Forum Post of the Day: /signed
It started the day before Halloween, a thread on the Mage forums about certain issues with the changes to Patch 2.3. Today, 51 pages later, mages are still posting about their concerns, and the thread has gotten notice. I don't know where to start explaining this thing. It's just too huge, too massive, and too full of brilliant suggestions. The more I read the more I learn, and the more I gain a deeper respect for my mage brethren.The original poster, a mage named Adultralisk writing under a friend's account (for reasons I'm unclear on,) starts by explaining that mages are unhappy with certain changes coming in Patch 2.3. Largely, they coalesce down to two themes, Arcane viability, and PvP issues. Nethaera took the time to post on this thread, asking mages to include feedback rather than simply typing '/signed,' and while I see her point -- adding suggestions to the discussion is always better than simply agreeing -- I feel that if you don't have any suggestions, a show of moral support is equally as viable.
The Arcane tree as it now stands is heavily item-centric. Arcane mages do an insane amount of PvE damage at the top end, but that is due in large part to the use of the Mystical Skyfire Diamond, the Lightning Capacitor, and the two-piece set bonus on the Tier 5 set. When Patch 2.3 rolls out the MSD and the Lightning Capacitor (I have yet to see documentation on this, although they say it's in there somewhere) will both receive significant nerfs, which greatly affect Arcane mages. As Adultralisk mentions, being reliant on carrying around 2/5 of Tier 5 will only work for so long. As guilds progress, mages will be moving on to Tier 6, and when WotLK arrives, T7 and T8. Why, therefore should Arcane mages be expected to carry out-of-date items simply to receive 20% additional damage to their Arcane Blast?
One very intuitive suggestion to this problem came from a commenter named Rounced. He suggested that Arcane Blast be changed, and the T5 set bonus removed. If the debuff duration of Arcane Blast is increased, from 8 seconds to 11 seconds, while its damage and mana cost reduced to 8%, this still gives Arcane mages time to cast Arcane Missiles in between blasts, while keeping the spell from being overpowered. Other posters suggested adding a spell haste talent to the Arcane tree, thus removing the reliance on the MSD's proc.
On the PvP side of things, Mages are concerned about the increase to Hypothermia. They say that with that increase it is now pretty much impossible for a mage to Ice Block twice in an arena battle. When Hypothermia was added to the game initially, it was seen as a pretty big challenge, but one that mages adapted to. A small part of me wonders if they will be able to adapt to the 45 second wait time now, but I realize that 15 seconds is an eternity in PvP.
The other point made was that there is only one PvP spec for mages currently, and yet three trees that would love to use their abilities in the arena. We had heard from the devs that they do not intend every spec to have viability in every aspect of the game, I hear you. But mages still would like to have some survivability added to the other specs as well. Someone in the thread suggested a limited Ice Block being added as an ability rather than a talent.
My point is, there are a LOT of great suggestions in this thread, and any mage interested in the future of the class after the patch should spend some time to read it. Perhaps you have a suggestion as to how this issues might be improved, and can add your voice to the discussion. There isn't going to be a change anytime soon, as far as I can tell, that's just not how the devs work. Adultralisk himself states that he isn't looking for an instant fix, but an eventual one, even if you have to wait until the next expansion, would be more than welcome. But perhaps enough intelligent discussion on the topic will raise the issues in the devs minds for future changes to the class.






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Balasan Nov 3rd 2007 6:57PM
I dunno about the rest of you, but players playing mages are the whiniest players out of all the classes. I just don't understand them. They have a million of things to be thankful for compared to others.
On the blizz forums I've noticed mages are one of the more common posters to derail a thread about another class pointing to a post about their own problems (I forgot the right term for that).
2.3 gives them a damn lot of buffs, removed coefficients, ritual of refreshment, improved evoc, improved arcane meditation, etc, etc. But the whinefest keep on coming! I have NOT SEEN A SINGLE POST SAYING THANK YOU.
Ret paladins got a nice buff, making them raid viable, and there's a noticable post of appreciation around.
Shamans, even though elemental got a nerf, and they had a whine post about it, but a lot are very thankful the buff they got by water shield interspersed in between the whines.
I feel like smashing the head of the mages who whine inneccesantly on the forums into a glass wall and throw them off a cliff and a lot of other things furious people do. I have a lot of respect for the CMs and their patience in handling the whinemage.
I'm not saying you can't complain, but the excess whinefest is maddening.
Ashley Nov 3rd 2007 7:06PM
Balasan all 2.3 has done for me, a raiding mage, is un-nerfed my coefficients, made evocate return less mana, improved arcane meditation while making arcane specs inferior the only spec that would get it.
Sorry, if I'm not all that impressed.
Btw, don't you find your post just a bit ironic?
monty Nov 3rd 2007 7:08PM
@1. Please don't reproduce.
Balasan Nov 3rd 2007 7:12PM
Understandably I'm whining. That's for pointing that out.
I'm just lashing out weeks of accumulated frustration I've been gaining everytime I read the ptr forums, where mage whines are all over the place and links to mage problems in posts with a blue in it.
I dunno, a 51 page response for a tree that just only got nerfed in 2.3 that went rain unviable, while paladins and shamans have a raid unviable (gramatically incorrect, I know) tree for months and I didn't notice such a huge one post outcry.
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 7:14PM
@1. You have no idea what are you talking about. Did you even read the post? Do you have any idea about a mage, have you ever played one at 70? From what I see i don't think so.
Since TBC came out we were nerfed like hell: threat reduction, spell hit, damage tax, ignite, hypotermia, and a lot of other indirect nerfs.
In this patch: detect magic removed, evocation change ( buff for pvp, but hurtful pve nerf), hypotermia again, MSD, TLC, tax removal is NOT a buff, is a fix.
We're supposed to be "glass cannons" but now we're only glass, and half cannons. We have *only* one viable PvP spec, and even that one is getting nerfed. We are supposed to be #1 Ranged Damage dealers ( #2 overall, after rogues) but warlocks scale better than us, and even hunters or shadowpriests tend to outdps a mage depending on the encounter.
We have a spec that doesn't compete in PvE ( frost), a "standard" 10/48/3 spec that matches the description i wrote up here ( hopefully it will get better in 2.3 due to the tax removal, and the fix of lag issues, removing the /stopcasting need.), and a kinda gimped arcane spec, that is actually fun and challenging in meters to play, but it relies a lot on gear&gimmicks, and even on a shadowpriest.
Research&think before you speak.
Hybrys Nov 3rd 2007 7:18PM
So, 60% mana is going to be LESS for you? Well, the mages I know, even with 100 spirit combinations for weapons and OH for Evocates, are going to gain more mana.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0E00cZxtMzfzsoekx0h
^---This is a VERY viable Deep Fire spec, including Arcane Meditation. And don't you dare be telling me that you need Dragon's Breath to raid. Because you don't. At all. Ever.
Hybrys Nov 3rd 2007 7:20PM
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0E00cZxxMzfMsoekx0h
Small change, because I'm an idiot. -_-
holymage Nov 3rd 2007 7:30PM
I for one think it is disgusting that they told us to stop typing /signed and give them some constructive critizism. Now they want us to do their job for them? They are the developers, they should play the game for themselves and not rely on the customers to tell them when something is out of hand (Mana gems restoring crap mana, blink failing 50% of the time, spellsteal and blink costing ridiculous amounts of mana, etc...). I could guarantee you that if just one developer played a mage in high teir arenas and raids something on my list would e changed.
Freezer Nov 3rd 2007 7:24PM
I'll admit, the mage forums are often filled with some of the biggest whiners WoW has. That doesnt discount the fact that there are some serious issues with the mage class that many mages feel get overlooked by the devs. For every nice change we get, like the removal of the damage coefficiant, we get a nerf completely out of left field like the hypothermia increase.
I for one hope that forum posts like this at least get developers thinking about the issues that many players have with the mage class.
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 7:28PM
Yes, 60% is less mana, with almost no spirit at all, just raid buffed, and an add-on swapping staff&wand from me I get ~70-80% of my mana back....
And your build....just sucks...You don't need Dragon's Breath, but you need Molten Fury, Playing with Fire, Flame Throwing, Master of Elements maxed. The Arcane Meditation buff can't make-up for these key talents. Try more next time.
Hybrys Nov 3rd 2007 7:30PM
Oh, and the damage tax removal is NOT a fix. A damage tax was placed because you were doing too much damage. That was a nerf. It's being taken away that is a buff.
And we have an Ice Mage raid. He's very good at the class, and remains competetive on the charts.
If you've also ever looked at the arcane tree, it really doesn't try to buff arcane spells specificly. There are three or four talents doing so. And I personally think that Deep Arcane/Elemental is a competetive build...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0E00czxIziZxxMzfZ0h1
or
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0E00czxIziZZVA0coc0o
Spell Power is the major reason why such a build could be viable. Just imagine 300% crits on ALL frost spells. (150 base, plus 100 from Ice Shards, plus 50 from Spell Power = 300.)
Balasan Nov 3rd 2007 7:34PM
Right, I'm being misunderstood. I'm just irritated at the amount of whining mages are doing. I acknowledge mages have problems, but then again, a lot of other classes do too.
I don't play a mage. And I never said I understand the problems you guys have. I'm reiterating that I'm mad at the amount of complaining you guys are doing. Other classes have it bad (and some even worse) than you do, but there's just too much whining I see all over from mages more than other classes.
Nexxius, I'd also like to know where you got the info that mages are supposed to be the #1 ranged damage dealers.
Meira Nov 3rd 2007 7:39PM
@12
You lost a big opportunity to be quiet
At the thread, i agree with the OP's sugestions, the mage class instead of being glass cannons are broken cannons. We're constantly being out-damaged by Spriets and Warlocks, that have higher survavibility and better mana regenerating abillities. Oh and Evocation is a "double-edged sword" type of buff: buffs pvp but nerfs big time PvE, i have crap spirit in my mage but with swapping i get more than 7k mana, and my mana pool is a little bigger than 10k, i don't want to evocate just 6k when i evocated 7k.
Oh and remove already those 15 secs added to hypothermia.
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 7:47PM
How about Starlight Wrath, Divine fury, Improved Corruption, Bane, Lightning Mastery to reduce your spell damage coefficient when you put points in? How would you feel to spend talent points to nerf yourself? It's an UN-NERF. We were NOT doing too much damage. We will not outdamage warlocks even after 2.3, and they have more survivability and utility than us. You're clueless.
You don't even know what are you talking about. Your specs are crap. 300% crits? Are you mad? 100% the spell, 50% more on crit. Ice shards = 100% more crit dmg, 100% of 50% = 200% crits. Spell Power = 50% more crit dmg, 50% of 50% = 25%. 200% + 25% = 225% Crit for frost.This is the way it works. Please, go to bed.
And if your "Ice" Mage is so competitive, then it means your guild kinda sucks.
holymage Nov 3rd 2007 7:44PM
OMG, I posted something similar to my above response directed to the blizzard poster who said not to type /signed. I log on to the wow forums right after I came and posted here only to find my account has been temporarily banned. This is seriously a friggin outrage and I am disgusted at blizzard's incompentance and the length they go through to cover it up. I did say for them to get their head out of their ass but I truely think they are scared of logic.
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 7:48PM
@ Balasan, we whine a lot, but because we have reasons to do it. Since TBC came out, a mage player wonders what is the point of this class. Free water?
That information, not really an information, is how the mage class was designed.
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/classes/mage/index.html
Rogues deserve to be the #1 DPSer in PvE, since they bring nothing on the table, but we, compared to locks/hunters/shpriests, deserve far more.
Hybrys Nov 3rd 2007 7:50PM
Did you actually just call FLAME THROWING a key talent? Wow. Get out. Now. That's like calling Hawk Eye a needed hunter talent.
Hybrys Nov 3rd 2007 7:53PM
I have a WWS of the mage pushing 900 DPS, with most top DPSers hovering around 1k. We're not terrible. Maybe it's just you?
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 7:59PM
@18./facepalm.
Your excellent theorycrafting talents and knowledge proven us how smart you are. I don't have time to explain how our talents works to every scrub like you. Sorry. Elephantards like you don't deserve any explications.
For Balasan, I'm sorry if my first post offended you, I'm just going mad when I see people that don't elaborate more on their thoughts, to say it nice.
Nexxius Nov 3rd 2007 8:00PM
@19. ....../facepalm again.
Ok, let's take it nice and slowly, I see that you're still in Kara and these are big numbers for you. 900...lol