Women in raids
Epic Dolls recently gave a woman's perspective to the Ten Ton Hammer article on women in raiding. Essentially the original article brought up some extremely valid points about females in the raiding sphere, and Leala took the time to respond to some of the statements made in the article, explaining them from a female point of view. What I love about this is the fact that what we have here is an intelligent dialog. In no way is the Epic Dolls response claiming that Ten Ton "doesn't understand us" and that they write "biased work because they hate women," both of which are common misconceptions on either side of the gaming gender divide. Leala first begins by explaining that the article on Ten Ton was well written and interesting, and then proceeds to respond to some issues brought up in the article.
The first notion she conquers is the idea that simply adding a woman into the raid brings drama, when in actuality it is the male response to the woman that causes friction. We've heard of cases of groups going out of their way to avoid these reactions, but in the end it is the guild/raid leader's job to create a welcoming environment for all players, male and female. I would have to agree with Leala here. I don't see how a girl can be blamed for the behavior of the guys around her. Which person is acting childishly? Deal with that person. Removing one stimulus will quiet them down for a while, until something else gets them riled and they go off. If, on the other hand, a female member of the raid is causing trouble, deal with her. It only makes sense to punish the offenders, no matter their gender.
A second statement she notes is that point in the article where the author says women are vicious creatures. Profiling of any type is offensive, and you could just as easily put another protected class in that statement and see exactly how wrong it is. It is just as bad to say that all men are pigs, which is equally wrong, if slightly more metaphorical. The only generalization you can make with such a sweeping broad stroke is that all men have Y chromosomes, and all women have X chromosomes, but even then you are pushing it. No entire group of people are vicious. There may be violent and hateful people within a group, but to label the entire group based on one member, or even a few members, is wrong. As Leala puts it, "People can be vicious creatures. It has nothing to do with male or female, it's just personality, priorities, and morals."
The last statement Leala discusses about the three types of women gamers I will not comment on, on the grounds that anything I say will come off as sexist toward men, and honestly, what's the point of fighting fire with fire here? I hate generalization. For me it only works in philosophical discussions. Okay maybe I will make one little comment. In all my time in the game (and I have been playing since 2005) I have never encountered the MSM (Man-Seeking-Missile) type of female gamer Ciderhelm speaks of. But to say that that there are no women who play the game in order to find a guy is again a generalization, so therefore inaccurate.
Any discussion of this type will be heated, and until you can toss what we think we know about the opposite gender out the window and go on what we have experienced personally, any conclusions will be skewed.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, WoW Social Conventions, Raiding






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Hellbena Oct 29th 2007 9:52PM
There are a lot of women in the guild that I raid with, and I must say, they're all very mature players. One likes to find out who the second highest bidder is on an item and see if it's a major upgrade, pass to that person instead.
The only "man-seeking-missile" I know of on my server (Greymane) is Inyusgal. She has quite a rep for having overly "friendly" conversations with the male members of guilds she's been in.
Calaana Oct 29th 2007 10:30PM
I've had just as many bad runs with the ladies as good, and while some of his points are very true.. their the exception. Most of the "MSM" are normally dudes anyway.
Yes, drama can be made when they walk into a raid that's male and find out that it's very male indeed.. but that's their problem; Deal with it or leave. Most people are happy enough to tone it down when asked, but demanding to be "treated like the princess I am!" is so not the way to handle it, as one of them put it .. she doesn't raid or even play much anymore. Funny that.
From a males point of view.. I just plain out prefer the company of our more graceful halves. Nothing sexual about it, I just find them to be more soothing, less tense and all around more "fun". Sure I've put my foot in my mouth more times than I can count.. but learning is part of it, really.
rick gregory Oct 29th 2007 10:33PM
I stopped reading the article when he said "I would hope that -- in either case -- you catch the nuance of my arguments" and then proceeded to make sweeping statements such as all men want to have kids. This was written by someone who can't argue effectively and who's confused about what they want to say - you simply don't write an article that puts for stereotypes and then tack on an intro that asks us to see the nuance. You want me to see nuance? Add some.
cwolf267 Oct 29th 2007 10:43PM
I absolutely ADORE women in raids... who else is going to bake team cookies? :-P
Whitburn Oct 29th 2007 10:52PM
Variety is the spice of life and with that note I firmly support girl raiders.
I think that there is clearly an issue with women in raids for some males. Notably from the hardcore aspect of raiding guilds. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Nihilum (one of the best raiding guilds) adverse to women joining their guild? That is not to say that all hardcore raiders are of the same disposition; as with any demographic there is always difference in views and I do not by any standards seek to demonize all raiders as women-haters. I myself happen to be in a very pleasant guild where there are female members who raid.
I think the hangups to female raiders from males stem from a variety of things I will name two:
a. I think that there is definately a link between being a hardcore raider and having a less active social life exo-WoW. This inexperience of women in the real world may breed contempt in the virtual world.
b. The fact that there are little to no consequences to one's actions further reinforces point 'a'. The principal being that if one can 'get away with' something then surely more people are likely to do it. An ancient example of this would be swearing - many curse obsessively in WoW, but I would doubt they do so in reality. Thus, contempt against women can be more actively commenced in WoW than in reality.
- Whitburn
Whitburn Oct 29th 2007 10:54PM
Variety is the spice of life and with that note I firmly support girl raiders.
I think that there is clearly an issue with women in raids for some males. Notably from the hardcore aspect of raiding guilds. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Nihilum (one of the best raiding guilds) adverse to women joining their guild? That is not to say that all hardcore raiders are of the same disposition; as with any demographic there is always difference in views and I do not by any standards seek to demonize all raiders as women-haters. I myself happen to be in a very pleasant guild where there are female members who raid.
I think the hangups to female raiders from males stem from a variety of things I will name two:
a. I think that there is definately a link between being a hardcore raider and having a less active social life exo-WoW. This inexperience of women in the real world may breed contempt in the virtual world.
b. The fact that there are little to no consequences to one's actions further reinforces point 'a'. The principal being that if one can 'get away with' something then surely more people are likely to do it. An ancient example of this would be swearing - many curse obsessively in WoW, but I would doubt they do so in reality. Thus, contempt against women can be more actively commenced in WoW than in reality.
- Whitburn
robodex Oct 29th 2007 10:54PM
I don't know why people are always like "OMG GURLZ PLAYIN WOW!" Every single guild I've ever been in has just treated the women the same as the men. No excessive flirting, no giving loot preference... They're just more players in the guild.
Whitburn Oct 29th 2007 10:55PM
I would like to add that I am an impatient ass. Please delete the double post and this one too. Thankyou
bnorman Oct 29th 2007 10:58PM
My Guild is just starting to raid Kara. 4 of our 10 people are girls, and I don't find that odd at all! :)
Sylythn Oct 29th 2007 11:06PM
On my raids at least, a raider is a raider - I don't care who's behind the screen. Do I get along better with the female players - sure - but I don't bring that into the raiding environment. Everyone gets treated equally.
avery Oct 29th 2007 11:32PM
As a girl gamer - I can say that for the most part the quality of gamers are even on both male and female side. Hell, one of our Kara raid leaders is female and I think she does an excellent job (at least, she's one hell of a lot less annoying than some of our other raid leaders).
As far as "MSM" people I've noticed in game, well honestly only two females and a lot of teenage boys (not saying all your teenage boys are like this! I've met some that are actually really awesome). So honestly, I think its both sides. And luckily, you can usually spot these people obviously so they are easy to avoid. I know just from the start if a group asks "hey, are you REALLY a girl, or are you a guy with a chick toon" that someone is looking to flirt. (so my usual answer is that I'm a guy playing a chick toon, and if voice chat gets involved I claim to be a 10 yr old boy just to avoid the "MSM" type).
I dunno, I think its injust to blame drama on girls singularly. More-so, I think its just the overly flirty types on BOTH sides that causes drama. IMO - WoW is a game we have fun with, not a dating service.
bennet Oct 30th 2007 2:05AM
I am so very, very glad that I'm in a guild where this never comes up. We have men, we have women, and we all just play the game.
kunukia Oct 30th 2007 12:03AM
My guild is about 50% female/male. We are not hard core, but yes we raid. No drama whatsoever.
We are however very mature, people with families, or at least college-age folks.
AndyF Oct 30th 2007 12:22AM
"We've heard of cases of groups going out of their way to avoid these reactions"
WHY ARE YOU STILL LINKING TO THIS?
It was a goddamn joke.
AndyF Oct 30th 2007 12:25AM
But seriously, women in raids is only a problem if the guild is immature. And if so, find yourself a better guild.
We have on average 3 women in our raid group a week, and there are no male/female issues at all. They can all play their class fine (elesham, boomkin, hunter), they are vocal on vent if problems arise, it's all good.
The only times you have male/female friction is with immature guys in the party/raid. And if that's happening, don't put up with it, go somewhere else.
Andelorn Oct 30th 2007 12:37AM
I am actually part of an (almost) full-girl guild, in which I am part advisor to my friend (the founder/GM and the reason I'm in the guild) and part enforcer of teh dramaz as appointed by her. Sure we have had one or two girls who were a bit prissy ('You're not all going out of your way to run me through Strat/deliver me mats I need/assist me with this quest instantly! I'm leaving the guild!' as an example), but overall they've all been very nice and sweet and everything's worked together fine.
They all play their classes very well, though there's definitely a lean towards magic classes and we've done many a Kara run with the only melee being the tanks, but overall I'm proud to be a part of them.
Thallya Oct 30th 2007 12:57AM
Honestly i am a female player in an endgame guild and we have actually about 5-6 maybe even more women in each of our raids. none of us cause any friction were all adults about it. everyone has their fair chance at making suggestions and everyone is treated respectfully. i know this is a problem in some places but i have yet to truly encounter it anywhere on my server. i did have one person try to hit on me but he was swiftly set straight by my friends who were also in the group.
Girl Meets WoW Oct 30th 2007 1:20AM
Really, the first page of comments speaks to what a non-issue this really is in any mature guild. As for "man-seeking missiles"... well, when you've got a sizable female contingent in the officer corp like my guild does, they tend to get weeded out as fast as any loot ninja.
Corvikkan Oct 30th 2007 1:51AM
I've been surprised at how many women I've encountered in raiding guilds during my time playing WoW. This is a game that has its roots in a culture dominated by romantically-frustrated ubergeeks, and for a long time the operating principle for relationships, if you didn't want to get burned, was that "there are no girls on the Internet." A lot of these aforementioned romantically-challenged males are suddenly encountering not just girls, but girls who share common geeky interests, and the wheels of fantasy start churning. Before too long, they've convinced themselves that it's a match made in heaven, and it's there for the taking, and so of course any signals from the woman he's set on will get misconstrued and over-emphasized. Especially for testosterone-drenched teenage guys, it's a recipe for disaster.
Now I'm not saying "no gurlz allowed!1" Heck, my current GM is a woman, and before that I followed somebody who could best be called a "guild mom" through the breakup of one raiding guild and a merger into another. I am just of the opinion that a lot of guys, before they hit 20 or so, just aren't mature enough and/or far enough past puberty, to think rationally about their relationships with female guildies. I know I sure as heck wouldn't have been. So there needs to be a lot of caution on all sides, guys, girls, and guild leadership, on how people interact with guildmates of the opposite sex (how a statement could be misread, not reading too heavily into things), and who joins the guild (can a prospective member handle raiding with women, or could the existing members handle the same if it's a woman wanting to join? If not, they shouldn't be recruited).
Ebola Oct 30th 2007 2:01AM
Who cares if its male or female raiding, cause guess what you can have homo happy charlie over there raiding on a female toon posing as a female while wearing his moms panties for shits and giggles. No one cares anymore, wipe or no wipe, attitude or no attitude, ppl care more about gear than who the hell they play with. If you know your job, and you do your job shit you can be a gnomish eskimo bear hugging hippy for all i give from the planet zeon. Hell a monkey can play a toon and raid with me if they do their job is that so hard to ask. Why make it a sex topic!