Dude Wheres My Shaman
First there was dot shock. Then there was a new PTR build, and for a time, all was peaceful. Now, witness the birth of a new era of Shaman protest: re-rolling. Yes, the Shaman forums are abuzz with posters pledging to re-roll any class but Shaman, on Auchindoun, Horde side. And yes, they have named their guild none other than <Dude Wheres My Shaman>. I'll forgive them the lack of an apostrophe, if only because I really like the movie.To be honest, I don't have enough Shaman experience to know much about the issues here. But I do know a neat idea when I see it, so I logged on to Auchindoun with a newly-minted, creatively-named character, and conducted a very fun group interview with all the ex-shamans there to find out what they were so riled up about. Chat log after the cut (edited for length and grammar -- there was a lot of them, and they were more than happy to talk).
Eliahhecht: OK guys. So, why are you here?
Donakora: I'm here because I want to make a statement to Blizzard.
Fynal: our way to tell blizz they f-d up
Xur: the constant nerfs are just too much and in fact I am waiting on warhammer
Donakora: That silence revert issue is a step in the right direction- But it's far from solving all of our problems.
Donakora: I mean, look at enhancement for god's sake.
Solid: yes all trees need to be raid viable, with the implementation of 2.3. elemental will be obsolete for raiding
Xur: I pay money every week to see the guy I played with for 2 years be set back time and again
Eliahhecht: OK, so what would make you guys happy with the class again?
Eliahhecht: or is it too late at this point?
Donakora: Balance. Just make us bring something to the table that actually sets us apart.
Fynal: totems....gah
Siar: For PvP it's an issue of control
Humnpaladin: Enh to not rely on luck, Ele changes to be reverted, totem system overhaul.
Xur: STOP nerfing DPS, and do not lie about simple math that proves the new Lightning Overload mechanics are a buff
Siar: Totems are immobile, costly, and too many of the best ones are in the same totem tree
Makaveli: and enhancement shamans need a move other then the pvp trinket to get rid of snares/CC, or a CC
Bffeynoix: shamans are currently the only class with out a snare/stun/some way of getting distance in pvp
Siar: It's extremely hard to get groups as any other spec than resto
Donakora: To put it simply, group PvP in this game is about CC and Anti-CC right now. That's simply the way it is. All of the best classes in arena have CCs.
Eliahhecht: So as far as PvE goes, your perception is that all three trees are beaten by other classes?
Clingy: yes, i'll drink to that
Siar: I'd say Resto is the one on par with others
Eliahhecht: Are Shamans in a worse place now than, say, 2.1, or pre-BC?
Makaveli: they could actually contend with the best before BC
Donakora: Before BC, our chain heal mechanics brought something absolutely amazing raid viability
Eliahhecht: Alright, let's see...Mike informs me that Warriors tried something similar, with this whole rerolling thing, and got in trouble for that. Are you worried?
Octo: no
Donakora: [The warriors] crashed the server. We're doing nothing against the ToS.
Humnpaladin: i'll eat a month long ban to see shammies get buffed
Xur: that is part of the problem here ... we PAY [Blizzard] ... and we get crapped on time and again ... I understand you have to cater to the majority but damn...
Eliahhecht: Oh, here's one. Do you think Blizz did anything wrong with their forum moderation during the whole dot-shock thing? I've heard conflicting stories.
Siar: I think a few threads got caught in the crossfire, but...
Abnormality: i got banned for actually proposing a new DoT
Siar: I think they just need to read a little more carefully and moderate specific posts
Makaveli: and talk to the shaman community more and stop lying to us
So there you have it. The reason the re-rollers are re-rolling. What do you think? Do they have a point? Will you be joining them? As of when I logged off, they had over 250 members, and more were joining every few minutes.
[thanks, Smacks]
Edit: The good folks at the Shaman forums would like me to post their summary of the issues as an alternative viewpoint. Elbera puts it as follows:
Elemental DPS is being nerfed despite being told 2.3 would be a buff, it is only a buff to undergeared players, which seriously will hurt Elementals raiding viability. All the 41 point talents are currently dispellable, which severely limits their usefulness.
Enhancement is currently unable to close gaps in pvp against classes that can kite, short of using a trinket cooldown. Warriors, Rogues, and Feral druids (melee) all have ways of closing the distance to a class. ALL shaman specs are currently able to be locked down by stuns and any form of CC for the entire duration of a fight, and all their spells are in one tree with the exception of 2 shocks.
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
brett Nov 7th 2007 10:37PM
Try playing a paladin and then come talk to me about how nerfed your class is.
Imogynn Nov 7th 2007 10:59PM
Why is "you guys are QQing" considered a rebuttal?
pj.herman Nov 7th 2007 11:40PM
The shear ignorance towards the Shaman class from non-shaman in these replies is staggering. When you make comments like "QQ more" or anything of the sort, you only prove your intolerance towards a class's genuine concerns, caring about nothing more than your own.
I dumped my Shaman looong ago and have leveled 2 more characters to 70 since and working on another now. While I do miss the theory behind the Shaman, in practicality I'm glad I parked him.
Bobby Hansen Nov 8th 2007 12:51AM
My main is a Shaman, Draenei. I wanted badly to have a Shaman when I first started playing WoW Some months before BC came out, but my Alliance-based coworkers convinced me to roll a Hunter Instead. Fun, but post-BC when I rerolled to a PVE server, I did my SHaman (after trying a priest and a warrior), and I loved it for the first 45 levels.
I liked Enhancement, as I loved the idea of scrappy fighter who had the power of the elements with her. I respecced from a hybrid ELE/RES spec at 50 and it got me through the pre-BC content. Around then is when I saw the weaknesses. At 60 it got fun again with BC Content, but now that I'm 70 I can see clearly the issues.
Two things kill an Enhancement Shaman's chances in PVP - A lack of a CC method, and no way to avoid Stun lock/fear.
In other words, we can be CCed to hell, but have no hope to give CC back. This generally means that Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Rogues, Warriors (because of High Armor), and some Pallies are pretty much write offs. We don't have a fair chance. Hunters? Well now in 2.3 we can't close distance before Distracting Shot (another CC used against us we can't measure against) because they don't have a deadzone any more!
Enhancement Shaman are a fun class. My guild recruited me because they knew I would hang in there as a dedicated DPS who can bring Windfury Totem and heal if needed. They also knew that Enh has big issues. They decided to do it regardless - and it's sad they couldn't decide based on "Shaman" alone. Some Hybrid class.
I'll never stop loving my Shaman, but I'll enjoy when it's buffed equally to everyone else.
Trabek Nov 8th 2007 1:03AM
For those posters that said Druids are in a better position then Shaman are, consider this:
1. Druids are in the same situation as far as "only being good for healing". Even with the feral improvements, people only want us to heal. We are no different than shaman in that respect.
2. True, shaman dont have a snare ability, but they do have a counter-spell. Druids have a snare, but not a counter-spell. Neither class is exactly happy with this, but druids are not "better off".
3. Raid utility, comparing similar specs:
Elemental shaman group buffs are better than Moonkin. Spell damage, 3% spell crit, and for alliance spell hit for shaman vs 5% spell crit with moonkin. DPS is roughly even, maybe more for moonkin, but group dps with shaman is more. Advantage Ele shaman.
Enhancement again has better group buffs than cat form, and group dps gives an advantage to the shaman again.
Resto is a draw in my opinion.
4. You may not be happy with the current state of shamans and think that Blizzard forgot you in TBC, but at least you get gear. Name more than 2 items for moonkin from raid content (before 2.3 ;/ ).
I guess my point is, dont think you are the only class who isnt feeling the love. Druids in general have felt this way for at least as long as you have.
Thilia-Doom Nov 8th 2007 1:36AM
@9
You stated, in the log, that you'd take a month ban just to see shamans get buffed. then you state that you deleted your shaman. You are obviously lying. Good job on your "protest"
Zegim Nov 8th 2007 2:28AM
"Xur: the constant nerfs are just too much and in fact I am waiting on warhammer"
While I think Shamans have a good reason to voice their opinion in the best way you see fit, comments like this severely hurt the way people see your arguments. Then, it's hard to not see it as a simple "QQ, switch to Warhammer since Blizz sucks" kind of post.
Memzer Nov 8th 2007 2:03AM
For all of you out there that are saying shamans are fine think about what happens when you begin to form a 5 man group. If your talent build is any one of the following you can expect to be last on the list of people to be invited to an instance:
Feral Melee DPS Druid
Boomkin Druid
Retribution Paladin
Discipline Priest
Elemental Shaman
Enhancement Shaman
Demonology Warlock
Fury Warrior
Arms Warrior
Why is this? Mostly it is because of the way blizzard designed instances in the burning crusade; while you're learning new content or if you're attempting the content in heroic mode it is not at all friendly to groups that don't bring a lot of crowd control. Now couple the fact that none of the class talent builds listed above bring a remotely reliable form of crowd control to the table with the fact that they aren't bringing bringing enough utility to justify them being there and you've got a problem. Melee Feral Druids, Boomkin, Fury Warriors and Enhancement/Elemental shamans all do pretty good damage but damage no where near that of a affliction or destruction warlock/shadow priest/mage. Arms and Demo locks are admittedly more suited to PvP but like blizzard says they want people to be playing a healthy mix of both PvP and PvE. And Discipline priests, well, yeah...
Things don't get much better for you when it comes to 10 man content, and for some of the combinations listed there it's nigh impossible for you to raid with those builds. A lot of mages are complaining right now about the damage difference between themselves and rogues/warlocks/shadow priests and how even a few percent will mean the difference between getting a spot in a guild and jumping around Ironforge. For the classes listed above (excluding the fury warrior which can output a lot of damage in a raid with a smart leader) most of the classes listed above can't even come close to the damage of mages/rogues/warlocks/shadow priests - so how exactly are they meant to compete?
So you'll probably say well you should talent for what your class is good at right? Shamans have awesome healing talents, just be a healer. Think about how you would feel if you levelled your class (let us say you're a rogue) and you melee your way through 69 levels and then suddenly you find out you don't do comparable DPS to other class and you don't bring enough other utility for people to want you there; in short, nobody wants you... Well now you're getting a feel for what people playing these builds are feeling.
As it stands now it's unlikely that most of the problems these players are having are going to be fixed before WotLK (if they're even fixed there) but in my opinion there are two things blizzard needs to do.
First off either damage trees need to be given some form of reliable crowd control or instances need to be made less crowd control intensive. For example [drawing from talents already in the game] I can imagine shamans getting a totem that mind controls their opponents (mobs in the game already do this) or fury warriors getting a talent that reliably immobilises their opponents (warriors already have talents to do this occasionally, it's not that much of a stretch). Druids already have cyclone, give them a talent to increase it's duration deep within their trees.
In addition blizzard could save themselves a lot of trouble (and make a lot of people happy) by making the re-spec process easier. One really good suggestion I heard a while back [forgive me for not being able to find the original poster] was to allow players to make two talent builds. One for PvP and one for PvE or maybe one for PvP/PvE and one for grinding. A person could then visit a trainer to switch between talent builds at no cost. To balance it out the cost for initially making (and changing) the talent builds would be higher (lets say it would cost 100g to customise a tree) and players would be restricted to switching their builds to once every 12 or 24 hours. By doing something like this blizzard would allow players to experience much more of their class and ultimately make the game more enjoyable for everybody.
But I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they get up to. As somebody with multiple 70s now though [no shaman sorry] I can honestly say that the people who are saying there is nothing wrong with shamans in the current end-game are either fooling themselves, ignorant, or blind. I hope that the shaman talent trees receive a review, their class is buffed, and that the game is made fun for the high level shamans out there!
plixer Nov 8th 2007 3:05AM
QQ..
woeye Nov 8th 2007 3:33AM
To all "QQ" posters: Well, try it yourself. Roll a shaman and have (no) fun. I am so damn sick of all those nerfs (elemental spike damage, earthshock, windfury, grounding totem). Maybe enhancement will change a bit in 2.3. But hey, I am specced elemental and my gear is tuned for elemental because enhancement was a no-no for PvP so far. I have better things to do than grinding for enhancement gear.
And honestly, playing my hunter in PvP IS more fun. Yes, it's not easy against certain classes. But then again hunters have a lot of tools and tricks.
Since I do not accept those garbage from Blizz anymore I canceled my account. There you go. Good thing is I have finally time for all those games I always wanted to play (STALKER, Crysis, ET:QW, Tabula Rasa, Witcher) ;-)
Viiva Nov 8th 2007 3:45AM
@38 tell me your joking about the paladin part, right ? right ?
Thijz Nov 8th 2007 3:59AM
My main is a shaman and I was just thinking to reroll a rogue or something like that. Enhancement sucks balls at the moment, my mana-pool is pathetic and while my dps is nice (but still depends heavily on my luck), my damage mitigation is so icredibly low I usually have to heal halfway a normal fight!
Ayclin Mar 26th 2008 2:56AM
@67 Um, if you're running out of mana half way through a fight, its called water sheild, and shamanistic rage. Or a mana pot. And any GOOD Shaman doesnt need to heal half way through a fight, any good DPS shaman has low armor high DPS output because you're not MEANT to get hit. Thats the Tanks job, and the locks job when they pull aggro :P
enlight Nov 8th 2007 5:31AM
Aye... i left my elemental shaman too... now rolled a Prot paladin and i must say its awesome...
ill wait for WotLK to "re check" my shaman.
Thornskin Nov 8th 2007 5:32AM
and ... i hope for crowd controll :(
包子 Nov 8th 2007 5:55AM
the group of shamans is so small I think
Amanda Nov 8th 2007 7:22AM
To the topic:
I don't think this will do anything to actually solve the problem, but at least it'll give them something to do in the time it takes Blizz to address the problems. :P
And now, to my sob story.
Last night, I hit 40 on my Enhance SHaman, and the guild ran Ulda w/ some friends. I was amazed that I was topping the DPS charts, and doing a whopping 38% of the damage, overall. 200 DPS maxes, and about 120 median DPS per battle. I was ever out DPSing a Hunter that was lvl 46.
It felt great.
Then I hit 41, and talented into Stormstrike...the DPS was outragous, but no matter what I did, it caused so much hate, that I'd be tanking. And if I DID lose hate, the Priest got it. This was no good...
As I looked deeper into each tree, and saw my skills...I noticed that, that measely 15% threat reduction in the Enhancement tree, was all I'd ever get.
Being able to MAX OUT the DPS and damage charts was great, but if there's no way to drop the hate, (w/o taking down the whole party) you're crap.
I realized then that I would never see endgame w/ my Shaman. And I realized why on my 70 Rogue, out of hundreds of runs of end game instances, I only ever had one (Resto) Shaman. And Tbh, he wasn't even that great...and he was Epic'd out the ass and w/ healing chants and gems.
It's unfortunate...seeing as how out of every class I've ever played, I click w/ Shaman. The mana and weapon combo makes me giddy, my ability to one-shot mobs my lvl, and solo lvl 40 Elites (at 40) made me think my class was going to be downright NEEDED. My totem buffs (which I put down all the time in partys, I also hate people that don't use totems) were great.
Not to mention how at 39, in mediocre gear, I could solo double mongoose twink Rogues. I could get beat on by 4 people, and manage to live long enuf to break their Warrior. My totems saved many MANY flags from being taken. And they saved me from many a Poly.
It truly saddens me that the one class (and spec of class) I love, and will play until 70, is completly useless because of one flaw. One screw up on Blizz's part...
And that's not even touching the Arena side of things.
I don't know the Elemental Shamans plight, but I sure as hell know Enhancement's now.
汪洋 Nov 8th 2007 7:44AM
我是中国玩家,我觉得SM最严重的问题就是装备需求复杂,没有人考虑到他的DPS能力.而且很难拿到装备.
Squishy Nov 8th 2007 8:30AM
Oh look. Shaman QQ on their already god-like DPS. Must be a day of the week that ends in 'y'.
Vestras Nov 8th 2007 9:04AM
Shamans more than any class in the game need an overhaul top to bottom to function in the post-BC content world. Warriors have slowly been repaired and many of the other classes have been redefined (feral druids) to the new contents needs. Shamans have remained stagnant. More totems is not what they needed.
Does this mean they can't do squat endgame? Hell no. My brother is an enhancement shaman and he rips his way through heroics. Resto shamans are great. Elemental Shamans are UP compared to other similar classes (Ret Pali/Balance Druid), but they still bring a little to the table, but in the end, for the non healing specs, it is not enough.
Enhancement needs aggro reduction, they are not off-off tanks anymore like back in the old MC days. Elemental need to be able to hold their own tossing spells out there, again, aggro reduction is needed, and removing their reliance on easily killable totems would be a plus. Resto shamans are good group healers, but mana managment on and the repositioning of totems can hurt in a lot of endgame encounters.
My 2c: Change up totems to have more utility or redesignate how they are deployed. For example, with the exception of the Elemental wrath totem, Fire is rarely used as they risk breaking CC. That means 1/4 of their potential augmentations are not being used. Maybe move other totems into fire, or even the grounding totem to "draw fire". Mobile totems are not nessessary, but totem survivability is. One good AoE or a few wands, and there goes your buffs. They is no function to defend your totems from attack in PVP. A hunter or Warlocks pet can be repositioned or healed should they be attacked, but the totem cannot without recasting. Other totems are useless (Sentry), and need to be rethought. Synergy is not nessessary for a shaman compared to other classes so some better diversification in their trees would help. As was said, most shamans spells are in the same school causing a counter spell to cause them a lot of hurt. Breaking things up a bit would help a lot.
Shamans bring a lot to the table, and some of the nerfs have hurt them, but they are not beyond redemption.