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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsHunters no longer have FD Drink in 2.3: Bug fix or nerf?
by Robin Torres 
Nov 15th 2007 at 8:30AM
There is a new uproar on the forums, this time from Hunters -- petitions, titles in all caps, threads being moderated, etc. What are they all upset about? It seems an important item was left off of the Patch 2.3 notes:- Fixed a bug in which Hunters were able to disengage from combat using Feign Death during boss encounters.
The Hunters are upset because they were not just using Feign Death to drop aggro during boss fights, they were also restoring mana by drinking.
It has been suggested that this was actually nerfed because not only could you drink during a boss fight, you could also change gear. Nethaera agrees that this functionality was not intended, but still maintains this is a bug fix and not a nerf.
Along with the standard flame posts you would expect in this thread, there are also some constructive comments with possible solutions. Nethaera has promised to pass them onto the development team, particularly these two points:
- Hunter mana efficiency needs to be increased so that they don't need to drink during boss fights.
- Hunters should be able to feed their pets after being revived during a boss fight.
The fact that this "bug" is only "fixed" for boss fights is interesting. Also, did this just go unnoticed by players on the Test Realms or was this a last minute change added after the PTRs closed down before the patch? The details do seem a bit fishy.
What do you think? Bug fix or nerf?
| It's a nerf! Where's the petition? | |
|---|---|
| It's a bug fix. Hunters shouldn't be able to kick back and relax during boss fights. | |
| Ooooh! Polls are pretty. |
Filed under: Hunter, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Bugs, News items, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Kris Nov 15th 2007 10:48AM
@31... Every hit that a hunter inflicts requires a reagent, ie ammo/arrows, averaging at least 10 gold per full bag. Ensuring your pet remains happy enough to deal a good amount of damage requires a reagent, ie meat/fish/fruit ect.
FDing to avoid death was the only way to counter this extra cost that other classes don't pay. That is the reason we have it in the first place.
I will be sure to lol at every rogue I see now just for you.
Todd Nov 15th 2007 10:50AM
@Rijnsburg
Are you actually complaining about having a loss in DPS competition?
Zhalseran Nov 15th 2007 10:52AM
@18 Mages may have 3 methods of regenerating mana, but they need it. They do damage entirely through spell casting, without mana they have no DPS. Hunters may see a big drop in DPS when they run out of mana, but you can still attack, whereas mages get to wand and pretend they are doing something. You don't need the same mana regeneration as a mage, if for no other reason than fireball costs at least 3x as much as steady shot
I see this as a bug fix and not a nerf. Certainly it can be perceived as a nerf because it does lessen your ability if you are dumb and can't monitor your own mana, but drinking during boss battles isn't something you should be able to do in the first place, let alone change gear.
vaelin Nov 15th 2007 10:58AM
I have a hunter as my primary alt (they're fun, a nice change from playing a melee class as a main, and make great miners with several ways to keep adds busy while you plink away).
I don't really see this as a nerf. First of all, the change supposedly on affects FD-drink on boss fights. It still works on trash. As for mana regen, Hunters in any raid situation should have a lot of help with this. Between Aspect of the Viper, Blessing of Wisdom and Judgement of Wisdom (assuming your raid leader isn't too proud/stubborn/stupid to bring a Ret Paladin along to keep multiple judgements up), there's a substantial amount of in-combat mana regen available.
Yes, it will be inconvenient as people come to adapt to the changes, but Hunters more than made up for it in the way of buffs for 2.3 - especially in PvP.
Salty Nov 15th 2007 11:00AM
1) FD still drops all of your threat, period.
2) On trash mobs, FD/drink during combat still works
3) As #32 said, there may be a possibility that Mark as a debuff keeps you in combat, though comments from Blizzard seem to indicate that the effect is intentional and may not depend on mark at all. I will try this.
4) You are not a huntard if you ever did FD/drink, it requires you to think to realize that was a possibility. Huntards only think FD is for surviving wipes.
5) Yes, it was probably never intended to be allowed, it was a pleasant little trick, but not clutch to any fight... There were plenty of times when it is was just peachy and quite advantageous to do this. On Magtheridon when the raid stops DPS before 30% to allow for a banish and a raid top-off before you take him down to 30% and the ceiling collapses (lets you regen mana so you can use your pot timer for a health pot and healthstone). On Lurker for the 25 seconds that you are waiting around for him to come out of the water. On Netherspite when you get to the back wall and have 10-12 seconds to bandage/drink. I never heard my guildies complain in these fights when my DPS went up because I wasn't in low battery mode.
6) I never tried the XL combat res being quite tricky and distracting to pull off, but since the XLs are no longer trinkets (and do not require the 30 second warm-up), I would think that if you can manage to drop combat (trash or boss), it is probably much easier.
7) I never saw a hunter who irresponsibility used this ability. If you have, I would hope that you berated him as an individual, rather than developing an irrational distaste for Hunters in general. Why do other classes seem so vindictive against Hunters using this ability? They are your team mates - they are on your side. You complaining about this type of mechanic resulting in blue action nerfs YOU as an extension of your raid. It's only jealousy and bitterness that other classes are complaining about this rarely used little gem, hardly exploitive and quite innovative if pulled off.
Salty Nov 15th 2007 11:07AM
8) You can still survive a wipe with FD, that has not changed.
There's a lot of petty ignorance in this thread. People complaining about Hunters having this ability obviously don't think cooperatively.
Deser Nov 15th 2007 11:10AM
Also - I don't believe this is going to affect not dying during a wipe...you guys really need to learn your game mechanics...
The reason why this new change is preventing you from drinking after a FD is because it keeps you in combat. FD will still remove you from the aggro list it just will not take you out of combat. So after you realize its a wipe you FD, no longer have aggro, boss stops attacking you, you live.
Its the same reason that before they changed this you had to pull your pet out of combat before you could drink.
TO SUMMARIZE FOR THE LAZY:
Before the Patch: FD dropped aggro AND took you out of combat
After the Patch: FD drops aggro but does not take you out of combat.
JediGadget Nov 15th 2007 11:18AM
Didn't they change the boss fights a WHILE ago where if you're in the area you're always IN COMBAT? I remember when they changed it we were still raiding Molten Core and it sucked because we couldnt die and Reincarnate (as shaman) and rez the dead anymore.
Did Hunters just get overlooked in that change? Why should they be treated any different than all the other classes? I'm glad they fixed it (no offense hunters) but suprised it took so long for them to do so.
From what I understand, EVERYONE is IN COMBAT when a boss fight is initialized until they die. Even if they get rezed, reincarnate or feign death, they are put RIGHT back into combat as soon as they are up. Is that wrong?
It sounds very much like a bug fix to me, just one that was allowed to be used for so long people got used to it. Unfortunate, but I think it's fair.
On a side note, if Hunters whine enough to get it changed, then Shaman should be out of combat when Reincarnating in boss battles too! We have WAY more horrid mana efficience than Hunters, and we NEED mana. :P
Wolfkin Nov 15th 2007 11:30AM
Salty, #45, clearly wins this thread. He managed to give the rational arguments of both sides without being verbally abusive, demonstrating ignorance, or dropping the "I/My friend is the hunter raid leader for my guild so the rest of you don't know anything" card. Well played sir.
Coannun, on the other hand, manages all three without making any argument at all.
Is this a nerf? Yes. Regardless of whether this was an intended use of game mechanics or not, smart hunters have been using this "bug" situationally from MC, through AQ, and into Outland to supplement the poor itemization and mana regen the hunter class is currently saddled with.
Is it the end of the world? No. We'll adjust, as we always do when Blizz takes away something beneficial to our class. Personally, I'm already chain chugging pots in raid instances, so it's not like that's going to change one way or the other, but it would be nice to see some better mana regen for the class as a whole. Mages have a number of very nice options, and I think the hunter reliance on mana is closer to mages than they would like to admit. Or maybe even closer than Blizz realizes.
And to all the mages that are saying that auto shot > wand when oom, I just want to direct your attention to the fact that ilevel 115 wands have about twice as much paper dps as equal level bows and guns do.
Todd Nov 15th 2007 11:41AM
@Wolfkin
Don't Hunters have greater range than mages, in comparison to bows/guns and wands.
Wolfkin Nov 15th 2007 11:46AM
@Todd
When spending 3 talent points for Hawk Eye, yes, absolutely. However, I'd feel pretty safe arguing that the extra 6 yards of range doesn't affect oom dps 99.9% of the time on boss fights.
Spenda Nov 15th 2007 11:55AM
To all of the folks suggesting other classes "actually need mana." You have no idea how the hunter class works. My DPS would be less than half of its potential without mana, and if I'm sitting around waiting for mana to get my DPS back up, then I'm not doing my job in a boss fight. I personally have no problem with this change, because hunters do have a mana regen ability that isn't half bad and was buffed considerably in 2.2 (aspect of the viper). While I don't enjoy the drop in DPS when I switch from aspect of the hawk to aspect of the viper, it sure beats the drop in DPS that would result from sitting on the floor drinking.
Others have pointed out situations that would have been good to use this ability in the past, and they are right, but that doesn't mean it was essential to the class. It was a fun glitch while it lasted, but call this a nerf is a little unfair. The game was broken, and they fixed it. They didn't design hunters with the idea that they should get to mana-up in the middle of a fight, so they fixed it. They didn't design hunters to double trap, so they fixed it.
I don't cry when they fix warlocks, so I try not to cry when they fix hunters. Especially not right after they fix my deadzone (yay, I didn't have to choose between getting charged or not doing any dps on the Attunmen fight last night).
Amashinga Nov 15th 2007 12:01PM
@17 Your comments are fairly typical of someone who has never played the class. There are very few hunters that can capably chain trap. Only the really elite were able to trap multiple mobs at once, and it also required a 41 point talent to do. It was something that took a lot of skill, and even more practice, practice, practice. Equating chain trapping at this level with sheeping is just ignorant.
Taking this ability is just another step in the continual dumbing down of the game. This is not an ability that was OP. The ability was directly related to the players skill. The opportunity to develop that skill has been removed.
As far as the FD issue goes, fine, no problem, except that when our pet rezes, we need them to be at full happiness, or we have an issue.
Jason McLeod Nov 15th 2007 6:46PM
I play a 70 hunter, and this sounds like a fixed bug to me. You shouldn't be able to eat and drink during any fight.
Ahoni Nov 15th 2007 12:21PM
Seems to me this is just a bug fix. Boss fights were adjusted several patches ago, maybe as long as a year, so that the boss has a "pulse" every few seconds that puts the entire raid into combat. This was done to stop raids from leaving a priest/shammy/pally in the background, out of combat who would be able to res people during the fight. This was an obvious exploit of game mechanics, and was not the intended way to approach a boss encounter, so Blizz added the pulse, which puts everyone in the instance in combat when the boss is engaged.
The way it was designed, if I recal correcly, is that Rogues could use vanish or Hunters use Feign Death, but the next pulse, in 2 seconds, would put them back in combat. If they were the last person alive, FD or Vanish would take them out of combat and the boss would reset. If a hunter was able to stay out of combat after FD'ing on a boss fight, it is a bug.
Do hunters NEED to FD during boss fights? Stupid ones who don't know how to conserve mana. Mana conservation is an issue for EVERY class with mana. most classes deal with it without whining. Ok, perhaps not. Fel Mana potions seem to be made specifically for hunters. Restore 3200 mana over 24 seconds but reduces spell damage by 25. That is nothing but Win for hunters. Use mana pots. Everyone does. I have a 70 hunter and a 70 lock. Both use mana pots on boss fights. Sure, the hunter uses them more often, but both use them. Get used to it, it is how the game is designed.
Basic Nov 15th 2007 12:29PM
It's almost like aspect of the viper was changed IN ANTICIPATION of this fix... those sneaky bastards.
Mawnstroe Nov 15th 2007 3:18PM
Dearest Huntards...If you aren't a Huntard, then please disregard this message. This message is NOT for those of you who have been reading the posts in their entirety and responding intelligently.
Ahem...Most all of these posts are exactly why Hunters have bad rep:
jumping to conclusions
name calling
telling people "you obviously don't know how to play a hunter" and then berating them about saying "I play a hunter" in response to your flame;
and complaining about something that is a fix because Blizzard made the double trap exploit you used function as it was described in game.
OK, so my main is a Warrior. Here we go...let's say that I use Shield Bash and read the TOOLTIP/INSTRUCTIONS for it and discover that Blizzard says the Shield Bash disrupts spell casting and prevents spell casting from that spell family for 6 seconds. However, when I use it in PVP I find out that it actually blocks ALL spell casting for 6 seconds, not just from a particular spell family. I try it against Mobs and, lo and behold, it prevents ALL spell casting for 6 seconds. So, Blizzard says it prevents from a family but in reality it prevents ALL spell casting, similar to silence. So I merrily use it and kick the crap out of spell-based mobs and power-level myself to 60. Then, Blizzard FIXES the Shield Bash so that it only works against the spell family I interrupted...what do I do?
If I mimic many of the people in this posting, I would start complaining about this "nerf" when in fact it is simply LOSING AN EXPLOIT.
Honestly, folks...take a deep breath, take some time to reread some posts, reread your specs and info IN GAME instead of what you assumed the specials do and then post.
Thank you for those who have posted intelligently...I realize most all of you have been flamed by now, but keep up the good work. I only wish we had /ignore for these posts...I would have a lot fewer posts to read.
Sincerely,
A Sensible Warrior
Poormojo Nov 15th 2007 4:36PM
FD + feed pet was what I used it for mostly. I hope they enable us to just finally feed our pets while in combat. Because, seriously, who would that hurt?
MechChef Nov 15th 2007 12:58PM
"I love how all classes whine about hunters not having to pay repair bills. All of you forget the fact that hunters literally shoot gold."
Nice sweeping generalization. I stab gold. To maximize my DPS and overall killing power, I pay for poisons and I use them religiously. And even if I did pickpocket mobs for reagents, I still have to buy vials. Hence, IT STILL COSTS ME MONEY. And you know what? I accept it. And once it's applied, it doesn't matter if I stab 1 mob or 50, the money is gone, unlike arrows. And just like no one makes me use poisons, no one makes you use arrows/bullets. Go melee. ;)
Moreover, I too have an ability the breaks combat. But, lo and behold, it COSTS MONEY. You're not a martyr, and neither are rogues. So you STFU.
navalpha Nov 15th 2007 12:58PM
One of the main reasons i picked a hunter as my main was FD/unequip all gear.
I recently switched to a shaman and been thinking of going back to my hunter after 2.3's major hunter changes but now...