Retribution Paladins in patch 2.3: buffed or betrayed?
by Robin Torres 
Oct 12th 2007 at 1:00PM
Tom Chilton aka Kalgan has been promising buffs for Ret Pallies since BlizzCon. He specifically has stated that there would be changes made so that Retribution would be more than just a leveling spec, such as sustained DPS instead of just burst and less reliance on Spell Damage as a stat. Retribution Pallies are definitely getting some love in patch 2.3, but is it enough and is it balanced? Many Paladins on the forums say no to both. They want Spell Damage to go away as a need for Pallies and a way to manage threat and they want these changes in 2.3.
Wolfblitzer calls Kalgan out as a liar in his very popular protest post, quoting from our BlizzCon coverage directly (though without credit). He also claims that Kalgan had promised to talk about threat reduction for Ret Pallies soon, but that the post was deleted.
Blue poster Drysc stated (accurately) that there was no date or patch number associated with all of the changes discussed previously. His full response to the protest is after the jump.
We've given Retribution Paladins some nice damage increases in 2.3, and we're going to be keeping an eye on those changes and what other adjustments they may require. We're still looking at the possibility of a passive threat reduction, but we want to see how the changes we have look and play before making any final decision.
I never saw, nor believe there was any mention that any threat reduction changes were promised, or specifically said to be coming in 2.3. Aside from that, not all of our plans to make game changes are "right now" or "the next patch". I know it's easy to make those assumptions because that's what's convenient, but it's just not always the case. Things can change, game development does evolve, especially in an environment such as an MMO.
I think I'm getting a bit pessimistic, that doesn't necessarily apply here, but I'm trying to impress upon you that things can and often do change. Saying we agree with something doesn't mean the change can be made right away, and looking into something certainly doesn't mean we're making a change.
Sometimes we do need to be able to express that we'll be looking into something without being verbally assaulted when the outcome doesn't meet chimeric expectations. If there's any question on why we may take various tactics in communicating with everyone, including limiting how and when we do so, this would be a great example.
On the one hand, Paladins do wear plate and can handle the extra attention that their new DPS will attract in groups. In raids, however, pulling aggro off the main tank can cause a wipe, no matter how robust the gear. As far as the reliance on Spell Damage, it does seem odd that they didn't include this change with all of the other class and gear changes in patch 2.3.
Are the Retribution changes too DPS oriented without addressing the gear and threat issues that are more important to Pallies? Or are Paladins being too impatient and should be happy to wait until the expansion if they have to?
| Buffed! The changes are good. The others will come. | |
|---|---|
| Betrayed! Blizzard should make good on their promises. | |
| Polls are fun! |
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
ILYAS Oct 12th 2007 1:17PM
Betrayed.
CthulhuCalling Oct 12th 2007 1:18PM
I've only very rarely heard of a Ret pally being able to pull aggro off a tank. I think it would have to be a combination of a really well geared paladin, a bad tank and someone forgot to turn off Righteous Fury.
Threat reduction? Blessing of Salvation. Blessing of Protection in a pinch. Sounds like someone wants an aggro dump. Welcome to Warrior world.
Paladin DPS is largely based on spell damage, otherwise they'd be warriors with bubbles. They cast spells, their damage should be coming from them. If you want melee dps, roll Rogue or Warrior.
SurpriseB Oct 12th 2007 1:32PM
@2
Clearly you have never played a Ret pally, or have had to tank against one. Even the best geared tanks have trouble with Ret's pulling aggro simply do to their burst damage. It's no different then a fire mage Pyroblasting something back to back to back. It causes so much threat that a sometimes just can't keep up. Ret pally's rely on spell crit and damage AND melee crit and damage. All it takes is a Seal of Command to proc and crit then another crit and BAM they have the aggro.
Also, saying they should be using Salvation is a cop-out. They shouldn't have to sacrifice damage increasing buffs, hurting the overall party/raids dps, just to prevent an accidental aggro pull.
Are there trinkets that can reduce aggro? Sure, but every other class, which now includes Furry warriors, has a way to reduce threat/aggro in some way except Ret pally's.
Try researching or playing a class to it's full capability before making uneducated posts.
Senpai Oct 12th 2007 1:32PM
CthulhuCalling, just because you havent seen a ret paladin pull aggro doesn't mean it does not happen. It happens all the time. A geared ret paladin in a raid can pull aggro very, very easily- easier than any other DPS class, really. They have absolutely no threat reduction except for Blessing of Salvation, which every other DPSer has... so technically, they're still the highest threat DPSer.
Due to the spikey nature of their DPS, its almost impossible to predict your threat generation. You can get no procs and have abysmal damage, and suddenly get a Windfury proc full of crits, along with a Command proc, immediately before/after a Crusader Strike... and now you are a bloodstain on the ground.
Ret paladin DPS is unpredictable, and they have no inherent threat reduction, therefore they pull aggro like crazy if they actually have the gear necessary to actually do any damage as a ret paladin.
Bonni Oct 12th 2007 1:44PM
Paladins pull aggro all the time, and will continue to do so (now even more so). This is due to the spike nature of paladin damage, and the way a paladin must gear for high crit/burst in order to sustain dps (ie. Vengeance). Blessing of Protection and Divine Shield do not effect nor wipe aggro, they place you in an immunity phase similar to iceblock, and your position in the aggro table returns to the same place once the immunity drops, you may drop from stopping DPS but not because of the spell. Additionally, berserker stance and battle stance have had a built in passive threat reduction for a very very long time (to prevent them being viable dps tank stances). I'd love to be in warrior world, go ahead and toss threat reduction for the paladin(not the group) on Sanctity aura (our zerker equivalent).
With regards to the Blessing of Salvation buff, this would be acceptable if it were not for the fact that the buff is extendable to every other dps class in your raid as well. This means that the buff is for all intents and purposes a wash. Paladins will still have to watch aggro closer per dps, than all of the other dps classes in the raid due to the difference in passive threat reduction. That is of course unless you are proposing that no other dps class should get blessing of salvation?
Paladin DPS is in not based on spell damage now, it's been proven over and over that AP/Crit are the best stat point usage for raising Retribution DPS due to the large white damage factor, the melee base for SoB/SoC, and other scaling factors in the tree. The problem is that to maximize this you must pretty much ignore anything that will upgrade the spell portion of your damage. Itemization just doesn't allow you to up both. Ret paladins also wanted something similar to the shaman AP to spell damage talent to help with this problem, but we didn't get that either.
The patch is a large buff to paladin dps, I agree with that. The problem is that we won't be able to USE that dps because of the threat problems we're seeing already.
Dipstick Oct 12th 2007 1:43PM
The changes so far are good, and I'm hoping for a rethink of the need for spell damage will become apparent in WotLK (removing it from Retribution and replacing it with str/AP).
Threat reduction? Look how long the shamans were asking for it before it was implemented. Waiting to see what this patch will be like means that passive threat reduction for Paladins is a long way off.
tripp Oct 12th 2007 1:50PM
As a Shadowpriest I take Blessing of Salvation over every other Pally blessing, why should a dps Pally be any different? Pulling aggro on a Raid boss equals death and the classes that don't have an aggro dump (like Shadowpriests/Shamans/Moonkins/etc.) need Salv to not only stay alive but increase your dps. Yes, Blessing of Salvation raises your dps because it raises the ceiling for you to pull aggro off the tank. If there is no pally in my group? then I am screwed for a blessing, something a Ret Pally will never have happen.
Also, every class capable of burst damage knows they need to stay under a certain amount of MT aggro to avoid an accidental pull.
rick gregory Oct 12th 2007 1:49PM
"
Also, saying they should be using Salvation is a cop-out. They shouldn't have to sacrifice damage increasing buffs, hurting the overall party/raids dps, just to prevent an accidental aggro pull."
Um... I use this as a rogue so that I don't pull aggro. Do I sacrifice my personal dps for the good of the raid? Yep - it's called teamwork.
Blizz is right - they didn't promise all of their changes in 2.3, nor are the 2.3 changes necessarily live. What if they rolled out wholesale changes to ret pallies and found out that those changes completely unbalanced the game and they needed to modify or remove some of them? Right... cries of 'nerf' all over the place.
It's sad how people will whine about things unless they get exactly what THEY want - which all to often resembles and "I Win" button.
Smurk Oct 12th 2007 1:51PM
Missing poll option:
/me calls out for healing!
Avrail Oct 12th 2007 1:53PM
@3
That is interesting. Pallies force Salv on othes so that they don't pull aggro off the tank, but refuse to use it themselves because it wouldn't let them maximize their abilities. I am not just referring to Ret pallies only, but Healadins as well. Hypocrisy at it's finest....
Bonni Oct 12th 2007 1:53PM
@7
I'm sure you use feint (aggro reduction), vanish(aggro wipe) and every other aggro reduction ability you have as well. Bottom line is the distance between your threat and the threat ceiling is GREATER than the distance a paladin has given the same buffs. Even given Blessing of Salvation
SurpriseB Oct 12th 2007 1:55PM
@7
Your joking right? Comparing a rogue to a Ret pally is like apples to oranges. Because you need salv is saying clearly have issues playing your class. Feint DROPS your aggro, if you are pulling aggro then your not using your available skills correctly. Unless you are duel-wielding legendary weapons, there is no reason an intelligent rogue should need salv. End of sentence.
Karl Oct 12th 2007 1:55PM
@2...I am guessing you havent played much with a Ret Pally. Our threat is huge...We crit a lot. My pally hits very hard in a short period of time. Our threat does not scale with our DPS either. I stopped playing my Ret quite some time ago becuase of this very issue. There is very little I can do to stop from pulling off of a tank.
I have my druid tank and my Pally tank as well. A Ret Paladin can easily take aggro away. I save my taunts just for him and the healer. True, in 5-mans, a Ret can just OT the mob if needed, but in a raid, they are going to be slaughtered quickly. They do not have the armor that a prot Pally does.
I don't know if I feel betrayed, but I regret not being able to play my original toon anymore. I am not a good healer, so please don't even go there. Tried and died. I can tank and DPS. I have 2 tanks already. There are a lot of other methods to change Paladin DPS besides removing spell damage. Honestly, I like the spell damage to be included. For one, Holy is not resisted. The mana required to play a Ret Pally is ridiculous though. I have to drink after almost each fight.
I have a novel idea...instead of spell power, lets try something like putting runes on my weapon...yeah...I like this idea...
Vaelin Oct 12th 2007 2:35PM
The buffs coming in 2.3 will definitely be nice, and long overdue in the case of some (undispellable seals, CS back at 6 seconds, etc.). As someone who sees different Paladin specs as encompassing their own, entirely different playstyles (Holy does little, if any meleeing, while Ret is all about melee and very little casting), and as one who prefers to melee, I've set myself on an almost exclusively PvP path. This means I set my Paladin in a small, relatively inactive guild with friends where I have no pressure to spec in a way I would dislike. That being said, we almost never do any PvE content together.
The new PvP system has treated me well. I'm nearly at the point where I'm in all-epics again, and I can pump out the damage numbers in certain situations to back it up. On the rare occasion that I do run a dungeon, the threat cap becomes abundantly clear. Those saying threat is not an issue with Ret are either poorly/improperly geared (lolspelldamage), lack skill in playing the spec, or have never been around a Ret Paladin worth his salt.
Suggesting that Ret Paladins wait until the expansion for a number of their more pressing issues is a poor solution. By then, the Death Knight class will be available and many (probably myself included) will have rerolled.
I wouldn't go all doom and gloom yet. The PTR hasn't even been up for a full day, and things are always subject to change. As I said in a forum post, people need to give it time. Copy your characters when you can. Go and run dungeons. Pull aggro and wipe horribly. Use the PTR suggestion UI to point out this still-gaping flaw. Take screenshots.
Worst case scenario, 2.3 goes live as-is and I'll lop more heads off than usual in PvP.
Ortai Oct 12th 2007 1:58PM
@3 The answer to your mage would be to stop pyroblasting, perhaps going to scorches with the occasiaonal fireball, etc.. The palidin answer is to smooth out your DPS perhps with spell dmage instead of crit. If you have a high crit, no wonder you all are pulling aggro, given the spikey nature of crit based damage.
Oh and stop it with the "You obviously have not played" crap.
AndrewS Oct 12th 2007 2:00PM
Yea, as a warlock, I get salv instead of something that could boost/protect me in other ways, DPS specs have to worry about threat, it's deliberate. Most DPS classes have to scale back aggro all the time. The problem is really caused by how aggro works. The way I understand it is that it takes less threat to aggro a mob in melee than it does to aggro one from range, so even doing less damage than me, a pally pulls more aggro.
Karl Oct 12th 2007 1:59PM
@8...Yes, every burst damage class should know to stay under the MT aggro range. The problem is, a Ret Pally has no way to do this other than to not ever hit the target. We don't know when we will crit. We dont know when we will miss with our hit, or hit physically, but miss with our spell. Until you play the class, dont make suggestions like this. Also, you get Blessing of Salv because there is not a +spell damage blessing available to you.
SurpriseB Oct 12th 2007 2:03PM
@8
Shadowpriest do pull a lot of threat simply because of the damage + healing combination. However, they do have talents that reduce threat cause by these abilities AND have fade encouraging enemies to stop attacking you. Ret pallys have NO passive threat reduction. That is what every is upset about. Shamans have a threat reduction totem. Why is it not used? Because that same threat reduction in a 5 man group also extends to your tank, which you do not want. Moonkins were given a threat reduction talent a couple patches ago. Most choose not to take it simply because it's under the Resto tree. Still, no ret passive threat reduction. Thats why everyone is upset about it.
Marwynn Oct 12th 2007 2:00PM
Sigh.
Blessing of Salvation... god why do people keep bringing that up? EVERYONE HAS BLESSING OF SALVATION DURING A RAID EXCEPT THE TANKS.
What is being asked for is inherent threat reduction while DPSing.
Believe it or not but Paladins can put out decent numbers if threat isn't an issue, it'll be much easier to do with this patch from what I've read, but the total potential DPS is limited by only one real thing: Threat.
Don't even try to bring the Bubbles into it, this is threat reduction not "ignored for a dozen seconds because you're immune".
Think things through please. BoSalv is applied to everyone but the tanks, what Ret Paladins are asking for, and were promised, was a slight discount on threat generation.
Right now Retribution Paladins have the lowest DPS and the highest threat with all the raid buffs that is given out.
"Oh but they're supposed to be healers and tanks..." you say, well too bad you're out of date. The devs want Retribution (or so they said) to be raid viable, there are quotes a-plenty out there, of them wanting to make it more than a levelling spec.
A boost in DPS output is great and all, but the underlying concern has always been about PvE damage sustainability. You have a slightly reliable damage Seal, a now-6 second attack, 8-second judgements, and still balancing all the damned stats out there.
Ortai Oct 12th 2007 2:01PM
Oh, and if you want to complain about itemization, welcome to the hybred world. Itemization for Enhancement and Elemental Shammies, dealing with different issues mind you,is just as quirky.