Officers' Quarters: Zero-pressure raiding?
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.For many WoW players, the prospect of seeing all the raiding content the game has to offer is just a dream. They don't want to be part of a hardcore raiding guild with all the attendance requirements, strict loot systems, and, for lack of a better word, pressure. But can zero-pressure raiding work? The writer of this week's e-mail wants to know.
Dear Mr. Andrews,
I found your column while searching for other information, and find
myself up at 6:30am after reading almost all of your articles. They
are very informative and I thank you for sharing your experience.
I am seeking advice on how best to move our guild forward. I should
provide some context and maybe it will provide you with some insight
into what I am looking for.
I inherited our guild from a personal friend (outside of WoW). [. . .] After
one to two months of managing a guild with about 30 players and maybe
10-15 active, my friend decided it was too much work and handed it
over to me.
I hit the ground running, trusted mature players and
together we grew our guild. We now average around 70 members with at
least 30 or more quite active. I feel that we have been successful
considering that I took over as GL in March of this year.
The officers in the guild are mature but with only a few that have
vast experience (I am not one with vast exp). Most of us have children,
mortgages, etc. We are almost all interested in moving into instances
and raids quite regularly. We have more than enough active members for
most of the content. My concern would be how best to move towards that
content without affecting our relaxed, friendly atmosphere. We have
worked hard to have as few requirements such as having to be at a
raid, specs etc.(we don't) as we feel that the game should be about
fun and adult camaraderie. We still feel very strongly that we do not
wish to pressure anyone into this content but wish to provide it for
those that are game. Do you have any advice on how best to move
forward while still providing a pressure-free atmosphere? One other
concern of mine would be creating an atmosphere where casual players
that are uninterested in raids and instances feel like their guild is
moving on. We want to provide both types of players a home while still
serving the relaxed, mature player. Any advice?
Our website is casual-crusaders.net. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Scott, Guildmaster
Thanks for writing, Scott. I'm sorry I cost you a night's sleep! My guild was once in a state similar to yours. We were sick of UBRS and Tribute runs and wanted to see something new. At that time, the only way to do that was to raid. We've never been on the bleeding edge of content, but we've been raiding several nights a week for more than two years now, so I think I can help you.
First, however, I have a concern: In your e-mail you say that the officers are interested in moving the guild in this direction. Does a significant portion of your membership feel the same way? I'm going to assume they are for the sake of this column, but be sure you're not doing this purely because the officers want to. It's a long, treacherous journey you're embarking on. You will need the support of the majority of your guild to make this work. As for those who are not interested, like it or not, the guild will be "moving on" to a certain extent, and there's little you can do except to make sure those players' needs are also being met, whatever they may be. And of course, don't treat them like second-class citizens just because they aren't raiders.
Now, if your guild really hasn't run instances much, then 5-player dungeons are the place to get started. At 70 you could start with some of the mid-60 instances such as Old Hillsbrad, Mana-Tombs, or Auchenai Crypts to build confidence, and then work your way up to Steam Vaults, Shattered Halls, Shadow Labyrinth, Black Morass, and the three wings of Tempest Keep. These places will help you coordinate pulls and crowd control, help your tanks learn how to keep aggro and your DPS'ers from pulling it, and let your healers get a feel for managing mana during boss fights. They will also improve a players ability to adjust when something goes wrong.
These dungeons are very forgiving of mistakes. That doesn't mean you should overlook said mistakes, however. If something goes wrong, the leader of the party should ask questions about why something happened so everyone can learn from the error and avoid repeating it.
With 70 members, you should have no trouble at getting two or three 5-player dungeons going at the same time, as long as you plan for it properly. I would suggest using your guild's forums or an add-on such as Guild Event Manager to figure out which nights and times work best for the people who are interested in this content. Adult players usually prefer not to commit to WoW-related activities on Friday and Saturday nights, and most parents can't sit down in front of the computer for long blocks of time until later in the evening. But if you narrow it down to two nights per week for two hours (three for raids), you'll be able to get started. Designate this time for instance runs. Choose two or three different dungeons, and have people sign up for the one they want to run. If they fail to show up on time without notice and without a good explanation, make sure they know you expect to be notified whenever possible if that person will be unable to follow through with his or her commitment. It's not asking for anything other than common courtesy.
Learning your class role in a group, learning from mistakes, and personal accountability: These are all frames of mind that will serve you well in the next phase, when you take on raiding proper.
But let's pause here. After a few weeks, you're going to start to notice a few things about your players. Some players will emerge as true assets: They arrive on time, bring plenty of consumables, and know the strategies the group needs to win. Others will stand out in a negative way: They show up late, don't have what they need (reagents, drinks, etc.), and go into the runs clueless about what they will face.
And this, I'm afraid, is where the dream of experiencing group content in a "relaxed, friendly atmosphere" breaks down. To move on to the next phase, you're going to have to make some tough choices.
Karazhan will be your next destination. It has a nasty reputation as the make-or-break raid for guilds in The Burning Crusade, and for you it will be no different. First you'll have to get your players attuned. If you've been running the 5-player dungeons, you shouldn't have much trouble collecting the key fragments. Then you will have to decide who to bring to that first run, and that's where things get a bit sticky. Do you bring 10 people who are always dependable, or do you just bring the first 10 who sign up and hope for the best? You face unpleasant consequences either way.
If you just bring whoever signs up, you could be in for a rough night of frequent wipes. A few nights of that might change your mind about the policy. It's especially going to frustrate your more effective players. They're going to be a little less friendly after the third night of wiping on Moroes. If there's one thing adults hate, it's when other people waste their time. Tempers may flare. The prepared players may blame the unprepared for the raid's shortcomings. The unprepared will justify their lack of effort as an extension of the guild's casual nature. It can get ugly.
Now that your best players have had a taste of raiding, they might begin to weigh their options and decide that they'd be better off in a guild that takes raiding more seriously. Once one person makes this decision, you're in trouble, because now everyone in the same category is thinking about doing the same thing. The players who leave may even try to recruit other members away from you. You will bleed players until you're left with the people who caused the problem in the first place. And eventually you'll either have to try to recruit the fill the void -- which could be tough at this point -- or give up on raiding.
On the other hand, if you start getting picky about who goes and who doesn't, you're going to get a lot of complaints from the people who are left behind. The hand-picked people on these runs will insist on the standards they've held themselves to. They'll want everyone to be 100% prepared for every run. Certain mods like BigWigs, Omen, and Natur EnemyCastBar will become mandatory. Over and over again, you'll hear from the people who either can't go or won't go the same refrain, "The guild has changed."
Quite a grim picture I've painted here, haven't I? I don't mean to discourage you. Personally, raiding has definitely been a rewarding experience. For me, nothing builds that kind of camaraderie better than working as a team to slay some giant monster that's been giving you hell for hours (or weeks) on end.
But I do speak from experience about the consequences and they are very real. My guild started out taking the first path and, while we were successful to a certain extent, it nearly destroyed us. Now we have chosen the latter option. In my opinion, it's the way to go, even though it means your raiding is no longer pressure-free.
You can still be somewhat casual about it. We don't enforce attendance minimums. We don't make people spec a certain way. But we do expect people to be prepared: to spend gold to enchant their gear properly, bring consumables, install the proper add-ons, know the strategies, and so on. And there's a certain amount of pressure in that. We chose to see it as being professional -- as not wasting the other players' time.
Yes, you'll always face complaints and unhappiness on this road. The trick is to mold those people who aren't living up to expectations into better players so they can contribute to a raid instead of watching from the sidelines (or just coming along for the ride).
In the long run, not being quite casual enough but succeeding at group content is better for most guilds than being too casual and failing. It will make recruiting easier, bring your members together in new ways, and lead to a lot of fun, memorable moments. I wish you luck!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters!
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Ken Lydell Nov 19th 2007 11:20AM
Excellent post!
ThorinII Nov 19th 2007 11:26AM
"make sure those players' needs are also being met, whatever they may be. And of course, don't treat them like second-class citizens just because they aren't raiders"
The entire article is riddle with excellent advise. I (from personal experience) have to say this may be the most important thing to keep in mind. A well rounded guild with lvling and raiding in mind will grow and succeed with a much longer shelf life than one with only lvling or raiding as their reason to exsist. That isn't to say one or the other can't be the primary focus, but be sure not to completely neglect either.
Deldinor Nov 19th 2007 11:30AM
Scott is 100% correct in his depiction of how this situation will play out. I have been through it multiple times and it's always the same. Thus, many of us in our old semi-casual raiding alliance broke off from our respective guilds and formed a new raiding guild.
I think you can still enjoy your raiding with your friends if you simply:
1) Set a start and end time to the raid
2) Ask everyone to show up on time
3) Ask everyone to bring some consumables
There's little more beyond those things that make up the difference between a "hardcore" raiding guild and a "casual" one.
arb Nov 19th 2007 11:34AM
I'm interested in a decent source of information on the strategies for handling key encounters in instances - initially 5-man Outland instances. I'm not an experienced tank, having solo'd/two-manned my way to 70 and focused on PvP, but pride myself on understanding the mechanics of the game and researching well.
Can anyone recommend a good source of such information?
Emeraldrogue Nov 19th 2007 11:47AM
Everything you've written here is utterly true, and my guild has gone through it just recently. We started Kara a couple months ago on a very casual basis and downed Nightbane for the first time last night, clearing the place at last.
We wanted to (and still want to) preserve our casual, friendly atmosphere, but it has taken some uncomfortable adjustments and some outright arguments to square that with the need for discipline and focus that raid fights require.
You will have to learn how to tell pleasant, well-meaning people that they can't raid past a certain point if they don't start paying attention to their gear, spec, and rotations.
You will have to deal with people being downright contrary and unreasonable. Some will fail to respond to requests for availability schedules, and they will fail to sign up, and then they'll still get pissed when they're not invited to raids. Some will moan about the loss of the 'casual and friendly' atmosphere, then go join a harder-core raiding guild anyway. Most hurtful of all, some of the people that you run with, train, and gear up (sometimes for weeks or months) will bail on you as soon as bigger, faster loot beckons elsewhere.
You will also have to deal, as your core of veterans gets better and better geared, with the increased expectations of your up-and-comers. The newbs will see the veterans getting farther and farther each week, and knocking back five-mans and heroics as though they were nothing... and they will be pissed and confused when they charge in and get slaughtered by the same content. Because they weren't necessarily around for the learning process... the time when the guild's best and brightest wiped on Shadow Labs fifteen times a day... they will lack context for the success they are seeing.
There are a hundred new obstacles to happiness that raiding can bring... but the bright side is that you'll also get to see which members of your guild can step up, assume positions of greater leadership, assist others, and drastically improve themselves.
Chris Nov 19th 2007 11:49AM
Our guild likes to raid when we can. It doesn't matter if you can't make it; it doesn't matter what your class/spec is - we progress slowly, but we play for fun. I wouldn't trade this style of play for anything.
alrdye Nov 19th 2007 12:13PM
This article is spot on. I was the GM of a good sized guild shortly after wow was released. I also inherited it from the previous GM who was seeking greener raiding pastures. We had a good number of people who wanted to start getting into MC but we didn't have the number of 60's needed so we merged with another guild in a similar position. We formed a solid guild that is still active to this day.
But, those that resisted the idea of merging, who wanted to keep it a smaller guild with the friends we'd leveled up with, left. Some left right at the time of the merger and some soon after. We (the officers) knew it was coming but we made the decision because it was either merge, or loose the majority of our 60's to other raiding guilds and we wanted to keep our friends together as much as possible. Personally, I'm glad we went the direction we did. Looking back now, those early days in MC and then BWL were some of my best memories in WoW.
Dan Nov 19th 2007 12:51PM
Fantastic post. Best I've seen on the topic and on wowinsider in general. It's like you were in our guild speaking from our experiences.
Hexadecimal Nov 19th 2007 12:19PM
Good article, though I would like to add one more path you can take that seems to have worked for our guild. We were struggling in kara at one point with repeated moroes wipes and then it was decided we'd look at pvp to hone our reflexes (and get welfare epics at the same time). S1/S2 gear (item lvl 123/136) > Kara (item lvl 115) so gear-wise that tends to help in PvE progression. Added to that the improved reflexes and you have yourself a closer knit guild.
The result?
Our members that struggled with poor performance showed improvement, so much so we went back into kara and blazed through most of the instance downing bosses on first attempts!
bennet Nov 19th 2007 12:22PM
@4: I use Wowhead (go to the Zones section) for reading up on instance bosses. There's also something to be said for being surprised and having to figure out strategy on the fly - but that means being prepared to wipe while you're figuring, and if your time is limited I can see wanting to leverage the experience of those who have gone before...
Zumwalah Nov 19th 2007 12:35PM
ARB - http://www.wowwiki.com is your friend! has information on everything
as for class help always check http://www.eilitistjerks.com
Andrew Nov 19th 2007 1:24PM
As many have stated, figuring out what your GUILD wants is paramount. I've run a casual raiding guild for over a year now. Again, like others have said, we are not a fast progressing guild, we're a guild that moves into content as we can. We don't use DKP and we don't have a mandatory attendance level. We raid three times a week at most and only for four hours a night (unless the raid wishes to continue).
This formula has worked very well for us. However, in order to achieve some success (Karazhan on farm, working on 25-man content) we did establish guild raiding guidelines.
1. Do research on Karazhan and establish minimum stat requirements for raiders. There are many informative guides out there and the requirements are very easy to achieve by simply running normal 5-man content. Encourage class leaders to compile gear guides of non-raid, non-heroic loot so guild members know where to go and what to get. This benefits the guild, because in a 10-man, every has to pull their weight.
2. Research numerous specs appropriate for raiding. Sure no one likes to force people to spec a certain way, but if a person wants to raid, they should be raid spec'd. If they can't afford to switch between a PvP and a raid spec, they make a choice. No one forces them to raid, but they should be ready to contribute. There are very few specs that are absolutely terribly for Karazhan (in addition, just because someone is, let's say, prot spec'd, doesn't mean they chose their talents wisely... members should be prepared to tweak specs).
3. Make a transparent loot system. If it is a council, explain to your guild how it will work. If it is /roll with class priority, explain it. If it is DKP, make sure everyone knows rules and totals. We use a /roll with class priority. We're also very in tune with our guild members needs, so if T4 drops for a mage and one is a tailor and one isn't, the non-tailor is usually given priority.
4. Be a research fiend. As a guild leader (or raid leader) read up on all boss strategies. I create a spreadsheet of trash mob stats so I know what to do when we're there. I post very simple strategies on the Web site. Everyone reads them and knows the encounters (roughly).
----
Most people think casual raiding means no rules. I disagree. If people are going to do something as organized as raiding, there must be rules. These don't have to be hardcore, but it can be simple: come prepared (consumables, reagents), come on time and if you sign up, be there.
We don't force anyone of our members to actually raid, but when we recruit, we expect those people to make a raid at least one out of every six. If I recruit someone who NEVER gets into a raid, I cut em. Why? Well, because that was the entire point of bringing them into the guild. If you don't require raiding attendance, prepare to recruit well over the number needed to do a raid.
Lastly, when I set Karazhan rosters, it isn't first come, first served. Everyone signs up and I put groups together based off what is the best for the given situation. As you progress, you can divide Kara up into Attumen-Curator and Aran-Prince. Put the lower geared people in the first end, the better geared toward the latter end and keep rotating as people get geared.
If you get enough people, run two groups!
Good luck with the guild!
Zumwalah Nov 19th 2007 12:37PM
WTB ability to edit posts, http://www.elitistjerks.com
Vincent Avatar Nov 19th 2007 12:39PM
My guild (Casual, RP) just ran Karazhan for the second time last night. We have thus-far managed to keep a balance between casual chit-chat and raiding success (Attumen, Moroes, and Romeo and Juliet are dead! Fear our Mighty RP Powah). It helps that everyone in the guild is really friendly and willing to die over and over again just for the sake of having fun.
Really, that's the important part, right? Never forget that you're there to have fun. That's more important than maintaining your "Casual" atmosphere, and honestly people won't care what you're doing if you make it fun for everyone involved.
ErsatzPotato Nov 19th 2007 12:46PM
Wowhead, as suggested. Wowwiki too, if you follow the links from instance to specific bosses. The wiki is more likely to have outdated information but may have better maps. Searching the video sites for clips of fights works too.
It's generally better to get a feel for the fight rather than try to follow very specific tactics because the tricks that make them work often get changed by patches. If you can, go first as DPS to see the fights. If you've never tanked a place, be honest. The group will be a lot more forgiving if it goes poorly.
For raid bosses, go to http://www.bosskillers.com/
amasen Nov 19th 2007 1:02PM
I agree with everything said.
You can keep a guild friendly and relaxed, but if you come to play... come to play... Football players don't go out on the field without their pads and helmets, because if they do, they will get hurt. The same applies to raiding. The encounters are much more difficult, so you need to be prepared.
One of the biggest things I've found with a starting up raid guild is keeping the members interested and feeling like they are progressing. Doing that in Vanilla wow was harder, but today that is very easy. With heroics/badges/rep/pvp/arena there is plenty of content for everyone... If the guild had a rough night of raiding, make the next day fun stuff they are good at. Wipe all night in kara and get no-where... fine the next day, do some arena's and pvp or heroics... then go back to kara rested and ready to go...
Anyways, casual raiding is the way to go, but make sure your members don't feel like raiding is the only thing they have because if they aren't successful often enough then they will become unhappy.
Siedre Nov 19th 2007 1:24PM
Agreed! Excellent post!
Dave Nov 19th 2007 1:15PM
Here's where most guilds I think get it wrong when they try the advice given:
They start to get cocky and "recruit" thinking that by acting like a big awesome progression guild, they'll be visited by the progression fairy and be turned into a big awesome top guild on the server. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Acting like an aweseome guild just makes you bleed people faster. Take in -everyone-. Yes, everyone. If there's an unguilded hunter in Org, ask him if he'd like to join your guild. Anyone and everyone is a potential raider. Most guilds screw up by limiting their options, not giving people chances and assuming they're somehow going to attract the best quality raiders rather than just letting everyone make an effort and keep along the people who make a good show of it.
If you're expecting to clear Kara every week with a casual effort, I think you need at least 60 L70's in your guild. Why? Class balance matters. Taking any 10 people just ain't gonna work. Keep enough warm bodies in your guild though, and you've got an above-average chance of having the right composition to make it all happen on any given night. I also think the worst possible thing you can do is to narrow your days down to 2 or 3 days a week. Let it be known that you'll do a run every night of the week if you can get enough people together who will commit to being there and doing it. Yes, this might mean that as the guild leader and/or officer you might not go on all of your guild's raids, but that's not what it's about, is it?
On top of everything, you need to have a mantra of "don't waste other people's time". This includes:
not showing up for a raid you said you were going to show up for
not knowing the boss fights in advance. (even zul'aman strats are already out on the web and very straightforward, sunwell plateau will be on the web BEFORE IT HITS LIVE because people do this sorta thing). There's absolutely no excuse for needing the fights to be explained to you. At all. There's no honor in "figuring it out yourself" or anything at all that would give you an excuse to not be prepared before you show up.
going AFK on a regular basis. Yes, you may have a kid/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife/cat that needs attention, but if you're constantly going afk, nobody wants you around. Everyone else is putting in the time and dedication for however small the window of time is to play, you should too.
The good news, is the only people who have to deal with all this, are the officers. Use your officer notes. If necessary get a guild forum and keep notes in a private forum on everyone who shows up so you know what to expect from people. You do have to be at least a little serious about it, or you just won't get anywhere. Start taking along the people who perform consistently and leaving those who aren't as good out of things until you can pick up the slack for people. If the slackers are also the kinds who don't know how the boss fights go, just be REALLY HONEST with them, and tell them their lack of mental preparation is holding everyone else back and you'd rather them find a new guild if that's their dedication.
So, really I think the answer is "no" to the original question, but with some modifications on your philosophy of how you wanna get things done you can do it quite well. You just have to work on it and get everyone on the same page.
It may take some pressure to GET to the point of no pressure, but you can get there.
rick gregory Nov 19th 2007 1:25PM
Excellent article. I'd add a couple of things:
1) Communicate! Not just from officers to guild but all around. If people are feeling left out because they don't raid they need to be able to say that on the forums AND be heard. Likewise any issue... openness is KEY.
2) If you're casual your members probably aren't going to spend hours on EJ and other places. Have you class leaders distill down best practices and post them on your guild site forums. Include things like starting Kara gear, recommended enchants and gems, and recommended specs. That gives everyone a place to check so that if they want to improve their gear/enchants/spec they have a starting point.
3) If people don't need the gold, have them send greens to the guild bank for DEing.. Same with shards from 5 mans and Kara. Then make those available for enchants etc.
4) Have farming nights and farm up a bunch of stuff that you can use. Kill Bog lords and farm them. Get potion mats and have alchemists ake a bunch of pots.
5) Set Expectations. Raid no more than 2-3 nights a week and have END times as well as start. Getting through Curator on night one in Kara... etc. If you set a reasonable goal and hit it, it feels good. Once a kara raid I was running needed to tighten up... we were taking too long messing around. So I challeged them... A boss per hour (we were clearing to Prince at the time). No AFKs (aside from emergencies obviously) except between bosses but then we ALL took a few mins to AFK for whatever. We cleared through Shade in 3.5 hours... Everyone felt great - but it wasn't because we did anything new... it was just that we moved through efficiently and had fun at the same time.
brister417 Nov 19th 2007 2:30PM
The biggest part of all of this would have to be communication. Communication between you(GM), Officers as well as everyone else that bears the name of your guild. Too many times I have seen, as well as been a part of, GM's and officers sitting in /o chat trying to decide "For the betterment of the guild" on which direction they should go. If it is truly for the betterment of the guild then you should talk about it WITH the entire guild. Communication is a big part of why raiding guilds, being hardcore or just casual, have fallen apart. You guild is you family when you play. You have many friends that you have come to know over time. Don't leave the little people out!!