Suvega's DKP
by Eliah Hecht 
Oct 4th 2007 at 7:11PM
Yesterday we talked about various loot-distribution systems. This prompted Suvega to write in and show us the DKP system he uses as guildmaster for his guild (Anarchy on Archimonde). I think it's very clever, so I'd like to tell you all about it. My own guild uses a standard zero-sum DKP, which I've been happy with so far, but I think this might be better.DKP is awarded to each member as follows:
- One point for showing up on time
- One point per boss kill (one more point if the boss goes down on the first try of the night)
- One point for staying to the end of the raid
- Triple points are earned if this is a "learning raid" on which many wipes will probably occur
The other important piece of this DKP system is a tax. Every week at server reset, everyone with positive DKP gets their DKP normalized: calculated what percent you'd have to take off the person with the most DKP to get them down to 65 DKP, and take that percent off everyone. For instance, if the person with the most DKP had 100, you'd reduce the DKP of everyone who was in the positive by 35%. This serves to curb inflation. If there was no tax, the people who had been around the longest would tend to be hopelessly ahead, and new raiders wouldn't get anything until the old raiders had gotten everything they wanted.
Suvega foresees a few objections someone might have to the system, and helpfully answers them; I'll just quote him directly here:
- DKP Tax -- You're stealing my hard work
By design. If you don't stay raiding, you'll lose your spot. Effort of last month is not as valuable as effort of this week. - Skipping non-useful raids -- why show up to Gruul?
Easily solved. If you want loot from them, you have to show up. If you want T5, you have to have enough gear to go to those raids (we aren't taking nubs to SSC), and finally if this becomes a problem, then we reduce the difference between progression and non-progression raids from 3x to 2x. Now farming raids are more valuable: problem solved. - This loot system is entirely unfair, I never get the items I want!
From my calculations, then you aren't helping the guild as much as the people who are getting the loot.
So, what do you guys think? Does this look like a good system?
P.S. since someone usually asks: the mod that makes loot windows look like the one in the screenshot is XLoot.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
gwarf Oct 4th 2007 7:21PM
Thats great and all but the usual problem with DKP is how do you figure out how to set the price of an item?
Combatc87 Oct 4th 2007 7:42PM
I've never liked DKP. Sure, with 40 people, it was the easiest way to get things organized. But with 10 and 25, it's easy to figure out who gets what, and get fair /rand rolls.
Aloha Oct 4th 2007 8:25PM
But /rand rolls are never really fair.
Greylen Oct 4th 2007 8:38PM
Our guild uses a system known as EP/GP, and as someone who is very critical of DKP systems, I think that this system works the best. How many points and when they are awarded is usualy up to the guild, but the overall system works like this:
You receive effort points for downing bosses/boss attempts/etc. Tougher bosses award more points. For example, Attumen might award 200 EP, Aran 300, and Prince 350, or you might have every boss worth the same amount. That decision is up to the guild.
You receive gear points when you pick up loot. There are many ways to determine how many "points" a particular piece of loot is worth, but there seems to be a general agreed amount in WoW.
Your "priority" is a ratio of effort point to gear points. Priority = EP/GP. As you raid more (and your effort point go up), you priority will go up. As you pick up gear (and your gear points go up), your priority goes down. The benifit here is that new members of the raid will gain priority quickly, so someone who is new to the raid scene will likely walk out with an epic (of their class/spec) on the first night. While raiding early on, your priority will go up quickly, so you will have better odds of getting loot. As you continue to raid, your priority will climb slower, an eventually you will even out with the rest of your guild.
Personally, this is my favorite DKP system that I have used thus far. The guild as a whole will gear up gradually, and newcommers wont have to worry about raiding for 2 weeks before they get a chance at an epic, encouraging them to raid. It works with guilds large and small, and is easy to determine who has highest priority.
Khallah Oct 4th 2007 8:38PM
@1 My guild, Eris on Jubei'thos, uses a simple formula for item valuation. Basically it's the Blizzard ItemLevel multiplied by a modifier for the slot the item is attached to.
For a more thorough explanation read here:
http://eris-guild.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5
TotalBiscuit Oct 4th 2007 8:56PM
@2 Random rolls are never fair, that's the point. 'Luck' is not fair. I know of no guild that rolls on items post-Karazhan. Somehow I don't think it's just out of force of habit.
TotalBiscuit Oct 4th 2007 8:57PM
@4 It's a nice system in theory, but how does it interface with the usual trial period new members must pass in order to receive full loot rights?
Bernardo Figueroa Oct 4th 2007 9:04PM
What is the addon in the picture?
Priea Feb 9th 2008 2:32PM
Its Xloot master. all the Xloot addons http://www.wowace.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Category:Addons&from=X
Tekkub Oct 4th 2007 9:49PM
DKP re-normalizing is a very good idea. My biggest issue with DKP is the inflation and unbalanced values I often see. Zero-sum is a step towards fixing this, but it usually doesn't take into account sharded items.
Zero-sum is just a start to me. If you're awarding x points for a boss down, you should be removing x points at the exact same time. If the item is sharded and you don't change DKP for shards, then DKP should not be awarded. If you grant bonus DKP (like learning raids in this example) then you need to also balance that with some sort of drain.
Really in the end you're creating another currency. Look at how Blizzard has to create cash drains to keep gold in check. Look at other games where the cash economy has gone to crap and new currencies are added (hell even WoW has done this)... I think the ideal solution is to reduce the random drop factor (there can still be some, but don't make them the norm), and co more towards a party-loot token system like the Heroic Badges. Hell, you could even take it two-fold and use progressive currencies if need be. Like say:
Heroic bosses drop Token X, a Primal (crafting mat) and one equipment (for randoming/DKP/whatever)
First half of kara bosses drop one Token X and one Token Y, and an equippable... maybe a zone-specific crafting mat too.
Second half of kara bosses drop one Token Y, one Token Z, an equippable, a crafting mat.
First half of Zul'aman bosses drop one Token Z, one Token QQ, one equippable and one craft mat specific to the new zone.
This would allow for a little of each world, and reduce the "need" for DKP systems by ensuring everyone gets equal currency for equal effort. Essentially it's putting the DKP design in Blizzard's hands instead of the guilds, meaning everyone across the board gets equal reward, and people don't get "screwed out of points" if a guild implodes or other drama happens (always does).
Dave Oct 4th 2007 9:57PM
Yet another needlessly complicated system when a common sense plan and random rolls would achieve the exact same results.
Want more loot? Raid more often. Pretty easy. Especially once you factor some normalization crap into the equation.
The reason most guilds don't just roll on things is very easy: Most guild members are inherently greedy and believe that a system gives them a better chance of something. Whether that's correct or not, does not matter.
Remember that most people believe that there are all sorts of BS explanations on why certain loot drops in the first place, like whoever the raid leader is influences the seed significantly enough to make sure that something does or doesn't happen. (insert your own favorite paranoid guild leader's stupid and unsubstantiated theory on why pally loot always drops when you don't have a paladin in the raid). People like to believe that they're not just unlucky, even outside of a video game. When confronted with a situation that's absolutely random, most people are terrified of the results not going in their favor. So, people invent systems to theoretically take out the randomness..
It mostly doesn't work any better, but it makes people feel better. That's why people use it. Look up some gambler's fallacies, and you can really start to analyze why people do these things, and why they ultimately don't even work.
Eliah Hecht Oct 4th 2007 10:06PM
Dave: I used to think that way about DKP systems as well, that they were unnecessary and basically only used because of superstition and bad reasoning. Then I read a very nice numerical analysis of (0-sum) DKP vs. random rolls, with the following conclusion: both end up with the same effect of more raiding -> more loot, however, in the DKP system, there is a lot less noise, and the graph is tighter. Does that make sense?
If not, check it out here: http://padwen.tripod.com/
rick gregory Oct 4th 2007 10:36PM
@13... precisely.
The weighted roll system I described in my comment to the last post in this series works fine... it compensates for a string of bad rolls (which is just probability at work), rewards attendance and doesn't penalize people for silly things. Anyone who doesn't think random assignment is fair is either 1) playing with greedheads who roll on stuff they can't use or 2) ignorant of how probability works.
SaxxonPike Oct 4th 2007 10:59PM
Blazewrath/Hellscream here. DKP is evil. It makes people greedy. I have been an officer in 3 major raiding guilds on Malygos, Alexstrasza, and Suramar servers before moving to Hellscream with some friends. They've all dealt largely with DKP systems: some complex; some simple. In every case, it's caused members to get upset and leave. Sometimes it's because one guy's got a lot of points and every time there's an upgrade for him, no matter how marginal, he takes it over someone who might actually need it a whole lot more (which then leads to my next point...) Sometimes it's due to the same people going all the time due to their gear. It makes gear acquisition overly competitive. It makes the rich richer and the poor out of luck.
However, I currently reside in a guild that has since done away with DKP in favor of using /rand rolls. It's a bunch of much friendlier folks than I've been with in the past. One item per run, unless no one wants a dropped item and it would otherwise be disenchanted. Main characters get preference over alts. We have quickly and EVENLY geared everyone in raids using this system.
That's my two cents, though. You can't really please everyone with one system.
Basil Oct 5th 2007 12:05AM
Here's the system my guild uses. Its a balance between a point system and random rolls. I think it manages keep a much better balance between casual raiders, new guildies, and hardcore guildies.
Here:
The Bonus System awards players for attending raids by giving them improved odds when it comes time to roll on desirable items. If it’s your very first raid you’ll just be rolling 1-100, but someone who has been on a dozen or more raids before could be rolling as high as 85-185. There is still a chance for the first-timer, but those who have been around longer and still haven’t won many (or any) items will have a better chance to win. Here are the details of how the system works:
At the end of each raid, every participating member will receive +5 to their bonus total. Members will receive this bonus even if they were late or had to leave early, so long as they were an active participant for the time they were there. This applies to ALL members of the raid, whether they are in the guild or not.
If an item you want drops, you can either roll with or without your bonus. If you do NOT use your bonus (or if it is your first raid with us), your roll will be a straight 1-100. If you use your bonus, your roll will be X-100+X where X is your bonus. For example, 5-105, 25-125, 40-140, etc… You roll by typing /random 40 140.
§ If you use your bonus and WIN the roll, your bonus is immediately set to 0. (Note that it will still be increased to 5 at the end of the raid. Also note the exception below for bonuses higher than the cap.)
§ If you use your bonus and LOSE the roll, your bonus remains where it is (and will still increase by 5 at the end of the raid).
The maximum bonus you can use is 60-160.
You will be able to accrue more then the max bonus you can use. It is unlimited. For example, if you have a 110 bonus, you can still only roll 60-160. If you win the roll, you will end up with a 25 bonus (110 minus 85). In this case you would also receive the standard 5 bonus at the end of the raid, giving you a total bonus of 30 for the next raid.
The way it works out is that each guildie new or casual gets fair odds to win an item but that the hardcore raiders over a longer amount of time have increased odds of getting what they want. The more you raid the better your odds, but even if you rarely get to raid because of family/work/whatever you still get fair shots at loot and gearing up.
freehugz Oct 5th 2007 2:11AM
I think people miss the point of DKP. It's about keeping people in the guild, keeping them happy and giving geared players a reason to go to raids.
Megalomaniac Oct 5th 2007 2:11AM
@everyone/wowinsider staff: Really good string of posts and comments, it's good to see wowinsider provide some stimulating discussion about some really interesting aspects of the game!
@4
This seems like a pretty good system overall, and its definitely worth using as a base loot system to be modified to fit a specific guilds needs.
@10
The issues with /rand aren't about it not being fair in the long run, it's about weighing item drops to favor the people who consistently show up for raids, while discouraging people from winning a few epics and then rolling alt after alt after alt and winning epic over epic over epic etc. The whole concept is to bend the distribution of goods in a way that allows for easier, more sensible progression for everyone. This benefits casual members much more than people give credit.
@13
Not all dkp systems end in doom/destruction. It has always bothered me that people DO end up spending their dkp on minor upgrades over people who the item would be a major upgrade. I think one of the failings of dkp systems as they stand is that they don't mobilize for Progression/Learning versus Farm status in a way that treats casuals and hardcore members fairly. One suggestion I've always thought of (but no one wants to do in my guild), is that during progression attempts, we do something where people can only spend dkp iff it's for your main spec AND it isn't a trivial upgrade. Defining what is/isn't trivial becomes the issue, but I think most reasonable people have a good sense of if an upgrade is a trivial upgrade. After an encounter is on farm, then open up the dkp pool for everyone/anyone. By this time, your hardcore raiders have spent most dkp on their main spec anyhow, so your casuals will be able to grab some nice stuff alongside the people who really made it possible for everyone to raid anyhow.
@14
"Its a balance between a point system and random rolls."
The system you described seems like it's got more overhead than a traditional dkp system, and I've looked it over a few times now and it really only breaks down to a complicated /rand. I don't really see how anyone can see this as a compromise / balance between dkp and rolling. I COULD see this working for kz (mainly b/c kz is rand anyhow), but I doubt any guilds working with 25 man content will even consider (or should) using something like this. When your guild starts working on the 25 man content, something like what @4 described (modified to fit your guilds needs) looks pretty nice overall. There are some nice alt-dkps that people have mentioned, like 0sum and relational dkp, which actually favor casuals and hardcore members better than random distribution. Read the link that Eliah Hecht posted and you'll see. Aside from that though, I think even what the OP suggested as a looting system works well as long as you have players who want to keep the game fun and honest.
Helvetica Oct 5th 2007 2:34AM
Studied a lot about DKP, and our guild (a casual one doing Kara) uses an ingame addon called "EPGP". This addon is very similar to Suvega's system AND have a smart automated system to set item values.
http://code.google.com/p/epgp/wiki/WhatIsEPGP_v2
Cheapcoil Oct 5th 2007 2:45AM
@16 exactly... if ur there only for the gear u might aswell pvp till next expansion and wait for ooo shiny greens to come out...
If ur actually interested in progressin and less worries, use a moslty rand roll system with obvious logic... if some one gets an epic, theyre helping progression and thats what its all about right??? THIS would... over the long run make people with more time raiding getting more loot, and helping the raid more. If someone leaves with all ur epix, screw them, theywont experience more progression, and lore, but will get sorely disappointed at the next expansion when thier gear is severely ouddated, while uve had fun bringing down boss after boss using strategies and ur time... gear in WoW is just to stop new 70's to go into an instance that they should experience later, building a linear progression.(its also obviously to reward people in bgs, but people in bgs usually have the arena gear.
hope this cleared ur minds...
Savahn Oct 5th 2007 3:58AM
Hmm I'd like to write in about our method, as it is quite different from normal used systems, but where to mail?