Officers' Quarters: Loot whores -- Are you their pimp?
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Let's talk about loot. Is any subject more controversial in the entire game? After all, the game itself is centered around loot, like it or not. Loot opens doors and conquers enemies. Without it, you'll only see a fraction of what the game has to offer at max level. Without it, you're going to struggle in battlegrounds and the arena. It's the only way to advance your character at the level cap. Currently, the best loot in the game essentially advances your character by 81 levels, to 151 (not counting certain legendary warblades). So it's no wonder that so much guild drama is the direct result of decisions about loot.
I'm not going to get into the topic of elaborate DKP systems, or "suicide kings," or any of the statistical methods that officers use to determine priority for a particular epic drop. Most guilds that raid use these systems, and for the most part they work well. I recommend them. Even though they might create some extra work, it's worth it in the long run to have an objective system to take the difficult loot decisions out of your hands. Because when you are the one who has to decide who gets the drop, you open yourself up for a lot of potential bickering and unpleasantness.
Sometimes, however, I find myself in this precarious position. Mostly this happens in Karazhan, because we don't use any kind of point system there. Why not? Well, since there's only 10 people in the raid, there's usually only one person (if anyone) who actually wants any given item that drops. We try to have one of each class represented, so that means there's at most two of any class, and those two same classes might have entirely different specs with different loot needs. Plus, if no one else wants an item, we'd rather have people take loot that isn't suited to their spec in case they wind up changing specs down the road (rather than sharding the drop). If we had to charge points for offspec loot, we'd do a lot more sharding than we already do now! Besides, it helps the guild when that bear druid can heal a 5-player dungeon or that DPS warrior can tank one in a pinch.
Maybe I'm way off, but I think a lot of guilds forego a point system in Kara for the same reasons. And if you do, you know there will be times when multiple people in a raid do want the same drop. When Zul'Aman launches in the next patch, we're going to find some drops that are much-desired and hotly contested. Every guild has those players who tend toward -- for lack of a better term -- loot whoring. Some are obvious about it. They'll roll on anything given the chance. Some are more subtle. They try to make convincing, logical arguments about why an item is better for them than someone else (when in reality it's just the opposite). If you're not paying attention, it's easy to fall into a pattern where you support and enable this behavior.
You can duck this responsibility by just letting anyone /random for loot, but that system has its own disadvantages -- mainly as a result of its sheer disregard for circumstance. For instance, do alts get to roll against mains? Do DPS-spec'ed players get to roll against healing-spec'ed players for healing gear?
In my guild, we try to make loot decisions based on two main factors: progression and fairness.
Back in the days of encounters like Onyxia, making decisions based on progression was simple. You geared up the main tanks first, then the healers, and then the DPS. Onyxia never enraged, so as long as you could keep the tank alive, the fight could go on as long as it had to in order to kill her. Now every boss enrages. And there are encounters like Gruul, where your success is based just as much on how fast you can kill him as your ability to keep the tank (and the rest of the raid) alive. So don't fall into the same pattern of tank above healer above DPS'er. That philosophy doesn't hold water anymore, so don't let your tanks and healers bully you into favoring them.
You still probably want the majority of your tank upgrades to go to a single tank when you're first starting to get a new tier of equipment, but don't neglect the other roles.
Progression-based loot decisions depend on every person in the raid choosing a dedicated role, whether it's healing, tanking, or DPS'ing. To ease progression, priority must be based on that role above all else. For example, Resto shamans should get healing gear upgrades over Shadow priests, even if it's cloth. Don't let that Shadow priest convince you to let him or her roll on every cloth drop just because he or she can equip them. If the priest is DPS'ing, those healing shoulders aren't benefitting the raid sitting in a backpack or bank slot. Yes, the shaman will probably replace the cloth with mail eventually. But for now, the raw healing stats are more important to the raid.
Progression also means making some sacrifices. If a drop is a small upgrade for one player and a huge upgrade for another player, it's in the best interest of the raid for the latter to receive the item (provided they show up more than once a month). I'm lucky in that most of my guild's members understand this idea and will pass when they compare the gear being replaced. My officers and I don't like to force people to pass in this particular circumstance. We'll ask the players what they're using in that slot so the raid can see the situation. We might even whisper the player who's getting the comparatively smaller upgrade just to make sure they are aware of the circumstances. But in this case, we don't force a pass. You can tell a lot about a player based on their decisions in these cases. It's knowledge that can come in handy down the road.
Hand in hand with progression comes fairness. You may be of the opinion that a Balance druid isn't as good as a warlock, or that a Fury warrior isn't as good as a rogue. But you can't base your loot decisions on that opinion and penalize players for not playing the right class. Everyone in the same role with the same loot needs must have equal priority to /random for a substantial upgrade. If you let the "pure" classes have all the best loot, say goodbye to those blessings and totems as all your hybrids search for fairer pastures.
Fairness also means balanced distribution. If two players want a drop, but one player has already received a big upgrade that night, the gear should pass to the player who hasn't gotten a drop yet. Be careful with this situation, however. If someone takes an item that they don't really care about just because no one else wanted it, then is told he or she must pass on something they really want because they already got a drop, they're going to be very unhappy with you! So try to keep in mind who got the big upgrades and who got the "meh" drops -- but don't judge it by the player's reaction alone.
Weapons, necklaces, rings, cloaks, and trinkets are usually the big drama items and the most likely to be whored after. So you might want to look at loot tables before you zone in and determine which roles and classes are going to get priority. Involve your class leaders in these decisions. Some items are just suboptimal for certain classes/specs for reasons that aren't always obvious if you haven't played that class/spec yourself. Take for example two highly coveted drops from Prince Malchezaar: Malchazeen and Light's Justice. Malchazeen is just too fast to be optimal for an Enhancement shaman, so a dagger rogue should get priority. Also, despite its paladin-themed name, Light's Justice isn't really an ideal weapon for Holy paladins, even with the extra +healing on it over Maiden's Shard of the Virtuous. Paladins just don't get much mileage out of spirit, unlike druids and priests.
As with any situation that can potentially lead to drama, consistency and communication are the keys. Once you've established certain standards and philosophies for distributing loot, stick with your system. Make sure everyone understands the system. And when loot is given to someone, explain why.
It's impossible to avoid any and all conflict over loot. But with a transparent system and reasonable officers making the decisions, you can keep the number of ugly conflicts to a minimum.
For all those guilds out there running Karazhan and (soon) Zul'Aman without points systems, how do you go about making these decisions? Which Zul'Aman drop is going to cause the most drama? My gold is on the Tiny Voodoo Mask. That trinket is pimp!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
rick gregory Oct 29th 2007 3:16PM
@18 - 'loot whore' doesn't mean who gets the most drops, but rather who tries to take every drop they can even if it's a minimal upgrade or offspec.
@10 - you started out well, but then got into how you give priority to certain classes - that way lies drama....
I like my guild's system - it rewards attendance, doesn't involve DKP and minimizes drama. WE use a weighted roll system combined with a one epic per night and master looter. It's like this:
1) Everyone starts rolling at 1-100. If you attend a night, you get 10 points, so your rolls on the second night start at 10-110. You get 10 points per night.
2) If you win something, your points reset to 0 (1-100 roll)
3) You're limited tyo one epic per night. If an item is about to be DE'd, you can take it even if you've won something, but you can't roll on an item if you've won an item already that night.
4) Loot is set to ML so that, if a rogue rolls on a caster cloth piece or something silly they can be called on it.
5) If a toon is an alt it doesn't matter - they're contributing THAT run just as much as another toon who's someone's main.
We're all reasonable people so we don't roll on weird stuff - I'd never roll against a hunter on the bow from prince or the King's Defender sword (I'm a rogue).
gurdaw Oct 29th 2007 3:36PM
EU realms.
player wilfy from the guild delirium on burning blade realm is a loot whore.
true story.
ds Oct 29th 2007 3:41PM
@11 I gathered that the author's point is that if your group can DPS well, even average tanks and healers can be tolerated when you need to burn down an enraged raid boss quickly. DPS spec'd toons should get DPS gear over tanks/healers' hobby specs, obviously, for the added nuance of enrages in TBC raids means high DPS is nearly as important as capable tanks/healers. Nearly. It's unfair to say that "if you can't keep your tank alive you are SOL" --your heals and tanking could be fine, but when your DPS isn't doing enough to get to get the boss down once he hits 30%, give them more lewts--and if that doesn't work kick their asses to the curb (there's a discussion topic in its own right).
Pook Oct 29th 2007 3:41PM
I shall ask...nay demand that Gnomes be given first chance at the Tiny Voodoo Mask. :P
Kellhus Oct 29th 2007 3:43PM
Well, in my case, being a druid, taking offspeck gear only when no one need it and item is going to be a shard. Our guild is working on Mag, so we use dkp only for gruul, mag and ssc. I think what the article outlined is the essentials and its the officers who have to have common sense to keep the guild going because loot, like the author points out, is the most common center of guild drama. When ever dkp is not involved (kara or heroic) common sense and fairness should prevail or the people will leave.
Vestras Oct 30th 2007 9:21AM
My guild has had some experience with this. There was one night in Kara when I won 5 drops, 2 for upgrades, and 3 since no one else had rolled for them. I felt kinda bad for that, but that was how things went. Better to take for off gear than shard a purp. As a druid, I have a lot of possible items I CAN roll on, but very few that I actually do. We have 2 of each flavor of druid in guild so when specific pieces come up it goes to that spec first, then whomever has the closer off spec of the second. Personally, I never roll for cloth casting/healing gear unless it is a massive upgrade. similarly, I've seen a lot of our pali's debating rolling on mail since we have onl 2 shamans in guild.
My philosiphy is that gear should remain prioritized by upgradability. Just cause you happen to be the main tank does not mean you should get gear over the off tank who may have to take your place at a moments notice. When gear comes up that is either a small upgrade or off-gear, It gets done by whatever loot system you use. I have one friend, a shaman, who never considerd that he could be an offhealer, and now has to play catch up to help his guild with spamming chain heals.
Dafriz Oct 30th 2007 12:01PM
I lead 2 karazhan raids for the past couple months (1 on my tauren druid and 1 on my bloodelf paladin)
i dont have much problem with loot cuz everyone in my raid that consistently shows up gets priority in raiding (even if they are only going for one item now)
there was a time when i did run into some loot problems is when a prot paladin complained cuz i let the mt (prot warrior) take a pair of tanking boots off of chess even though he won a roll.. i stopped it and said he should pass because he got the last 4 protection pieces and his tier helm (i passed on my paladin for him so he could have the upgrade)and he got a lil huffy and his wife who was the holy priest said that wasnt fair cuz the other holy priest got 2 pieces that week (she got 3 the week b4 and lights justice that night.. i passed to her also) basically the only person who had gotten screwed ova for loot was my holy paladin and my main tank (he was going on 3 weeks without an upgrade) yet the ppl who were complaining were still getting loot and said they would leave the raid... i just told them ok then just leave ill replace u the same day u try to screw me ova by not coming and going off to another raid so u wont have to have any guilt.
pretty much my loot rules were changed to.. 1 epic per run/ (certain pieces i decide who gets priority.. based off of attendance for mindblade, malachezzen, and the healing weapons)
also due to other problems i had when kara first started coming out i had to make a separate loot table for tier bcuz they would get it then possibly leave raid to a friends.. so tier is also based off of attendance/ all the ppl that join my raids so far have understood and i have a basic DBAD policy (Don't be a dick) if theres tier thats going to drop but u dont think ud use it pass it off to someone else who would. (granted its not forced really cuz i havnt had problems with it)
Andrew Oct 30th 2007 3:49PM
@20
Not sure which class priority you were saying was bad. If it was the balance druid, I can agree with you, I probably should have let him roll on the loot since we have decided to allow a raiding spot for a class that doesn't really have the itemization support yet.
However, if it's on the drops themselves, I will disagree. That would be like saying the bow dropped off of Prince and anyone who can use a bow can /roll on it. We enhance our system by allowing a class-specific purple roll and a cross-class roll. So far, we don't run into problems and we keep the loot as fair as possible. Our raid members are pretty intelligent when it comes to loot, so I haven't seen many issues.
blackangely2k Nov 3rd 2007 1:09PM
My guild raids not only Kara (and soon, ZA) without a DKP system, but we also do the same in Gruul's and SSC.
The key to this is recruitment. If you are going to let people roll on gear you have to be very careful who you bring on board. They need to understand that your eye is on them and if they show tendencies toward lootwhoring you will act accordingly.
In months of raiding under this system we have had only a very small handful of complaints, and those were usually from people that ended up leaving anyway because the casual guild approach to loot didn't favor them. Of course, you can get drama from DKP systems too...as the hardcore raider hoard points and destroy any chance more casual players have of getting decent gear.
So my point of view is this: you only need DKP systems in any size raid if you are dealing with greedy children. If you have a team of mature adults, they will work toward the betterment of the guild and not have any issues. Recruitment is key.