"Welfare epics"
by John Himes 
Nov 29th 2007 at 11:45PM
To the best of my recollection, one of the WoW developers first coined the terminology "welfare epics" at last August's Blizzcon. I've had difficulty finding the original source, but as I recall, the context of the talk had to do with the goal of the WoW designers to make all players put forth some degree of effort in obtaining quality gear. The specific gear in question was that purchased with arena points.New arena loot was released to the clamoring masses a couple of days ago, and some of the items have arena rating requirements on them, thus setting in motion the designers' plan to avoid a proliferation of welfare epics. As per usual with changes of this magnitude, the official forums are rife with controversial topics. This time around, its the PvE players arguing with PvP players regarding the quality and accessibility of arena loot. Some of this debate spilled over into the comments on one of my own recent posts, piquing my interest in the issue even further.
Today, in a rare occurrence on the WoW forums, a player composed a thoughtful and non-inflammatory thread in order to discuss the topic. While there are some interjections by trolls, the thread is primarily filled with level-headed debate and interesting suggestions as to how the PvE/PvP disparity can be understood and fixed (if such a fix is even necessary). Although I would disagree with the original poster's (Ultros) definition of "welfare epic", kudos to him for sparking one of the better forum posts I've read in a long time. Click on the "Read" link below to check it out yourself.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Shinwei Nov 30th 2007 12:15AM
I'm sorry but I see no "link below" to click on anywhere. Am I missing something?
RogueJedi86 Nov 30th 2007 12:23AM
It's there, click the Read button to the bottom left of the post.
Milktub Nov 30th 2007 12:20AM
My case:
My main, a rogue, recently wrapped up a two week Scryer rep grind to get the rep reward dagger. It's pretty nice.
To get a second nice dagger, I have to make a choice ...
A) Run heroics or Karazhan hoping for a dagger to drop ... could take an hour or two, or a lot longer
B) Grind Consortium or CoT rep to exalted ... it boggles me to think how long this could take
C) Spend a couple fun weekends (or just a weekend and some weeknights) in a battleground to get the S1 arena off hand.
Choices A and B involve repair costs. Choice A requires farming for buff foods, elixirs, pots. Choice C involves buying some poisons for pennies and paying very minimal repair costs.
Oddly, I'm bypassing the easy road of PvP epics for an epic I can feel pride in. (Pride from a video game, I know, it's odd.)
Leo Nov 30th 2007 12:35AM
2 words fully represent the cheat that PVE is being dealt here: Hyjal attunement
You need to become attuned via defeating hard as hell guild killing bosses before you're worthy to obtain anything at the tier 6 level at all.
No such accomplishment is required to begin obtaining season 3 welfare epics. The date on the calendar rolls over and then everyone gets them.
TotalBiscuit Nov 30th 2007 12:42AM
The problem is not simply that PvP epics are too powerful, it's that they're too useful in PvE. Raiders are not interested in PvP, that's why we raid. We may PvP casually, but we do so for a giggle with guildies, and don't expect to do too well at it. We also don't expect our raid epics to give us much of an edge if any in PvP. With the advent of arenas and resilience, we expect our epics to be a disadvantage to us.
So can you explain to me the logic behind weapons that rival anything outside of the very best Black Temple gear, acquirable through a mere few hours total of play with a handful of players? This is not equivelant gear for PvP, some of it is just downright better than raiding epics, and I'm not talking Kara rubbish either, I'm talking the epics which take tens and hundreds of hours of cooperative effort by a large number of people in order to obtain. I'm talking a Season 3 Spellblade that is beaten out only by the low-drop sword from Archimonde, a Season 2 spellblade that beat out anything pre-Black Temple, multiple rogue weapons that did the same, and of course who can forget the Hunter's 'wand' so aptly pointed out by WoW Insider earlier today.
Either you have it one way, or you have it the other. Either you make raiding epics viable in arena PvP to combat welfare epics, or you make welfare epics severely underpowered in PvE. Right now this is clearly not the case, with members of my guild (5/5 Hyjal, 3/9 Black Temple) having picked up these items for raiding, because they're better than what they can get.
A few hours with 5 people vs 100s of hours with 25? The math does itself, and the results are disturbing to say the least.
Shalmaneser Nov 30th 2007 1:06AM
The problem with TotalBiscuit's augment, and indeed most of the discussion of PvP vs. PvE weapons is that it is built on the idea that other people having nice things diminishes your nice things. In other words so what if it only takes a few hours of play to get a weapon that is somewhat the equivalent of a Black Temple weapon? Does that make your Black Temple weapon worse? The most honest poster in the linked forum topic is the one who says that since PvE weapons are so hard to get they should give a big advantage over PvP players. If you view it this way at least you have a legitimate gripe, in other cases you just essentially wishing bad things on other players.
With the increased use of resilience and rating requirements the whole "welfare epic" thing should really be over now. Yes , if you're good at PvP you can get weapons that help in PvE. Just as your Black Temple weapons are pretty good in PvP. In the end one doesn't diminish the other.
Blake Nov 30th 2007 10:13AM
Very well said. I think that if there were a way Blizzard could keep PvP gear in PvP only and vice versa you wouldn't have all this complaining. Right now, I'm wearing the Vindicator's Pendant of Conquest and want to upgrade my Veteran's Silk Cuffs to Vindicators - and I mostly PvE. Those items are just ungodly in terms of PvP. Sure they might have a little useless resilience on them, but the other stats more than make up for it.
But now, while I'm more PvE focused, I have to get in my arena matches every week and grind the battlegrounds occasionally because there are PvP items that are just so much better than PvE items. Find a way to keep them separate and you wouldn't have nearly as much QQ'ing.
rick Nov 30th 2007 1:02AM
The OP in the linked thread missed the obvious point that both 3 and 5 got here... that the problem with Arena is the weapons. The OP on the WoW forums is looking at it from a PvP point of view, ignoring the PvE implications of the weapons.
Pre 2.3 the rogue sword itemization SUCKED. After the Aldor reward, there really isn't anything that's a significant upgrade until the 4th boss in SSC (Yes Kazzak has Hope Ender and Blinkstrike is out there... but they're not significant upgrades from Vindicator's Brand. Neither is Spiteblade).
Or you can get a very good upgrade for 18k honor. The S1 MH sword is just as useful in PvE as in PvP. It's 91dps... a huge upgrade for little effort. If the weapon changed outside of BGs and Arenas, that would be cool.. but it doesn't. It has the same DPS in a PvE environment. Heck, it's not far off Heartless, the MH out of ZA.
It's THIS that people complain about, not so much the armor. I'll have the S2 MH next week. Combined with the OH, I'll have swords that I won't replace short of BT...for playing an hour or so a week on a sucky Arena team. Total time invested? Maybe 15 hours. Costs? none... there's no durability lost. Skill required? None, really. We tried a bit, but none of us CARE about ratings so we just played and if we won 2 or 3 of our ten games... cool. Hell, I've played against teams that walk in and /dance... they still get 250-300 points every week. For doing THAT they can get a BT level OH in 4-6 weeks and a BT level MH in maybe 10-12 weeks. For DANCING... so yes, Arena weapons are welfare epics.
Malachi154 Nov 30th 2007 12:17PM
You say you play an hour a week, and you got an epic weapon in 15 hours? Thats 15 WEEKS it took to get that 'welfare' epic. How much gear can you farm raiding for 15 weeks? There are two paths to epics, joining a raid and grinding high level instances, or PVPing and grinding in battlegrounds or arenas. I suggest all you raiders get used to the fact that your not the only ones with epics and quit QQing that you can't pwn a casual player in BG's anymore...
Ortai Nov 30th 2007 1:14AM
@6 welcome to last season, we are a bit ahead of you now.
More raider tears. Play the game for fun not gear. You will be happier that way. As a pvper, I made the decision to PvP and not raid and my gear was blue and some purples, but I did PvPed for FUN! The non-raid community want a path for advancement and this is it, and you want to take it away from us because our fun is different than yours. Why do you care about what other people's equips are?
What are you all afraid of really? People are still raiding. Arenas, weapons, armor, etc. have not ruined raiding because raiding is still alive and healthy! Where is the negetive effect of the arenas? Show me.
Ortai Nov 30th 2007 1:15AM
Sorry @7
rick Nov 30th 2007 2:07AM
Not afraid of anything. Not crying either. Simply pointing out that the weapons ARE welfare epics. There's really little disputing that. They are stupidly easy to get, are equal to the best weapons in the game and *are just as useful in PvE as PvP*. The armor *isn't* so I'm not talking about that...
And yeah, I noticed S3 is here... in fact, S3 in some ways made the situation worse in that people have to /dance less with the S2 price drop.
I do play for fun... the problem is that this DOES affect enjoyment and fun. Imagine that you like raiding... taking down a boss with 9 or 24 other people is fun for you. Gear is good because, as you gear up, your toon becomes more able to take on challenges that it couldn't with lesser gear. A simple example of this are the enrage timers on various bosses - if your DPS can't reduce the bosses hitpoints to zero before the enrage, the raid fails. Better gear helps you do this, right? As a reward, you sometimes get new weapons that let you put out more damage. They're sought after and, if you're a damage class, big upgrades in weapons are very, very significant to you.
So you kill a boss... Say Solarian in The Eye, a T5 level raid. To get here you've raided Kara, Gruul, SSC... not jsut once, but many times. People have gotten better, they've gotten gear that helps them. You're a dagger rogue... Solarian dies! Heartrazor drops!! It's a great dagger... 96.4 dps, great stats! a HUGE upgrade for you... you'll be able to be even better in raids and might make the difference in some close fights that your raid has struggled with!! Oh... hold it... the thing I got by /dancing for a few hours is better. This kills some of the fun - it's FUN to achieve a goal and get, well, treasure. All that work, all that strategizing and playing... and you're about to turn one of the best daggers in the game into a Void Crystal because you can /dance for 6 hours and get something better. That's a letdown, no matter how much you enjoyed the encounter and it's silly that the 2 weapons are even comparable.
The solution to this is and was obvious... equalize all weapons and armor when you zone into an Arena or a BG. Gear goes out the window, and it's all down to how good you are. Of course, that would make it pointless to BG or Arena for gear... but we're not doing that anyway are we? It's all about the fun.... :)
wowtard Nov 30th 2007 2:24AM
If your idea of 'fun' and 'enjoyment' is being able to wave your e-penis around, you are both playing for the wrong reasons and going against 99% of the playerbase that have never been inside a 25 man raid.
Ugkul Nov 30th 2007 3:01AM
I don't see what's the big deal. By giving players access to better gear, Blizzard is also helping guilds push ahead in the PvE curve. I'm a casual player, and I'm pretty much gotten over gear envy.
Charlie Taylor Nov 30th 2007 3:06AM
@11
I think you're missing the point. We play the game for the same damn reason everyone else does, we enjoy it. I'm sick and tired of people saying that just because I've been playing for over a year and happen to fall in with the right guild to progress to 25 mans that means I have an e-peen to measure.
/sarcasm
What I don't like is that someone can now spend a fraction of the time that I or people I know have to get gear that's better or equivalent. Everyone should have to spend the same time and effort to get the equivalent things: I.E. have no life like me.
/sarcasm off
Seriously though, it can be a tiny bit annoying, but it's not the end of the world. It's not about e-peen, it's about setting goals (yes, I know, they're virtual, but some people set a goal of writing a book; isn't that 'virtual' in a way?) and achieving them. I never brag about being in the 15th (three weeks ago we were 31st) ranked guild on my server, but I do brag that I've known most of my guildmates for over a year now, and some of them I trust as much as real friends. There are memories and inside jokes that no 91.2 DPS weapon can replace. THAT is what I enjoy about playing WoW, not measuring my so called e-peen in front of 'n00bs.'
Now excuse me, I just specced back to swords and need to get 19 more EOTS marks and 3k honor before I can get my OH.
Squirl Nov 30th 2007 3:14AM
Think of Raiding and PvP/Arena as two different paths of advancement. I remember reading the reason Blizz reused Tier models for Arena gear: ~"They are the same quality, but different." Sure, the weapons were amazingly easy to obtain (I have the S2 Shanker and Shiv) even for a raider like myself, but Blizz is moving tword fixing that. They implemented personal rating so that only the heavy PvPers can get to it and ADVANCE in PvP, just like you would ADVANCE in raiding by gearing up through boss drops. To get the required rating you need to put just about as much time and effort into PvP as you would into getting to Hyjal or BT. They left rating req. off the rest of the gear (minus shoulders, thats so the PvPs can let everyone know they're BADASS) so that others can ADVANCE in PvP w/o having imba gear to start with, just like they made the Karazhan/Heroic bosses easy to do in full quest gear, so people can ADVANCE in raiding w/o having uber gear. I hope you read this block of text and took something from it, no more QQ.
Verit Nov 30th 2007 3:38AM
If you think that S3 is just as good as the gear you get from raids you obviously don't know anything about stats. Most of these gear wouldn't last you an entire boss fight in some of the tougher bosses in 25 mans - not enough mana (or some other stat).
Anyhow I wish Blizzard would put an end to the priesthood of these raiding guilds by making some of these fights a tad more forgiving. Case in point on Staghelm Alliance there's like 2 guilds on the whole server who have even set foot in Mt. Hyjal or Black Temple. Great I hear you say - but their applications for joining you have to have Mt. Hyjal and Black Temple attunement - so its a catch 22 of sorts. To get into Mt Hyjal or Black temple you have to be in one of these elite guilds, but they won't let you in unless you've completed attunement.
slayerboy Nov 30th 2007 3:51AM
ok so...let me get this straight.....
Let's say I just dinged 70 (not near that yet, but hypothetically of course) and I'm raiding and doing stuff and my guild finally decides to start running these instances. For the most part, your gear gets better with each different instance that you run, it scales up.
So we have all this scaling up and guilds are running instances multiple times to get people geared for the next instance.
BAMMM!
wait.....you mean the most amazing epics in the game are gotten through PVP and spending honor?
Mr guild raid leader decides that since you can get MUCH better gear via PVP, that instances will be run however many times is needed to progress and once it's complete, on to the next one, regardless if anyone gets any gear drops. No farming until the end game instance.
Now, again, this is just a hypothetical situation, but this could very well start happening. Weren't we just complaining about how low-levels are missing WHOLE instances in pre-TBC content?
I guess my point is, besides the split of casual vs hardcore guilds, now you will have "extreme" guilds that only run an instance "once" until the final boss is down and then moves on. Too bad, so sad, go farm honor to get your epics.
The fact of the matter is that these ARE welfare epics to a point. Blizzard is assuming that when you are PVPing, you are actually in COMBAT! Thus, if you play fairly, it could take some effort to get honor.
/dance
/afk
/me taking a walk while honor builds
C'MON! How is this NOT welfare epics?
Dance for honor for hours vs. wiping Kara 15 times before getting to the final boss and getting a good drop and then running until all guildlies have at least something good from the instance.
Sorry.....this just ruins the game. Yes, I'll continue to try and level up my 66 hunter to 70 and other alts, but will I even get a spot in a raid if I don't have S3 gear? Will S3 gear become the requirement to run anything at 70 now? Think about this. Is this really what we want?
Anteia Nov 30th 2007 4:21AM
To those saying that these items are too easy to attain ... well, why aren't you attaining them? Seriously. One of the main complaints I've heard is people worrying about how to gear up to even run the end game raids. So this is an easy way they can gear up, not be such a drag on a guild's progression, and actually get INTO the end game raids. It involves them just spending some time by themselves and not pleading for the other guild members to take them into instances. Isn't it really a GOOD thing for people to be able to join in a raid earlier? I'm not a raider myself, but it seems like all those guilds worried about people being geared up before they can go to an area, or not having enough players geared up well enough to have multiple raid groups, can easily fix this by organizing a few arena matches or a one night a week PVP night where you go farm honor and just have fun. I just don't understand why this is perceived as such a negative thing.
Cowgomoo Nov 30th 2007 4:34AM
Did I miss something along the way, I dont think I did.
Raiders= I wasted my time to get owned by PvPers
PvPers= Lawl @ you for wasting your time in BT
Now dont get me wrong its black and white areas. Some ppl do love to raid its thrilling, it takes practice and you see way more story line and lore than sitting in a arena. Grats to those who Raid on a daily basis.
Then theirs PvP, these guys are on steroids and take their anger out on anyone thats Red to them and spend countless hours (which is really the same as raiders) in their content of BGs and Arena, so why not applaud them on their T6 PvP gear that yes some has better stats than some BT gear but they earned it without the GM yelling at them cause they missed a stun, or forgot a heal.
So to me PvP is raiding without the BS of GMs/CLs/and annoying guild mates....Oh did i mention no one and i mean NO ONE can ninja your shit if all you do is PvP. So stop QQ about how everyone and their mother is getting epics, cause honestly those who PvP usually quit to go to other games sooner than those that raid.