Insider Trader: Death of a salesman
by Lisa Poisso 
Nov 9th 2007 at 10:30AM
Insider Trader is your weekly inside line on making, selling, buying and using player-made products.
Forget the endless debate over "hardcore" versus "casual" – there's another moniker that we here at Insider Trader hold dear: "salesman." What's that? You don't know any salesmen in WoW these days? You're not alone. Times have changed since craftspeople toiled to build reputations as the go-to traders on their servers ... when Ironforge was the hub of civilization, where a few elite enchanters held court over the entire server with coveted formulae from such exotic locales as Stratholme and Scholomance.
It's a brave new world in today's Outland. Most enchanters don't enchant for the general public at all, unless you provide mats and a tip. And in any profession, with so many other players on the servers who have the same patterns (even rare patterns are generally available from more than one player) and so many easy ways to make money (hello, daily quests!), there's little reason to hang around town to build a regular clientele. Components provided or created by other professions are readily available on the Auction House – there's no need to seek out and nurture relationships with another player from a complementary profession.
Have the conveniences Blizzard has developed for today's crafters meant the death of the salesman?
Death of a salesman
I don't know how things are going on your server -- but where I play, nobody seems interested in crafting as a pastime in its own right anymore. Daily quests are the new money-making machine, and they're open to anyone, crafter or not. Player populations are high enough that most items and services are available from multiple sources at most times, on most servers.
What strikes me most about today's crafters is the air of aloof pragmatism, the pervasive idea of cranking up a profession in order to create a needed item or buff and then dropping that profession for something else.
Enchanting, the only profession that was designed to emphasize face-to-face transactions, is a telling example of how much things have changed. Enchanters today level up by enchanting their own gear over and over because paying customers are so scarce. Once they get the lay of the land, most 375 enchanters stop selling publicly at all, enchanting only for guildmates and friends (unless they're lucky enough to have a formula that's especially rare on their server). Disenchanting has become a mini-profession in its own right, especially since enchanters make more money selling mats than they do trying to sell enchants in a stagnant trade environment. Many players have their own enchanting alts to disenchant drops now, and sharding etiquette gives the whole PuG a shot at a shard. But the big change for enchanters is one that was announced at BlizzCon this August: enchanters will be able to create sellable items that players can use to enchant their own gear. While Blizzard says this system will only cover lower level enchants, it does lend an air of finality to what remains of the practice of hawking your wares in town.
Tips tap out
Complicating matters for salespeople is the unpleasant topic of tipping. Forum flaming, /ooc and /trade spam wars, badmouthing at all levels – when one player doesn't tip the way another player thinks is appropriate, things go downhill fast. But if you're unfamiliar with the demands of a particular profession, how do you know what's kosher and what's not? Hard to say. What's appropriate varies from server to server and evolves over time -- sometimes as quickly as a matter of days or weeks, as servers access new and more potent content and recipes. How's a poor casual orc supposed to keep up with the times?
While many players belong to guilds with considerable crafting resources, players who truly need the services of other players do still come to the cities in search of trades. Those who do must brave the WoW economy's latest challenge: the ugly state of tipping today. Tipping used to be the way to make a profit from trades. Today, it's most often considered an optional courtesy, although plenty of debate still rages over whether or not crafters should ask for "tips" or "fees." The general consensus seems to tip toward tipping ... But how much?
Like the players who consider playing the market on the Auction House a mini-game within WoW, there are still diehard craftspeople who think the process of buying, selling and creating is enjoyable in and of itself. Those tradesfolk may be going the way of the Molten Core raider, however, in the face of faster and easier ways to make money ... higher server populations with more widespread pattern availability ... the proliferation of multiple alts to handle multiple professions ... and the sheer attraction of more new content at all levels. For the old-fashioned salesman of Azeroth, it may be curtain time.
Insider Trader's Lisa Poisso is a writer and editor, when she's not wondering what to do with her time now that nobody stands around hawking services in the trade channel anymore.
Forget the endless debate over "hardcore" versus "casual" – there's another moniker that we here at Insider Trader hold dear: "salesman." What's that? You don't know any salesmen in WoW these days? You're not alone. Times have changed since craftspeople toiled to build reputations as the go-to traders on their servers ... when Ironforge was the hub of civilization, where a few elite enchanters held court over the entire server with coveted formulae from such exotic locales as Stratholme and Scholomance.It's a brave new world in today's Outland. Most enchanters don't enchant for the general public at all, unless you provide mats and a tip. And in any profession, with so many other players on the servers who have the same patterns (even rare patterns are generally available from more than one player) and so many easy ways to make money (hello, daily quests!), there's little reason to hang around town to build a regular clientele. Components provided or created by other professions are readily available on the Auction House – there's no need to seek out and nurture relationships with another player from a complementary profession.
Have the conveniences Blizzard has developed for today's crafters meant the death of the salesman?
Death of a salesman
I don't know how things are going on your server -- but where I play, nobody seems interested in crafting as a pastime in its own right anymore. Daily quests are the new money-making machine, and they're open to anyone, crafter or not. Player populations are high enough that most items and services are available from multiple sources at most times, on most servers.
What strikes me most about today's crafters is the air of aloof pragmatism, the pervasive idea of cranking up a profession in order to create a needed item or buff and then dropping that profession for something else.
Enchanting, the only profession that was designed to emphasize face-to-face transactions, is a telling example of how much things have changed. Enchanters today level up by enchanting their own gear over and over because paying customers are so scarce. Once they get the lay of the land, most 375 enchanters stop selling publicly at all, enchanting only for guildmates and friends (unless they're lucky enough to have a formula that's especially rare on their server). Disenchanting has become a mini-profession in its own right, especially since enchanters make more money selling mats than they do trying to sell enchants in a stagnant trade environment. Many players have their own enchanting alts to disenchant drops now, and sharding etiquette gives the whole PuG a shot at a shard. But the big change for enchanters is one that was announced at BlizzCon this August: enchanters will be able to create sellable items that players can use to enchant their own gear. While Blizzard says this system will only cover lower level enchants, it does lend an air of finality to what remains of the practice of hawking your wares in town.
Tips tap out
Complicating matters for salespeople is the unpleasant topic of tipping. Forum flaming, /ooc and /trade spam wars, badmouthing at all levels – when one player doesn't tip the way another player thinks is appropriate, things go downhill fast. But if you're unfamiliar with the demands of a particular profession, how do you know what's kosher and what's not? Hard to say. What's appropriate varies from server to server and evolves over time -- sometimes as quickly as a matter of days or weeks, as servers access new and more potent content and recipes. How's a poor casual orc supposed to keep up with the times?
While many players belong to guilds with considerable crafting resources, players who truly need the services of other players do still come to the cities in search of trades. Those who do must brave the WoW economy's latest challenge: the ugly state of tipping today. Tipping used to be the way to make a profit from trades. Today, it's most often considered an optional courtesy, although plenty of debate still rages over whether or not crafters should ask for "tips" or "fees." The general consensus seems to tip toward tipping ... But how much?
Like the players who consider playing the market on the Auction House a mini-game within WoW, there are still diehard craftspeople who think the process of buying, selling and creating is enjoyable in and of itself. Those tradesfolk may be going the way of the Molten Core raider, however, in the face of faster and easier ways to make money ... higher server populations with more widespread pattern availability ... the proliferation of multiple alts to handle multiple professions ... and the sheer attraction of more new content at all levels. For the old-fashioned salesman of Azeroth, it may be curtain time.
Insider Trader's Lisa Poisso is a writer and editor, when she's not wondering what to do with her time now that nobody stands around hawking services in the trade channel anymore.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, WoW Social Conventions, Economy, Making money, Insider Trader (Professions)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
niko Nov 9th 2007 3:53PM
good article. What you bring up here is a state of staleness in a part of the game that Blizzard has to deal with. Just like class balance, professions must have a balance, too, and with the release of BC, the old way of doing crafting/enchanting professions has pretty much become a non-social event. Recipes that are BoP in the upper crust make most people unconcerned with helping lower levels with their stuff. I mean, if I still need 10 more points in my skill to make some epic robe for my char, I'm really not thinking about helping some lvl 23 with his wool stuff.
Either way, it's ebb and flow in the game. The game changes, people adjust. Is it sad enchanters are no longer demigods in IF? Nah, not too sad... but do I miss the interaction and newness of meeting new people that also want to meet me? yeah, quite so.
Imogynn Nov 9th 2007 3:54PM
There is actually a new and fairly busy crafting market.
But it is based on getting out and doing heroics for Primal Nethers and not sitting in IF collecting tips.
I think I like the change.
Donjo Nov 9th 2007 11:21AM
The true death of a salesman happened when they allowed everybody to take 2 professions. Nethers are a step in the right direction but I don't think it is going to get any better than that. The fact is, unless you are one of the lucky few to get a rare pattern, you aren't going to make money with your profession. Nethers were profitable when they were new but now you figure if it takes an hour to run a heroic (usually less than that for most) and you have a 1 in 4 shot at the nether (since there is usually one person who isn't interested) then you make about 12.5g per hour on nether craftable gear in the long run (nethers on my server go for about 50g).
As much as I loved the original crafting system in SWG, I don't think something like that would ever fit this game. It was super complex but also rewarding to those who chose to master it. Big business owners were the richest people on the server, just as it is in the real world. But in WoW most of the rich people are those who play the auction house like a stock market, or rogues who farm mana tombs all day everyday. Being an average crafter just can't compete.
Tridus Nov 9th 2007 11:28AM
I've noticed some really ugly changes on my server. For one thing, people no longer sell Primal Mights for gold. Why? Its not worth it. What they do instead is sell Primal Mights for... the 5 primals used to create it.
The thing is that the 5 primals collectively are worth more then the Primal Might is, so if you make and sell a Primal Might you're actually losing money. (Most Alchemists I know also don't even bother selling Transmutes now, since Earth to Water makes 3x more gold then you can get selling a Transmute.)
The other major problem is in Engineering and Blacksmithing, where the last 15 points are absurdly expensive in materials. What I see is people sitting in trade offering 20g to anyone who brings them the materials to craft something.
Thats right. You want a scope made? Let me make it, and I'll give you 20g for the privilege.
When we get to the point that crafters are paying other people in order to get to advance their skill, the system is completely broken.
Avrail Nov 9th 2007 11:30AM
Great article.
Even in a medium side guild, there are certain enchants/craftables that are not available to my characters. Either the guildie is not online or no one from my guild has that recipe. Making the Whitemend Hood for my priest took a good 3 weeks to find a player that has the recipe and have a nether.
What I think is sorely lacking in WoW is a way of finding players with a particular recipe, especially the rare drop ones.
porovaara Nov 9th 2007 11:38AM
Crafting has always sucked in Wow and was intended as nothing more than a money sink. The only real way to fix it is to have multiple pieces of gear for each slot equal to the last seasons arena gear in iLvL. This gear should be incredibly expensive to make, but almost entirely farmable for casuals and solo players except for a few key components like nethers. This encourages the people who have maxed professions and rare recipes from exalted faction and raiding to actually make items for other players. People who play 20 hours a week plus are going to get their gear already, give casuals the "free epics" from playing however they want.
And BTW enchanting is a horrible profession. It's the only one in WoW that actually forced you to sit in a city and sell your warez while everyone else was out running stuff or farming materials. It is somewhat mind boggling that the new profession coming will have sellable AH "enchants" yet enchanters still don't have scrolls or any other way to sell other than spamming trade.
WoW's economy is incredibly broken, goods are priced at random and an item's price often has nothing to do with the rarity. This is mitigated greatly by the BoP system but when the solution to remove money from the players is to add a 2k mount on top of a 5k charge for the skill? Yeah.
Michael Thorsen Nov 9th 2007 11:40AM
I think this is a very timely and appropriate article. I didn't start playing WoW until after BC came out, but I think that having to level "old-world" patterns early on helped me to appreciate the amount of work that leveling a profession truly entails.
The article mentions the proliferation of alts as an alternative to seeking out true crafters. I think that this is only 1/2 of the problem. I am a perfect example of using alts. As it stands, I have 4 lvl 70's and a lvl 60. Their respective professions are:
375 mining/375 BS Mace (paladin)
375 tailoring/375 herbing (mage)
375 alch x-mute/375 enchant (warrior)
375 skinning/370 LW (rogue)
300+ mining/355 JC (shaman lvl 60)
I raid with my pally and rogue and use the mage and the warrior's professions as a way to get around the hassle of trying to find someone to make stuff for me. Only my Blacksmith and my Tailor have any truly "rare" recipes, but even then, about half of them are BOE patterns for BOE items. This leads me to the second half of what I see to be a problem with crafting professions in general; BOE patterns for BOP items.
On my server, US-Guldan Alliance, there is only 1 guild raiding BT/MtHyj. There used to be 3, but now only 2 guilds in SSC/TK. This low number of raiders would lead you to believe that crafters on this server should make a pretty good living--fewer chances to get rare patterns drives down the supply quotient . Unfortunately this isn't the case.
For example, I bought my rogue the LW pattern for the Boots of Utter Darkness. Not an amazing pattern but pretty solid as a second pair of boots for when I have reached the +hit cap. Anyway, I paid 600g for the pattern because it had never been seen on my server and because it only needs primal nethers. The pattern was BOE which is great for me because at the time, my rogue hadn't yet gotten into SSC/TK, but the item made is BOP. So, I couldn't sell the pattern at a reduced price to a LW friend to have them make it for me. As such, I dropped my enchanting (which by the way, I only picked up so that I could DE all the Outland quest rewards) and started to level up my leatherworking SOLEY FOR THE PURPOSE OF EQUIPPING THESE BOOTS. This, I feel, leads less experienced player to think that professions are taken up for the benefit of the crafter rather than the marketplace.
Furthermore, the BOP patterns that make BOE items that can be found in the current t5-t6 end-game content requires Nether Vortexes to craft. I know my guild still requires that we spend DKP on these and it is expressly not allowed to use the nether vortexes for anyone outside of the guild. I think the reasoning behind this to benefit the guild before the server is understandable, but it also puts the best crafted items out of reach for most players, and thus, lowers even further the demand for such BOE items because the materials aren't readily available.
Now, this may be my naivete at work here, but to summarize, it is the proliferation of alts and the "relative" ease at which the vast majority of recipes can be had, in COMBINATION with the increase in BOP crafted items and teh general unavailability of the opportunity on the server to obtain the mats for the best BOE items that has lead to the downfall of the crafting professions in general.
Thanks again for such a great topic starter.
Heike Nov 9th 2007 11:49AM
Crafting has always been broken - the amount of trash items you have to make in order to skillup quickly borders on insane. And with the exception of a few rare world drops or instancer/raid patterns, there's very little worth it in most professions for most people - and usually the mats on those are either hugely expensive or time-consuming to farm.
Which is sad, because I love crafting.
I am hoping that the new cooking quests will be a step in the right direction, making crafting a little more viable. How great would it be if you could skillup crafting through a series of quests? I would love it. I remember doing the quest to become a Tribal Leatherworker and it was exciting to me - that's what I'd like to see again, more interaction - but interaction that leads to increased skill and patterns that are useful.
AND appropriate costs. Primals are worth more than a Primal Might which is worth more than a Riding Crop. Losing money should not be the state of the game.
The BOP stuff is also a little frustrating. I like crafting, and I like being able to craft different things on different characters. But it further increases mat costs and decreases item worth when everybody has to be their own crafter. And in my case, I'm currently leveling tailoring up to 375 on a second toon - because they both want the crafted epic BOPs.
Michael Nov 9th 2007 11:46AM
I used to sell enchants and gem cuts on my server to the public. I charged a small fee for them, which varied depending on the rarity and quality of the enchant or gem. However I've encountered for every 10 happy customers I would encounter one HUGE jerk that would throw a big fit in general and trade chat that I wanted to charge him/her 5g for mongoose, or 5g per stack of adamantite ore to prospect. As if I owed them my time, and free arbitrage opportunity to turn a stack of ore that's 15g on the auction house into a 20 - 50g gem.
Pre-TBC the players seemed more civil, however something's definitely changed at my servers. Perhaps the primary player demographic has changed drastically. Who knows? I completely stopped offering my services and finally turned off the dreaded trade channel permanently.
Dave Nov 9th 2007 12:04PM
The econ on my server is kinda screwy.
The real reason most alchemists transmute their own primal mights and trade for mats rather than sell, should be pretty obvious. Xmute spec gives you a chance of hitting a 5x every once in a while (or at least getting a bonus proc) and whenever that happens in front of someone "buying" your transmute, that person feels they're owed the extra primals from the transmute. Nevermind that the person didn't spend a LOT of money making expensive and moderately useless pots and elixirs to get to 375 alchemy, and ESPECIALLY nevermind that they blew 4 primal mights just getting xmute spec (unless they were smart and went potions and paid the 150g to respec to xmute, saving 300g), most people feel that their minor contribution of mats and a tip means they're entitled to the bonus of someone's transmute. No thanks!
I personally trade mats for made things. If I need money, I sell excess mats. Mats are almost always worth more than the product of their parts. Primal Fire, 20g. Primal Shadow, 15g. Shadowcloth? 30g. You eat 5g by making this cloth as a non-spec transmute. Same for spellcloth. Mooncloth actually is semi-profitable since Life is only worth 10g, but you're really scraping the profit line there.
Most of the rest of the crafting professions, you eat so much money just getting to the point of making anything at all worth selling to anyone, that it's really sorta useless to even try to do it for anyone but yourself. Blacksmithing is essentially just a tool to get your own crafted epic weapons as far as I'm concerned and barely any of it's worth crafting for other people. All the good stuff is BOP anyway.
That's pretty much how it is for all the professions unfortunately. It's all BOP if it's worth using, and even then it's so expensive that it's not really worth taking the time to farm the mats or buy the mats and eat even more money making it. Professions are essentially now just tools to get yourself some good gear and that's mostly it. Or to gather raw mats and sell them to other suckers who want their shiny purples or whatever. (like me... oh the tragedy).
Erika Nov 9th 2007 12:56PM
I am a engie and i make stuff and i don't accept tips. But its only to 359 so nobody needs the anything i can make until i get the scope from kara. I dont like the bop recipes. If anything they should be removed. I see no downside in it. There is more to make and a opportunity to get them made.
Paul Nov 9th 2007 1:43PM
The only way to avoid having the trade materials be worth more than the completed product, and people actually get paid for their professions, is by doing away with the profession skillup system altogether, and putting more level requirements on each skill- level requirements for the enchanter, and for the enchantee.
If, for instance, you were an enchanter and you were a level 33, you had access to the recipes of all levels up to level 33 (except for some rare drops or something), then the profession's goal would only be to make money by performing enchants-- the goal would no longer to simply level up your profession.
This would mean lower level characters who picked up enchanting could actually make money selling enchants to other lower level characters, instead of giving them away or paying them to take the enchant.
Krick Nov 9th 2007 3:12PM
I have several toons:
70 Rogue - Enchanting (365) / Engineering (358)
68 Paladin - Jewelcrafting (358) / Mining (375)
52 Priest - Tailoring (375) / Skinning (314)
Since I don't raid, I really don't have access to the best enchant patterns for my rogue, and engineering sucks, so that toon's pretty much useless all around except for enchanting my own BoE items.
I actually sell a few of the lower level blue rings that my pally makes on a regular basis, but most of the time, I just crank out Golden Draenite Ring and Fel Iron Blood Ring so that my rogue can shard them for Arcane Dust.
I actually make a little coin with my tailor, believe it or not. I sell Star Belt, Shadow Hood, Rich Purple Silk Shirt, Admiral's Hat, and Cloak of Eternity fairly regularly on the auction house. I'm currently trying to level my tailor to 60 so I can specialize. I really only want to make Primal Mooncloth Bags so I'm thinking of specializing in primal Mooncloth, however people have suggested that the other two cloth types are in much higher demand and I might be able to trade 2 for 1 and get more Primal Mooncloth that way.
When it comes to Enchants, once you get into higher end instance gear, everything is BoP so non-enchanters are forced to seek out an enchanter in the trade channel. I usually tip an amount roughly equal to what a quest gives at my level. The other night, I got a shield enchant on my pally and I tipped the enchanter 10g. I think they were shocked, actually.
...
Krick
http://www.tankadin.com
Tomte Nov 9th 2007 3:49PM
One thing that we all take for granted in WoW is that stuff never breaks. Sure, it wears down and might lose its function until repaired, but it never breaks irreparably. If our real-life cars, homes, computers, etc., were like this, how would IRL crafting get by? If different types of equipment required crafters' assistance to be "recharged" after so much damage (play with the pairings between gear and specialty as you see fit), that might breathe new life into crafter trades.
Sky_Paladin Nov 9th 2007 4:49PM
Crafting is not-for-profit right now because:
A) Materials are more valuable than the finished product
B) The crafted items that can be sold are of inferior quality to what can be found in the world (with rare exceptions).
To fix A:
Everybody knows: Cost = demand - supply.
Reduce demand - increase drop rates of all uncommon and rare crafting materials OR reduce the amount of materials required to craft an item.
Increase supply - Boost the number of crafted items created from the same number of materials.
Everybody knows: Time = Money.
To fix B: Add a lengthy cooldown (days, weeks or months) for crafting BOP items. Remove the BOP restriction on all crafted items. Make BOP items unique (you can only be carrying one at any given time) so you cannot spam the AH with them.
This reduces the supply of these BOP items, increasing their value and subsequently their cost.
Change the profession-based-equip restrictions to profession-based-bonuses. EXAMPLE: Felsteel set currently provides +25 str if the wearer is a blacksmith, making it less valuable to non-blacksmiths. It would be better if the kind of bonus it gave was modified by the two primary professions (plus specialties and skill levels) of the bearer.
EXAMPLE: Enchanting +int, Cooking +health, Mining +str, Leatherworking +armor, Armorsmith +defence, weaponsmith +attack power, etc, etc.
Pål Nov 9th 2007 6:03PM
I'm a Tailor/Enchanter, and I love my trade skills... I recently grinded Cenarion Circle for the patterns and formulas they have, and the Consortium for theirs. I've done the same with Timbermaw Hold and Thorium Brotherhood, even though many of the items from said factions are worthless today. I love leveling professions and learning new things to make... I don't care how much money I lose, I love it anyway.
That being said, leveling Tailoring and making the Spellfire set was absolutely worth it.
Green Armadillo Nov 9th 2007 6:34PM
A game designer has a choice - make crafting unpleasant to ensure that few people will tough it out, leaving a real market for those who make it, or make crafting sufficiently accessible that anyone can do it. Blizzard has not only taken the path of accessibility (the last 15 points of blacksmithing notwithstanding), it has added a carrot to the end of the grind in the form of BoP benefits for leveling professions (gear, ring enchants, etc). Why would they do this to the proud, few hardcore crafters?
Time. A painful crafting system, including difficult skillups and the possibility of losing materials in failed crafting attempts, is enough to deter most sensible people from trying. Now, if you're charging a monthly fee for access to an MMORPG, which of the following would you prefer?
A) A crafting system that few can master, with significant reward for those who do?
B) A crafting system that offers an alternate form of solo advancement for every single endgame character, offering every single subscriber another thing to keep them paying for another month instead of running out of content and canceling?
It's not a hard choice.
Wrenzo Nov 9th 2007 8:57PM
@16 I'm with you, with an exception. I'm a Tailor/Enchanter and while I love Tailoring, I hate Enchanting. The only reason I still have it is to d/e items and to enchant my rings. Once Inscription is out I'll most likely drop Enchanting for that. Although, if we were ever to gain a 3rd primary profession I'd take Mining/Engineering.
I'm currently trying to get the Spellstrike patterns, as I hate the thought of having to wear something tailored that I haven't made myself.
Konchu Nov 9th 2007 9:01PM
I think crafting in the game has become fundementally flawed. I have always enjoyed that WOW's crafting as the craft skills are not filled with total crap at the begining as many of the items are usable and better than drops as soon as you start making them. I remember taking up pottert in EQ that was a test in patience making all kinds of vendor trash just to get better.
The Flaws though are that many crafts are now one trick ponies just to get one item made. As well as people have so many Alts they can make anything the want. I think for crafts to re emerge from this dark time they need more dynamics and depth more patterns and variants.Otherwise crafting will have no worth other than personal builds.