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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRetribution Paladins in patch 2.3: buffed or betrayed?
by Robin Torres 
Oct 12th 2007 at 1:00PM
Tom Chilton aka Kalgan has been promising buffs for Ret Pallies since BlizzCon. He specifically has stated that there would be changes made so that Retribution would be more than just a leveling spec, such as sustained DPS instead of just burst and less reliance on Spell Damage as a stat. Retribution Pallies are definitely getting some love in patch 2.3, but is it enough and is it balanced? Many Paladins on the forums say no to both. They want Spell Damage to go away as a need for Pallies and a way to manage threat and they want these changes in 2.3.
Wolfblitzer calls Kalgan out as a liar in his very popular protest post, quoting from our BlizzCon coverage directly (though without credit). He also claims that Kalgan had promised to talk about threat reduction for Ret Pallies soon, but that the post was deleted.
Blue poster Drysc stated (accurately) that there was no date or patch number associated with all of the changes discussed previously. His full response to the protest is after the jump.
We've given Retribution Paladins some nice damage increases in 2.3, and we're going to be keeping an eye on those changes and what other adjustments they may require. We're still looking at the possibility of a passive threat reduction, but we want to see how the changes we have look and play before making any final decision.
I never saw, nor believe there was any mention that any threat reduction changes were promised, or specifically said to be coming in 2.3. Aside from that, not all of our plans to make game changes are "right now" or "the next patch". I know it's easy to make those assumptions because that's what's convenient, but it's just not always the case. Things can change, game development does evolve, especially in an environment such as an MMO.
I think I'm getting a bit pessimistic, that doesn't necessarily apply here, but I'm trying to impress upon you that things can and often do change. Saying we agree with something doesn't mean the change can be made right away, and looking into something certainly doesn't mean we're making a change.
Sometimes we do need to be able to express that we'll be looking into something without being verbally assaulted when the outcome doesn't meet chimeric expectations. If there's any question on why we may take various tactics in communicating with everyone, including limiting how and when we do so, this would be a great example.
On the one hand, Paladins do wear plate and can handle the extra attention that their new DPS will attract in groups. In raids, however, pulling aggro off the main tank can cause a wipe, no matter how robust the gear. As far as the reliance on Spell Damage, it does seem odd that they didn't include this change with all of the other class and gear changes in patch 2.3.
Are the Retribution changes too DPS oriented without addressing the gear and threat issues that are more important to Pallies? Or are Paladins being too impatient and should be happy to wait until the expansion if they have to?
| Buffed! The changes are good. The others will come. | |
|---|---|
| Betrayed! Blizzard should make good on their promises. | |
| Polls are fun! |
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Whitburn Oct 12th 2007 2:04PM
Well I don't think Paladins need a threat dump.
a. Holy shield - makes you immune to damage and I think drops threat atleast for a while.
b. Trinkets ( from SL for example)could help.
c. Shrouding potions (same as the threat reducing trinkets)
Mahale Oct 12th 2007 2:05PM
None of you are really speaking very intellgently about this.
I dont' think that one ret paladin can speak for them all when he stated "why should we have to use salve" any ret paladin that is geared enough to be pulling aggro IS using salv already. Salv alone is not enough. What they are asking for is a passive threat reduction deep in their talent tree, not for an aggro dump.
If shaman and warriors can get it this patch (which they did) why not ret paladins? I don't see what is imbalanced by giving a ret paladin threat reduction it has 0 affect on pvp and will only server to up the number of ret paladins in the game.
the people complaining about the Paladin's desire for a threat reduction passive talent is the most baffling thing I've ever seen.
Rundll Oct 12th 2007 2:08PM
@11 don't generalise ret pallys like that, its wrong and any one thats played a ret pally properly in a 5man/raid knows you take salv first, unless you're in greens and your tank is in T6. You only BoMight yourself if another pally throws you the salv.
ninjasuperspy Oct 12th 2007 2:13PM
I'm a prot paladin. Man I like that perma-Blessing of Kings they added.
I've played Ret though and our spiky/unpredictable DPS is an issue. I hope you guys get the Threat Reduction with 2-Handers talent from the rumors. Shamans get Spirit Weapons, so I don't see why Paladins couldn't get passive threat reduction with two handers deep in the tree to keep it away from Holy Paladins.
Yes, I am aware of the lower threat coefficient part of Paladin Healing. But there are two types of Pro Healers, those that would overlook passive threat reduction and those who don't. The first kind are usually not that great at healing because they are dead.
Urthona Oct 12th 2007 2:12PM
Are the patch notes for 2.3 done? It's pretty much confirmed that there are unwritten changes, and changes continue to flow forth up to release.
Anyone on PTR notice any undocumented changes?
As the ret paladin issues have reached monumental proportions, I'm almost expecting a day of strictly Ret Paladin Changes to be announced soon.
Stephen Oct 12th 2007 2:12PM
Sounds like QQ from bad players.
All classes that spec into a crit-heavy pvp spec have difficulty managing aggro in raids. How is salvation a cop-out when most dps classes are begging for salv.
Ask a discipline spec priest that raids (if you can find one), or balance druids, or enhancement & elemental shamans. None of them whine as much as most ret paladins. I have a paladin and I'm happy for the damage buffs. I see ret as a pvp spec (and a very good one), and the class as a whole as one of the most desired classes in endgame raiding.
Liel Oct 12th 2007 2:18PM
man this sounds like the shaman forums lol
I retired my warrior for a pally and having fun with it. I have seen it read before and looking at all the trees can agree that Shamans are offensive hybrids and pallies are defensive hybrids. Your dps should never get equal to dps classes or even come close to be honest because of that whole plate/heal thing you get.
You pull agro but like all the benefits of being a healing plate wearing class, fury arms warriors pulled agro off me all the time when I was a guild MT and would sit there and just get hammered at least pallies have a few "oh shit" talents to keep themselves alive.
twh Oct 12th 2007 2:20PM
The ignorance of people is astounding.
#1 Ret paladin damage is not proportional to the amount of threat. In fact, one can be 10th on damage done and STILL beat the tank on threat.
#2 Salvation only returns the ret paladin to the same level as everyone else in the raid because everyone else has it too.
#3 The Bubble never has, and probably never will, wipe threat. It only puts you on ignore for the duration and then puts you right back on top when it's over.
4# A Ret paladin cannot simply stand back and let the aggro fall, because the time it would take for them to be in a safe place would pretty much having him standing there for longer than it would be helpful in a raid.
Bottom Line:
Ret Paladins NEED Threat Reduction!
CthulhuCalling Oct 12th 2007 2:25PM
@3
Strange you claim to know all about me, despite the fact that I've leveled a paladin all the way to 70. I did 1-65 as Retribution but found the Tankadin scene much more interesting. And since my main is a 70 prot warrior, I've tanked against just about every class/talent spec imaginable. Don't claim to know my experience. Yes, I can get some nice numbers with a huge 2 hander, and all the right judgements and seals up. Spam crusader strike. But I really don't see the damage output from a Ret pally that I do from a Fury warrior or your basic Marksman Huntard.
If a mage Pyro-POM-Pyros right off the bat, I let him die, or he ice blocks. Mages know better than that. Ret pally crits on a judgement? He's got 8 seconds before he gets to judge again, provided he specced for Improved Judgement. He might get a crit off of a Crusader Strike and a third crit off his 2hander while Seal of Blood is up, but this isn't any different from a lock going crazy with Nightfall procs, or a Hunter getting silly with his shots. Hunters Feign, Locks soul shatter, Rogues feint and vanish. If the pally actually does pull aggro, bubble up buttercup. That's why you have it. And while you're at it, cast Salvation on yourself rather than Kings or Might. Be a team player.
Your arguement that Ret paladins shouldn't take Blessing of Salvation is silly. It gets put on everyone else, but oh noes! Ret paladins shouldn't have to sacrifice THEIR DPS to lower their threat generation? But they insist on putting it on the locks, hunters and mages despite the fact that they usually want Wisdom or Might. Hypocricy, pure and simple.
I just find it exceedingly difficult to believe that Ret paladins are just DPS machines based on my experiences with them, and the fact that everyone is crying over how bad paladin DPS is to begin with, which is why the Ret spec is getting some attention now. It doesn't follow.
Chadwick Oct 12th 2007 2:29PM
I remember the days of managing your own threat with out the need of threat meters, passive abilities, spells or talents.
That being said a lot of things need fixing(my car for example), it just doesn't came right away.
Maz Oct 12th 2007 2:30PM
There's a certain (HUGE) amount of ignorance here.
There are only two classes in the game right now that don't get any form of passive threat reduction for DPSing: Hunters and Paladins. And one has an aggro wipe. Hunters.
Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection does not wipe aggro. It removes you from the table, you return where you were when it fades and during Divine Shield you attack at 50% less (untalented) and Blessing of Protection does not allow you attack at all.
Everyone else gets PASSIVE threat reduction either by default (Rogues, Cat Druids, Berserker Stance Warriors) or through talents (http://wowwiki.com/Threat). The end result is that even if a Paladin were to somehow generate DPS on the level of a Rogue or a DPS Warrior, they will generate more threat overall.
twh Oct 12th 2007 2:34PM
Also, you have a tendency to forget which class got laughed at during the class panels at Blizzcon.
That's the reason why they're upset. They don't want to be the laughing stock of the game anymore, however, it's nigh impossible when there's so many factors going against them and they don't have the tools to do it.
Bonni Oct 12th 2007 2:37PM
@29
Paladins generate higher threat with lower dps, that's the issue. Blessing of Salvation does not fix this, as it is STILL an across the board reduction which STILL leaves the paladin generating more threat than other dps classes, while producing lower damage. This is because GOOD paladins know when to hold back and they do so. The simple fact is most DPS classes have to do this, but paladins have to do this muchsooner due to the overall threat/damage mechanic. The fact that they cannot generate comparable DPS because of the aggro issue is the problem. NONE of a paladins skills lower aggro (bubble up buttercup only works if I stop attacking and you start gaining threat like there's no tomorrow - cause you've got 20% to make up in 12 seconds), the only way to do this is to stop attacking, and therefore greatly reduce your already limited damage potential. DPS wasn't the issue before, the issue has always been that we cannot dps to our potential due to the innate higher threat that we generate. Adding more damage just means we have to stop DPSing even earlier now, and will still have the same damage output in raids - so we don't pull aggro off our tanks.
Mayo Oct 12th 2007 2:49PM
I'm a holy paladin who occasionally respec's ret for fun on AV weekends, when I'm tired of healing in BT and Hyjal.
While I've never raided ret, I can understand the hardcore ret pallies wanting threat reduction, and I think in this case, with the changes being made to the ret tree - specifically the fact that Crusader Strike is being reverted back to 6 seconds from 10 - some kind of passive threat reduction in the top tiers of the ret tree would be a good, valid, necessary thing to have if the class is being buffed to be more "raid viable".
That said, I really don't care too much about it. I think overall ret pallies did pretty well in 2.3. If the ret paladin community truly wants to make a case about getting passive threat reduction added, then they need to get organized and start raiding hardcore on the PTR's.
They need to make a mission out of screen capping threat meters and showing how their even faster burst damage generates more aggro than before. If they make a valid case and present enough evidence in a clear and mature way, I suspect Blizz Dev's would be more open to making the change.
Simply posting on the paladin forums in threat after thread and bitching like 12 year old girls isn't going to help it. Prove it, folks. Prove it like mature adults with rational and logical arguments supported by reproducible evidence.
CthulhuCalling Oct 12th 2007 3:16PM
@33
You don't think other classes have this problem? Talk to an Arms or Fury warrior sometime. Yes, they have a .8 threat multiplier while in Berserker, but they make up for that in a big way. Other classes have an aggro dump, at least paladins have their bubbles. 12 seconds to make up a threat deficit? Not a problem at all, except maybe for the tank that lets a Ret paladin overtake him in threat. Both the tank and the paladin should be /slapped.
I think some people are forgetting two things:
1) It doesn't matter how much threat you're generating as long as it's less than the tank. Yes, there are a few fights where the threat list is the gimmick and you need to have specific people in certain positions. Your big DPS classes learn to regulate their threat, some of them with no way of dumping aggro. Maybe Ret pallies should learn as well.
2) Oh boo hoo, I had to stop smacking something. Now I'm not going to be on the top of the DPS chart. Sorry about your e-peen, I thought we were here to kill monsters. I kick people out of my groups who keep asking/spamming damage meter charts. If things die and your party doesn't you're doing your job. That includes knowing when to hit something and when to stop.
Dyermaker Oct 12th 2007 3:22PM
The problems Retribution Paladins (and I include myself in that list even though I currently raid mostly Holy at the moment) have right now is the way Blizzard is handling these things.
First, we know Blizzard understands the underlying issues of Retribution raid usefulness, sustained v. bursty DPS, threat reduction, and itemization. We know this because they have said so, both on forum posts and at BlizzCon 2007. Moreso, they claimed they are addressing these issues with patch 2.3. They cautioned that the path they were taking would not change PvP much, as they did not want to tip the scales of balance while boosting PvE raid roles. It was amazing, it is as if they understood what was going on.
Then the first round of pre-patch hints started coming out. Everything was PvP orientated. A few people started to notice and ask questions. Blizzard CMs said these were just a few of the changes that were coming, wait for the patch notes.
The patch notes came and what was different? Extended range on cleanse and a fix to under-ranking effectiveness.
Needless to say, people were upset. Here 2.3 is supposed to address the concerns that we know Blizzard understands. They acknowledged the issues, said when the changes would be coming, and told us that we'd be happy when we saw more when the patch notes came out. And yet, we have some changes to PvP and making the one thing that set Retribution apart from other Paladins available to other talent specialties. One could argue the change to Improved Seal of the Crusader places it very close and dear to a great Protection Paladin build, not a reason to bring a Retribution Paladin to a raid. Instead of lessening the number of stats needed by Retribution Paladins, implementation of Expertise is yet another stat that has to be accounted for.
And worse of all, Drysc comes to the boards and says that Kalgan never said they would be addressing threat reduction. Only, Blue Tracker knows better. Its one thing to not live up to your word, it is quite another when you boldly claim you never made those promises.
There are two ways you can view this. Either the claims that were made by developers at BlizzCon were misleading or the development team is woefully inadequate. Either way, its not pleasant. When you factor in the history (Fangtooth, Caydiem, Drysc, Tseric, and now Drysc again) it is very hard to believe it was just a mistake. You have to start believing this is a purposeful misdirection and obsfuscation of their true intentions.
0c7or0k Oct 12th 2007 3:59PM
christ! Pallys nerfed?? oh no!
Maybe now it wont take 2 MercGlad warriors, a mage, and a rouge to kill a single pally!
for shame Blizzard!
twh Oct 12th 2007 4:13PM
#37
Don'tcha know? The 'buffs' ret pallies got are simply repeals of the nerfs they got in 2.0.
Ironic, no?
twh Oct 12th 2007 4:36PM
er, by that, I meant that Crusader Strike was originally 6 seconds and Vengeance was 30 seconds, but after 2.0, it got nerfed.
Titanium Oct 12th 2007 5:37PM
Paladin ret buff?
It's a trap.