A Rogue class review by WoW's European players
by Dan O'Halloran 
Oct 6th 2007 at 6:00PM
In the past, MVP Schwick of the European forums has solicited players for their opinions about how their class can be improved. Now he has put out a call to the readers for a list of issues concerning the Rogue class in particular.Schwick read through all the rants, complaints and well-thought out solutions. Then he compiled the best suggestions into one post. In it he covers Rogue issues with PvE, PvP, itemization, talents, abilites and combo point abilities.
There is no guarantee that the Blizzard devs will see the list, but if they are looking for class issues, this thread would be a great place to start.
Check it out and let us know if you feel anything needs to be added.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Aldrel Oct 6th 2007 6:51PM
I can sum it up for anyone who doesn't feel like reading it: "Wahhhh wahhhh wahhhh. QQ. QQ. QQ. Wahhhhh."
hpavc Oct 6th 2007 6:56PM
Very odd list, seems to be a overpowered shopping list imo. Percent versus fixed based expose armour?
The "if x happens the fight is over" issues he has, I think he means the rogue vanishes or sprints away and stealths, not the rogue instantly dies.
I think this guy needs to head over to warcraft movies and check out some roguecraft. Using all your cooldowns in a fight or complaining about a resist or a miss on a special ability in such a manner and forgetting that you have an obscene number of options at your disposal as a rogue is ... blasphemous. I can only assume its because of the summary nature of the concerns.
But seriously the "Cold Blood" concerns seems way too insane. Put the same cooldown as Recklessness then imo.
The 'rogues cannot pure stunlock kill outright who has in excess of 10k of health' is down right amusing.
The itemization need more love ... sure.
Crux Oct 6th 2007 6:59PM
Thanks, just what we needed, you know this only perpetuates trolling and QQ'ers. If I wanted to see "moar QQ", I think we all know where to look.
Thanks...thanks WoWInsider.
Charlie Taylor Oct 6th 2007 7:18PM
The only concern he brings up that I agree with is the viability in raids, if I weren't the T2 leader, an officer, and had not been in more than two guilds with the GM I would never raid! I've said it before and i'll say it again, I feel useless during large aoe pulls, hardly inflicting any damage not to mention the fact that my placement on the DPS meters takes a huge hit then.
outforprophets Oct 6th 2007 7:22PM
Complaining about stunlocking? orly? I have some complaints about getting stunlocked too
opiv421 Oct 6th 2007 7:39PM
@ 4 Wow you DPS meter takes a hit during only large AOE pulls along with every other class except mages and locks... you should be concerned about DPS meters on boss fights where the rogues in our guild consistently rock the charts. Rogues are FINE.
Buff stunlock?! After I saw this I couldn't take the rest of the post seriously. Try playing a priest with 0 escape abilities. Don't even say fear, it'll break even if the player mouses over it. It's GG anytime I'm against a rogue.
I'm tired of these rogue QQ posts, you are the most babied class in the game. Other classes have far more important concerns that needed to be addressed.
Argent Oct 6th 2007 7:40PM
no viability on aoe pulls? like there's a blue million of those in raiding. maybe we should give mages and warlocks 50% dodge and rogues pbaoe. yay!
nevermind that on almost any boss fight rogues rule the damagemeters pretty handily. if you don't bring at least a few rogues to any given encounter, you're just gimping your raid.
there are a few things they touch on that could stand improvement -- evis really isn't terribly good the further along you get and vanish really could stand to be fixed properly, f.e. T5 getting a bit more +hit wouldn't suck either.
i did have to laugh at the 'ranged vs. rogue' bit -- i remember pvp'ing on my rogue for the first time and thinking 'wow, it's just like playing my paladin!'
rick gregory Oct 6th 2007 7:51PM
Actually, it's a good list.
Some of the issue we face is poor itemization - outside of daggers there are few 81+dps weapons, hence you HAVE to Arena to get upgrades. Since daggers no longer has any advantage over the other weapon specs, there's high demand for other weapons, but those just aren't in the game.
Now, this isn't terrible, but if you're a raider it would be nice to have upgrades from doing the thing you like vs having to do something else to get the things that most affect your viability, your weapons.
RE the stunlocks... The problem is that Blizz scaled stam up, but not the damage we can do. While I'm sure that stunlocks aren't fun if you're on the recieving end, they're one of the few tools we havr against powerful high armor classes. And... you know... fears suck too... shall we nerf fear for locks? :)
probably the worst thing is that Eviscerate just doesn't scale. I can crit a SS and get close to the same damage as a 5 combo point Evisc. I know fire mages that regularly crit for 8k... now, I'm supposed to be the class that does the best single target damage. They've always said this and reiterated it at Blizzcon... but my largest crit is about 2500 and that's with 1866AP... which is very high for a rogue. Also, those combo points cost me a lot of energy to get. Yes, I did damage while getting them, but... shouldn't a finishing move be signficantly MORE powerful than a normal strike? A 1k evisc compared to a 500 SS... meh.
Me, I'd like to add in a new cc method, something ranged... maybe a blowdart. Let's me stun mobs that are hard to sap... or even works on things that aren't sappable.
quaunaut Oct 6th 2007 8:39PM
As someone who isn't a caster who either can't play their class(Seriously Priest, if you're shadow, and you can't kill a Rogue, you have issues), or have no idea how tempermental the class is, I can say the list isn't that bad.
I don't agree with everything in it- but most, yeah.
#1: Stunlock becoming useless in high-level arenas making Rogues useless in Arenas. This is pretty true. Fixing it would be difficult to do though without making them overpowered, so what I'd like to see is perhaps the Imp Kidney Shot talent changed back to the way it was- thats 3 extra seconds of stun, which could *possibly* fix the issue.
2. PvE DPS capabilities: I've gotta agree. Later on, Warriors can match Rogues pretty easily(In Kara , Gruul, Mag and early SSC, there just isn't the gear. It doesn't exist), and suddenly they are useless. Before 2.2, this was okay because Haste had a lot more benefits for a Rogue than it did for a Warrior(Before rage normalization gave your average Fury Warrior so much Rage they literally didn't have to worry about the incoming supply, as Heroic Strike could *always* be lit while BT and WW were still going at full bore). Either Rogue's return from haste needs to be buffed(perhaps a combat tree 10 or 20% increase to all haste effects?), or something. The debuff-based stuff sounds interesting, but I think it would be hard to have a reason to bring more than 1 Rogue, without completely demolishing the encounter by stacking a few Rogues to get tons of effects.
3. Stealth needs a lot of fixes across the board, but more of a focus needs to be making Rogues not useless when Stealth is gone. Make them immune to all immobility effects with Imp Sprint(from combat tree), and a lot of their issues go away without them being overpowered. Or, give all of them Preparation.
Note: Rogue hasn't been my main for over 2 years, this is just what I see between my other 3 70s(Warrior, Shaman, Paladin).
Matthew Rossi Oct 6th 2007 9:24PM
On the subject of other classes matching or exceeding rogue DPS:
There is more than one tanking class. There is more than one healing class. There is more than one magic/ranged DPS.
There should be more than one melee DPS class.
The secret is in giving rogues some other viability in PvE, not in buffing their DPS. It's as high as it needs to be. And they need absolutely no buffs in PvP - they are, frankly, too powerful against catsers as it is.
Richard Oct 6th 2007 9:49PM
@10 - Every other class gets a CHOICE as to their role - Rogues DON'T.
If you roll a rogue - you roll DPS. That's it.
Rogues *should* be the highest DPSers in a raid, without exception. Period. And due to their lack of utility, and the itemization of other classes (DPS warrior for prime example), they're oftentimes not.
Charlie Taylor Oct 6th 2007 9:52PM
@Matthew
You're right, there is more than one tanking and more than one healing class, but each one of them have advantages over the other. Rogues don't bring any utility besides DPS to a raid, and that is just wrong.
As far as those commenting on my AOE argument; EVERY class besides the rogue has SOME sort of aoe in at least one of the talent trees. Rogues get blade flurry, which just affects one other target, which does next to nothing in a raid environment!
Byron Oct 6th 2007 10:05PM
@8:
"And... you know... fears suck too... shall we nerf fear for locks? :)"
I'm a lock, and Fear has gotten nerfed just about every patch since 2.0. It is now 10s/6s/3s/Immune, almost always breaks on DD, and chance to break on each DoT tick.
Both Fearlock and Stunlock are very unpleasant for anyone on the receiving end, and I do support Bliz's recent efforts to reduce character-control-removing CC as a deciding factor in pvp. My only concern is that as they nerf warlocks (and maybe rogue stunlock too, but not a rogue class expert), they're not compensating by giving us something to make up for the loss.
Locks at least have no escape abilities - no Vanish, Ice Block, Blink, Bubble, or anything like that. We rely on our cc for survivability. We have plenty of it, but as it gets slowly nerfed with no buffs to compensate, it worries all warlocks. We really don't want to return to the days of being free HKs. And seeing our nemesis, the one class that can best wtfpwn us, complain about us, is annoying at best.
Erika Oct 6th 2007 11:34PM
Well as a lock you get a pet of some sort and if you don't have it out there might be something wrong. If you have your vw out you get sacrifice. It takes up a little damage but can be dispelled. Hunters get fein death breaks combat. Pali's get so many bubbles its crazy, Mages get iceblock or frost nova/blink, Warriors are kinda lacking in this department but have outrageous amounts of stamina. Shamans get earth bind totem and shocks that slow down. Druids get entangling roots. 1.5 cast which is fairly fast. Rogues get something that breaks combat but gets dispelled by any type of damage.
Cheapcoil Oct 7th 2007 2:00AM
@8 lol... nerf fear for locks u must be outta ur mind...
Theyve already nerfed it twice in the last few patches
@11 QQ more what can mages do they can only dps... and what about locks. Also, pallies are usually made healers cos of the shortage, and so are priests, and warriors are usually tanks as well..., there is often a set role for the class, so dont complain, rogues dps enuff, and so do mages. U shudnt be concentrating on the dps meters unles ur a snob that is egotistical and bragging about ur wtfpwnage dps. if ur raiding, look at the overall dps of the raid, and dont compare urselves to others.
@post
stunlocks are unfair, and they shouldnt be buffed no matter what rogues say. Being able to take down a warr at full hp with only stunlocking is just BS...
Heilig Oct 7th 2007 2:36AM
I always have to laugh at classes that are more powerful than other classes being brought into balance and then saying "But now we need something else to recover what we lost." You lost it because you were overpowered in the first place. It's called balance. Welcome to the real world, where the mortals live.
It is silly to complain about being able to stunlock a geared warrior to "only" 50% of his health.
It is silly to complain about fear being nerfed. Nobody else gets to take away half my life while I'm CC'd.
I would never think about complaining about my Divine Shield. "OMG make it so pally tanks can DS and not lose aggro. DS isn't powerful enough already." Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it?
And as far as complaining about losing to ranged classes: Just what the hell did you think the ranged classes were for? If you want a chance against them, sneak up on them. That's why you have stealth in the first place. I don't complain on my hunter that frost mages eat me alive. They're the counter to my class. Hunters and other kiting classes are the counter to rogues. Live with it. You don't get to rape every single class' face. Sometimes you just get pwnt. It's about time you guys joined the club.
Squee88 Oct 7th 2007 6:03AM
A well thought out article put together from an outsider to the rogue class imo. I never played rogue pre BC so i cant comment on how we used to be overpowered. The main problems that i have is that many classes have 15%+ stun resist and it really hurts to have a cheap shot or kidney shot resisted. Another thing is that eviscerate just blows period. A 5pt evis doesn't even do more damage that what a very low mutilate would do unless i'm fighting some 0 res clothie. Overall though i feel our class is pretty balanced in pvp, i don't really do much raiding so i cant say how i feel about that.
@15 "Being able to take down a warr at full hp with only stunlocking is just BS..." lol, please point me to a warrior (who isnt a scrub in all greens) that i could stunlock 100-0. It's not possible so dont even say it is.
kidsmoke Oct 7th 2007 6:45AM
I LOVE how you all came in here and whined about rogues whinning... lawlfest...
Seriously as someone who just retired their rogue to alt status... the first thing I call out in Arenas is a rogue, because they are so easy to kill.
The bottom line is that things have changed. Stamina has increased to a rate that rogues are no longer the OMG OP class they were when WoW launched.
Rogues however are by nature a cheap class due to their stealth nature, but if you lose to one im sorry... you are either playing an exceptional rogue or you just plain suck.
In PVP rogues need better anti-kite measures, because sprint in its current form is terrible.
In PVE rogue dmg is exceptional... up through Kara, and begins to decline after that, because the class is less built on its gear and more built upon its weapons of which rarely exist off hands except for daggers which is currently not viable. As for the moron who spouted 50% dodge get a grip as wow has progressed rogues are getting less and less AGI applied to their gear and more +crit (which is lawl nerfed as is due to resilience) +stm and +AP which is also a LAWL stat due to the nature of rogue abilities. Our bleeds are better affected by AP than our direct melee. Rogues are as stated before fragile. Which also makes them a liability.
I can understand people hating on rogues as they are a cheap class by nature, but they are not the OP class they once were... get over it.
Greeneyed Oct 7th 2007 7:18AM
Sounds like their community MVPs are actually useful. Not that it matters. The developers for this game are horrible. They added a threat reduction to shadowstep??? LOLOLOL
rick gregory Oct 7th 2007 3:10PM
@Byron,
If you can't beat a rogue as a lock, something's wrong with you. You can fear me, deathcoil me, dot me up... of COURSE you can take half my hp while I'm CCed... if you're good.
An I know they've nerfed fear... my point is that, if they're going to allow things like fear and stunlocking, they need to keep them powerful enough to be useful.
As for PvP... there's a differnce between world PvP and Arena. Arena is very artificial... the other team knows where you enter from, the arenas are small, they know who many people on the team. Doing 3v3 and you only see 2? There might be a rogue... so start spamming flares, arcane expl, etc...
As for other classes dpsing... I'm fine with that - but my rogue should be able to do better single target damage that ANY other class. If I can't... why bring me? I have no buffs, I'm squishy so I'll suck up more healing that a dps warrior... I can't switch forms and OT or heal like ferals can (no, they're not healers... but they can toss a heal out in an emergency - an option I don't have). And my one form of CC requires me to get up to the mob being CCed, the mob HAS to be a humanoid, it can only be applied OOC, and it can't be reapplied. So great single target damage is the only thing I really bring. multi-target damage? Mages rule and that's fine. But right now we start declining in Kara and don't come back into our own until BT... and most rogues will never see BT.
Most of the stuff we need is better itemization and, perhaps, a haste talent. Blizz can go a long way on the itemization in 2.3 depending on the ZA loot... we'll see if they do.