The Light and How to Swing It: Command vs. Blood

For a long time, there was no confusion as to what Seal should be used if you were a Retribution spec Paladin using a two-handed weapon. You would cast Seal of Command, and hope that each time you swung your mighty weapon that it would proc, dealing heavy Holy damage to your target. As a passive ability that only activated (on average) 7 times a minute, there wasn't much you could do other than auto-swing and cross your fingers (other abilities not withstanding).
Ah, times they are a changin'. Burning Crusade made the Paladin class available to the Horde and all paladins got a new (but not the same) Seal: Alliance got Seal of Vengeance, and the Horde got Seal of Blood. I'm still not sold on SoV. There are times when it comes in handy, but for Retribution paladins it didn't replace the old standby, Seal of Command. Seal of Blood, on the other hand, can be looked at not just as an alternative to SoC, but a replacement. The question is... is SoB better than SoC? The answer isn't exactly cut and dry, so join me as I examine each Seal, and try and draw some conclusions.
Ah, times they are a changin'. Burning Crusade made the Paladin class available to the Horde and all paladins got a new (but not the same) Seal: Alliance got Seal of Vengeance, and the Horde got Seal of Blood. I'm still not sold on SoV. There are times when it comes in handy, but for Retribution paladins it didn't replace the old standby, Seal of Command. Seal of Blood, on the other hand, can be looked at not just as an alternative to SoC, but a replacement. The question is... is SoB better than SoC? The answer isn't exactly cut and dry, so join me as I examine each Seal, and try and draw some conclusions.
I'm going to borrow a little of the math Exavier did in this thread, but I'll try to keep things easy to understand. Let's first start by examining Seal of Command:
Seal of Command
Gives the Paladin a chance to deal additional Holy damage equal to 70% of normal weapon damage. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 228 to 252 Holy damage, 456 to 504 if the target is stunned or incapacitated.
Now let's put SoC on a well-geared Retribution spec Paladin with the following stats:
800-1000 damage (paper doll slot)
Weapon Speed: 3.6
350 spelldamage
30% crit
Seal of Command damage range: 560-700 (average 630)
Ah, but SoC has a 29% spell coefficient (meaning 29% of your spelldamage is applied to any SoC proc). Plugging that in, we get: 29% of 350 = ~102
Seal of Command damage range: 662-802 (average 732)
So on average, with these stats, we can expect SoC to deal 732 damage on each proc. We also know that the proc rate on SoC is 7 per minute. Let's plot this out over the course of a minute to see how much damage we do with SoC.
SoC Damage Formula: (Average Proc) * (Procs per minute)
(732) * (7) = 5,124
SoC Critical Damage Formula: 2 * ( (SoC Damage) * (Crit Chance / 100) ) = SoC Critical Damage
2 * ( (5,124) * (.3) ) = 3,074
SoC Damage Total Formula: ( SoC Damage - (SoC Damage * Crit Chance) + SoC Crit Damage ) = Total SoC Damage
( 5,124 - (1,537) + 3,074 ) = 6,671
Keep in mind that this doesn't take into account any other skills, talents, resists, mitigation, etc, so this should only be used for comparison purposes. Now let's take a look at Seal of Blood, using the same stats for our Paladin.
Seal of Blood
All melee attacks deal additional Holy damage equal to 35% of normal weapon damage, but the Paladin loses health equal to 10% of the total damage inflicted. Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy, instantly causing 295 to 325 Holy damage at the cost of health equal to 33% of the damage caused.
Seal of Blood damage range: 280-350 (average 315).
From this we can see that although each SoB proc hits for less than an SoC proc (315 vs. 732), SoB procs on every swing, not just 7 times a minute. Let's plot out the damage done over a minute as before, but using SoB this time.
SoB Damage Formula: ( Average Damage * (Total Seconds / Weapon Speed) ) = SoB Damage
( 315 * (60/3.6) ) = 5,250
SoB Critical Damage Formula: 2 * ( (SoB Damage) * (Crit Chance / 100) ) = SoB Critical Damage
2 * ( (5,250) * (.3) ) = 3,150
SoB Damage Total Formula: ( SoB Damage - (SoB Damage * Crit Chance) + SoB Crit Damage ) = Total SoB Damage
( 5,250 - (1,575) + 3,150 ) = 6,825
So where are we at? Seal of Command does 6,671 damage over a minute, compared with Seal of Blood's 6,825. Not much of a difference, eh? Let's see what happens if we were to Judge each Seal when it was up (and to be fair, the target will not be stunned or incapacitated) in the same 1 minute period. Both Judgments also have a 43% spell coefficient, so we will take our Paladin's spelldamage into account.
JoC Damage Range: (228-252) + (.43(350)) = 379-403 (391 Average)
JoB Damage Range: (295-325) + (.43(350)) = 446-476 (461 Average)
Judgment Formula : (Average) * (Total Seconds / Cooldown) = Damage
JoC: (391) * (60 / 8) = 2,933
JoB: (461) * (60 / 8) = 3,458
Judgment Critical Formula: (Damage * Crit Chance) = Critical Damage
JoC: (2,933 * .3) = 880
JoB: (3,458 * .3) = 1037
Judgment Total Damage Formula (Damage + Critical Damage = Total Damage)
JoC: 2,933 + 880 = 3,813
JoB: 3,458 + 1037 = 4,495
Now let's add the damage from the Seals and their respective Judgements together and see what we come up with:
Command: 6,671 + 3,813 = 10,484
Blood: 6,825 + 4,495 = 11,320
Seal of Blood wins by a margin of 836 damage, which works out to be around 7% more damage.
Conclusions
So what can we take from this? Is Seal of Blood the winner? Well, most of the time, yes. Seal of Command scales with your spelldamage, so past a certain point Command starts to come out ahead. However, Seal of Blood tends to scale better with gear that buffs your strength and crit rating, two stats that Retribution paladins need in spades to do well. Blood also costs less mana to use, but remember -- it deals damage to you with each hit or Judgment.
Certain combinations of high level gear, talents and spells will give the lead back to Command. For example, the 4 piece Justicar Battlegear bonus increases SoC's damage by 10%, and Judgment of the Crusader on the target effectively grants you additional spelldamage.
Which Seal you should use depends on the situation: since SoB procs every swing, the damage is far more reliable, but it doesn't hit as hard as SoC, and it deals some damage back to you. In general terms, I'd say that SoC is better for PvP and SoB has the edge in PvE, but in reality both seals deal a comparable amount of damage.
Filed under: Paladin, (Paladin) The Light and How to Swing It






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Elzam Nov 28th 2007 12:13AM
Good write up, but there are several factors that have not been actually addressed in this that are some of the major reasons why Seal of Blood is touted as being super in many ways.
1) Seal of Blood's lessened reliance on Spelldmg allows Belf Paladins to concentrate on warrior-like gear in order to maximize damage. Your average Blood Elf in PvE will be using Seal of Blood and as little spell damage as he can manage to wear if he's thinking wisely. In PvP all's fair and we all know that SoComm is still king for burst DPS.
2) Seal of Blood is cheaper mana-wise.
3) Seal of Blood is (more) controllable DPS.
4) Haste. This is one of the largest reasons, in my opinion, that for PvE Seal of Blood is entirely unfair for only one side to possess (I am Horde, btw). Seal of Blood is a constant proc, it is not a % proc. It is not a ppm (like SoComm). Therefore, with the massive amount of +haste gear available from Hyjal and beyond, any Belf Paladin is increasing their DPS by lightyears by stacking Haste. While Haste would benefit the Alliance Paladin's white damage (which DOES constitute ~50% of their DPS) to increase, it does not increase the PPM rate of Seal of Command.
There are a few more issues between the two seals to explore, such as the benefit of SoB/JoB's recoil (yes, benefit) in raid situations due to Spiritual Attunement and HoTs and that Seal of Blood scales with a Belf Paladin's raw AP quite effectively, but the exact scaling of Seal of Blood is still a little iffy as far as my theorycraft goes.
Elzam
Zechleton Nov 28th 2007 12:43AM
"and to be fair, the target will not be stunned or incapacitated)"
Well, how often will a retridin actually use SoC without repentance or hammer? Unless it's PvE, in which case lol@retridins. Not that it will matter for me since my Paladin is a dwarf anyway.
Sylythn Nov 28th 2007 12:48AM
And here's a really good tip - do NOT use Seal of Blood on Prince Malchezar...
...why? The feedback damage will kill you when you're enfeebled if you hit him even once. Mentioned that to my raid today, then managed to kill myself that way out of habit.
Hokuto Nov 28th 2007 6:53AM
Well, no melee is supposed to be near him after an enfeeble anyway.
Sylythn Nov 28th 2007 5:51PM
Then I really hope you're quick on that escape key before you turn and run - because after you've been enfeebled, there's a very high chance you'll get in an autoattack swing, go to hit one more judgement, or fire off one last crusader strike before getting the hell out of there. Very high probability of an oops moment.
Ryuhou Nov 28th 2007 1:43AM
The main question is, will blizzard fix SoC when they're finnaly done with the Str and AP conversion of spell dmg? Only time will tell..
Tony Vila Nov 28th 2007 3:28AM
What Elzam said. Being able to min-max for strength and out of spell damage, the benefit from haste, and non-bursty damage aggro wise, all make SoB much better for PvE. Also:
1) more hits = more crits = more vengeance.
2) for long fights, a retadin risks going OOM pretty quickly, and many retadins lately have dropped all the Ret mana and judgements related talents, and decided to judge how well it works to almost never judge. Turns out you spend 60% less mana, and only do about 15% less DPS. So if you go that route, and only count a judgement once every 30 seconds, SoB really pulls ahead.
It's the ultimate irony really. Most retadins are alliance. Those who rolled a paladin on Horde generally did it for superior healing and support. Often these new belfadins mocked retadins as hopelessly lost old timers. And now we are given the seal that makes ret (slightly) more viable, and not the alliance.
Also, I think you underestimate SoV for tankadins, but it's not like tankadins suffer from aggro problems anyway, so no one really cares.
Eclipsaa Nov 28th 2007 3:30AM
Personally I would like to see this but made out ofr a shockadine that wants to play with two handed swords >_> *grumbles at hating shields* but i love to heal :P oh well......
Just i have read a few things saying that SOC dosent use Spell damage and well, is that the same for SOB? and if so dose either do with the actly hit or Just the Judge?
Its all so confusing, personally i tried all of them one time or another just finding a enemy and hiting on it seeing ow much damage i could do and really... I didnt see any damage different, anything worth cheering over atleast....
but then my char is all strange and not made for two handed swords, damn blizzard for not making a two handed sword that was made for a shockadine!
Medros Nov 28th 2007 4:30AM
I always thought SoB and SoV were the same thing, simply a different name. Perhaps this explains the popularity of ret to the Horde Paladins?
Dipstick Nov 28th 2007 5:21AM
Agreed with No.1 - everyone is using haste now to boost their DPS beyond the limits of normal stats, but for Paladins with SoComm it's a glass ceiling.
Two things need to be done to the seals, IMO.
1) Increase the proc rate on SoV (or make its judgement refresh duration)
2) Make SoB and SoV trainable for both factions, albeit with different names.
springz Nov 28th 2007 5:39AM
On a sidenote in regards to SoV. It can be a nice seal if it were stable enough to keep the 5x stack effect on your target. As a holy pally wielding 1H+shield I find it quite effective, but even in my case i sometimes find that I don't proc in time to refresh the 5x stack which means I lose my steady dps on a target. I cannot imagine the anguish of being a retridin who usually use a powerful yet slow 2H weapon. I have not tried this yet, but since I already find it annoying when using a weapon that has a speed of 2.10, I do not even want to try out a weapon that has a speed of 3.50 or more.
Also I do not know if there's a way to increase the proc rating by some kind of stat besides hit rating and and the newly added weapon expertise stat.
Most other paladins I have asked about this, agree that it is not a stable and efficient enough seal to use on a daily basis. For myself, the only place to effectively use SoV is when I am solo'ing mobs with a lot of health but who do relatively little damage. The walking trees on Skettis for example. In some cases I have been in trouble when I did not proc enough to continuesly keep the 5x debuff on the mob during the fight.
Cala Nov 28th 2007 8:22AM
Yeah, SoV should really be used with a very fast 1h weapon, not a big, slow 2h. Best results for SoV come off of a sub 2.0 weapon swing. 1.6-1.8 is the ideal range that I've found for keeping it up, but 1.8 is starting to get on the slow side of things.
EirieYuki Nov 28th 2007 8:56AM
It sounds to me as SoB is not really that cheap in PvP even if they do better dps with it than SoC it would hurt them in the longer run. More swings means more damage equals more damage returned to the paladin. So his dps might be good, but when fighting another lets say a SoC pally, the dps probably equals out in terms of the SoB is causing damage to him and the SoC isn't causing damage to the other paladin. So, I don't know, i guess it has a more overall affect in PvE than PvP ^_^. But who knows, its all opinions.
micah Nov 28th 2007 9:15AM
Two separate thoughts:
1. You really should count at least one of the judgments of SoComm as if it were a stunned target. No Retribution Paladin running Seal of Command would DPS for a full minute and not stun-judge at least once. With Repentance you have two. I mean if you wanted the most accurate comparison possible. I still think SoB will come out on top but the margin won't be as large.
2. I had to level my two-handed sword skill up from 300 to 350 yesterday because I got the S1 Gladiator sword so I went to the Dark Portal to grind on those mobs that can't die. Just for fun I ran SoV and I kid you not. It proc'd on every swing for about 5 minutes straight. Anybody know if they buffed the proc rate when they fixed the "bonus" dmg when it procs on a full stack? (fyi my weapon speed is 3.6)
Fireflash38 Nov 28th 2007 9:50AM
The reason he did not include stuns/incapacitates is because bosses are immune to such things. It appears that he is discussing raid dps, and not soloing/5-mans.
athanyel Nov 28th 2007 9:40AM
#13, the reason you always got SoV to land is pretty straightforward. SoV is set to 20ppm which maths out to "always land with a 3.0 or slower weapon." Since your two-hander is slower than that, you should land SoV every time you swing (barring resists and the like).
To the author: you hit the math on the head but I think there's more to this than the numbers. SoB's reflect is part of why it pulls ahead for raiding. A druid or priest can fully mitigate SoB's damage to the paladin. You can also group a good shadow priest with your ret paladin to make for a sick combination.
The other big smack in the face to SoCm is the PPM. At 7 PPM, you need an 8.6 speed weapon to guarantee a hit. Not having that guarantee of damage is pretty ugly when you talk about raiding.
athanyel Nov 28th 2007 9:42AM
Oh, one other bit about SoCm and stuns: good luck finding a boss that you can stun.
Deusmortis Nov 28th 2007 9:49AM
Couple of issues with this. First, 350 spell damage is a fairly large number, more than most paladins of any faction are likely to possess. Secondly, even if the Ally had 350 SD, the Horde would instead have an equal amount of itemization dedicated to AP or Crit, raising overall damage.
Third, unless I am greatly mistaken, SoC gains 20% of your spell damage, and 29% of bonus holy damage, not 29% of all spell damage.
Since we're now starting to move away from spell damage, Blood's margin widens. Someone already mentioned the fact that SoB scales perfectly with haste, whereas SoC gains no benefit at all.
Someone mentioned the benefit of the recoil, but I'll give a little more info for those who don't know: Spiritual Attunement allows paladins to gain back a percentage of incoming heals as mana. The small amount of feedback damage from SoB means that the BE paladin will receive constant light heals, granting him what is, in effect, free mana per 5. This allows them to gear even further away from traditional paladin gear, which further boosts SoB... and the snowball effect takes hold.
Chris Jahosky Nov 28th 2007 3:42PM
@ 17 - If you roll over your spelldamage stat in the character window, you see that anything that increases spelldamage increases it for all schools of magic unless indicated otherwise (e.g. if an item says "increases Fire damage by x"). The only purely holy damage buff that I know of comes from JotC, which I don't take into account in the math.
Starbuk Nov 28th 2007 7:23PM
There are a few items that exclusively increase Holy Spell damage, but 2 of them are lower level, leaving only the cape from Kara
http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=cr=55;crs=1;crv=0