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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news"Welfare epics"
by John Himes 
Nov 29th 2007 at 11:45PM
To the best of my recollection, one of the WoW developers first coined the terminology "welfare epics" at last August's Blizzcon. I've had difficulty finding the original source, but as I recall, the context of the talk had to do with the goal of the WoW designers to make all players put forth some degree of effort in obtaining quality gear. The specific gear in question was that purchased with arena points.New arena loot was released to the clamoring masses a couple of days ago, and some of the items have arena rating requirements on them, thus setting in motion the designers' plan to avoid a proliferation of welfare epics. As per usual with changes of this magnitude, the official forums are rife with controversial topics. This time around, its the PvE players arguing with PvP players regarding the quality and accessibility of arena loot. Some of this debate spilled over into the comments on one of my own recent posts, piquing my interest in the issue even further.
Today, in a rare occurrence on the WoW forums, a player composed a thoughtful and non-inflammatory thread in order to discuss the topic. While there are some interjections by trolls, the thread is primarily filled with level-headed debate and interesting suggestions as to how the PvE/PvP disparity can be understood and fixed (if such a fix is even necessary). Although I would disagree with the original poster's (Ultros) definition of "welfare epic", kudos to him for sparking one of the better forum posts I've read in a long time. Click on the "Read" link below to check it out yourself.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
klink-o Nov 30th 2007 6:47AM
You've never had someone yell at you in a battleground or arena? What magical realm do you come from?
brett Nov 30th 2007 4:57AM
I think Blizzard has really stepped over the threshold here with season 3. The gear is simply too comparable with the best epics in the game raidwise. Combine that with the small number of raids that are progressing past vashj/kael and you create a path of least resistance that creates a bad feedback loop. Less people feel like they need to raid to get great gear, less raids get organized, less people can find raids.
Lets face facts outside of a PvE battleground like AV PvE gear is largely useless in PvP. With no resilience and far less stamina you die, very fast. However the converse is not always true.
I know plenty of rogues and warriors farming Illidan who use arena weapons. A few of them have already managed to obtain rating and picked up s3 weapons. Some may say "but all that item budget going to resilience is wasted", but seriously, it ends up being not a major concern.. at all.
With the new rating requirements, things are getting better, however I feel like the requirements haven't gone quite far enough. I'd like to see every piece on a ladder, maybe you only need 1500 for the gloves, ranging all the way up to 2k for shoulders. The same system should be pushed out to the s2 as well, just scale down the rating requirements slightly, range it from 1300-1800 perhaps.
Some may say this would be akin to the old Honor ladder system. However that system really didn't reward skill so much as time invested. The arena system is a much purer skill reward ( cheeseball restodruid/warrior 2v2 aside ).
I'd also like to see more "unique procs and abilities" on the PvE gear to maybe draw some people back into the raids. The Edge of Madness (I might have the name wrong) off of C'Thun was highly sought for PvP with its disorient proc for instance. There are a few such procs now (Worldbreaker as an example) but far fewer, and there are *very* few on the t6 gear.
Another annoyance... weapons in raids can be quite scarce.. meanwhile in the arena system they are a guarantee. If you want the weapon you save up for it, under the current system you can buy a weapon that isn't *quite* the top end of the spectrum without any kind of skill requirement. My raid has been farming illidan for months. We have yet to see a single t6 DPS two hander... ever. They need to be less rare.
/rant over
Oblitherax Nov 30th 2007 5:32AM
I really don't get why everyone is upset about this. Fine, pvp epics are easy to get. Fine, it costs next to nothing to be able to get them instead of raiding. I get it.
But, I raid because it's fun and when I get a drop it's something I can be proud of and feel accomplishment I'm getting.
If you don't enjoy raiding then you have another option. If the drop you're waiting for is never dropping, then you have another option. PvP gear is great if you're going to PvP. It's ok if you're going to raid. Raiding gear is great if you're going to raid and ok if you're going to PvP.
Ultimately everything seem balanced and people have many options for getting the "sweet purplez" everyone plays this game to get. I really don't understand why people get so upset when it becomes easier for other people to gear up.
Heck, if anything it's going to mean a few people in my raid whom haven't got the drops they need are going to get geared up faster so we can progress and that when I try and grab a Heroic pug those few times I can't go with my guild that the chances are better that my pugmates will be a little better geared.
Seriously, get over your "leetness" and just have fun with it.
Heilig Nov 30th 2007 5:44AM
The case on my server is not so much the S3 gear but the S1 gear. I don't really have a problem with /dancing in arena to get your welfare epics. At least then you have a time frame of multiple weeks to get one or two pieces of gear. That is the same sort of investment raiders make.
The problem is the S1 gear can be had in less than a week, all 5 pieces AND a weapon. It requires literally NO skill to do this, and yes, it makes me mad to see people that I know are horrible players in gear comparable to my own.
To all the poeple screaming about e-peens and how casuals deserve to get some good stuff too: No, you don't. Someone who has a casual interest in anatomy does not get to be a heart surgeon. Someone who casually plays piano does not get to perform in Carnegie Hall. Hunters who turn with the keyboard and use turtles in instances SHOULD NOT get to have a single piece of purple gear. If you want your "purpz," learn to play your class, don't be an idiot, and get invited to raids and heroics, or go win some arena matches. If you're not capable of doing those things, you don't get epics. They're called "epic" for a reason. You know, it's the level beyond "uncommon" and "rare"? Every retard that can sit through a few hundred AV's without actually doing anything useful should NOT be able to get them. Call me an elitist all you want, but face the fact that PvP gear that is this easy to obtain and this high quality is a slap in the face to raiders everywhere. If the quality of the PvP gear is going to scale this quickly and for so little effort, the raiding gear should be upgraded with every patch too.
Ender Nov 30th 2007 9:16AM
Are you honestly comparing moving your few pixels around and mashing some buttons to being a heart surgeon? Are you then comparing it to performing at Carnegie Hall? Really?
Are you seriously getting mad because some other guy is moving his pixels around and mashing some buttons in a completely different setting and getting rewarded with completely different (if equivalent) pixels?
If you spend countless hours raiding, farming consumables for raids, and reading strategies for raids, don't pretend that you do it just for the gear. You do it because you enjoy raiding.
Similarly, hardcore PvPers do not spend so much time building up their arena ratings just for the gear. They do it because they enjoy PvP and want to be the best at it. The PvP gear is just a means to that.
The people that you're getting mad at are your guildies, and the rest of the wanna-be raiders - the people who want to break into your 'elite priesthood' of raiding but keep getting shut out because their gear isn't good enough. Now they have a way to get gear without you getting off your high horse to run Karazhan with them.
Raiding is easy. You run up against the same, unthinking mobs and bosses week after week, who are guaranteed to do the same thing every time. All you have to do is apply the formula you found on a website somewhere, and you'll win every time. The ONLY thing that can be hard about it is managing people. It requires no exceptional skill as a player, simply gear equivalent to the raid instance you're in.
PvP does require skill as a player. It requires that you go up against another thinking, reacting, unpredictable person and counter their moves. Additionally, it requires gear sufficient to withstand their attacks, and to damage them with attacks of your own.
The people that should be getting mad here are the real PvPers - the skilled players who honestly earn their high arena ratings. Raidnoobs are exploiting the PvP system to obtain gear because they haven't been managed (read: babysat) well enough by their guild leadership to complete encounters that drop the gear they need to progress.
Personal rating requirements are the best thing that Blizzard has done to the arena system. The only complaint I would have about them is that weapons should require the 2000 rating, and shoulders the 1850.
Ortai Nov 30th 2007 12:35PM
@29 My thoughts exactly.
Gear is means to an end. Either having fun in arenas or having fun raiding or both.
Why raiders feel the need to put down pvpers is beyound me. It IS an epeen thing I think. Raiders did not care about pre-bc PvP reward epics because, for the most part, the people that could get the HWL stuff were relitively rare because it was more of a grind that any raiding progression. The pre-bc rep reward epics did not touch what they had.
And raiders, be pround of your accomplishments, and don't put down PvPers like me who work hard for my gear by throwing on a blanket "welfare epics" label. I have worked my rear off to get where I am.
Does the system need to be refined? Sure, but what should the systems be? Let me tell you, if one starts as a newly minted 70 and wants to get a s3 weap, It will be a steep climb, that involves hundreds of combined hours in BGs to get S1 gear, loosing arenas to get a dropped raiting to get some aromor pieces, and finally fighting to get your raiting up at the end to get the weap.
You want to know the real reason raiders want pvp gear? You can realiably get a piece in a given amount of time, really slowly if you game the system, alot faster if you work at it. In a raid, you are at the mercy of a random number generator. Many players have raided a place over and over again only to see something not drop after mutiple repeated times. Half the time (or more), someone else with more DKP will snatch up the item you want. With PvP you know you will get that item with a given amount of work.
THAT is the draw of PvP items.
PvP items are inferior to equivant raiding items for most classes because of the stat allocation, heavy on stam, resilance, etc., light on +hit (physical or spells, it is a nessisity in raiding from what I understand), defence, in the case of tanks, for casters. A BT weap drop will be superior to a S3 weap, in most cases, because of this.
Blizz's raid itemization has only exasperated the problem for some class/spec's. Its alot harder to gear b/oomkins than a resto druids in raids. The same is true for enhancement (and to a lesser extent ele) shaman and ret pallies. PvP is a better option for these classes because of this.
Really raiders, your view is simplistic, as if everyone /dances to get their gear. Blizz has and will continue to refine the system, but I doubt people like you all will ever be satisfied as long as pvpers have a change to get good, non-raid gear.
bub Nov 30th 2007 6:07AM
It's all about the WEAPONS.
Reading that forum link was probably the most annoying thing I will do today. They need to nerf the arena weapons so they cant be used in PVE. If they did that then everyone would be happy. No mention of arena armor sets, no idiology on play styles, the problem is the weapons and only the weapons.
The pvp crowd seem to know this, they know the s3 dagger they got should get taken out of pve so they try to shift the focus away from the actual problem (which they succeed at) and try to make it a big picture of pvp v pve and the gameplay yada yada. It's just the weapons, only the weapons. Nerf em already.
We live in a pve world, and pvp is just for big girls.
Ortai Nov 30th 2007 12:48PM
@bub The weapons are nerfed bub, in their stat allocation.
Marsh Nov 30th 2007 6:10AM
I raid Black Temple and I had 2200+ rated arena teams. I'm in the process of starting the pvp gear grind all over again since S3 just started. People who say getting pvp gear takes less effort than getting PvE gear are full of shit plain and simple.
Their logic they use is just faulty which is based mostly on a lack of first hand experience. It's also a thinly guised attempt to force more people to raid and to make pve gear leet in pvp again.
People who say pvp gear is so easy to get should go try to get a full set of S3 arena gear + S3 weapons + full set of S3 honor gear + 60 heroic badges for the S3 pvp cape. That's A LOT of /played believe me.
Here's some math:
Full set of S3 arena gear + weapons = 13,000 arena points. If you were getting 500 arena points a week then it would take you over 6 months to get 13,000 points.
S3 honor ring, boots, belt, neck, bracers, trinket cost about 100k honor. Getting 100k honor takes a loooong time. I get maybe 10k honor in a good week. Most people get less. That's about 3 months of grinding battlegrounds if not more.
Then I have to farm up 60 badges for my cape. That's 12 heroic runs atleast or a few kara / ZA runs just for a cape.
And people grinding honor for the S1 gear have to get over 175k+ honor. Good luck with that.
I got epics much much faster from raiding. It was easier and took less /played time in total. And I only raided once or twice a week. That's about 6 hours of /played. The only difference is that you can put in the /played for your pvp gear at your own pace, for however long you want, whenever you want. Whereas raiding you have to do it at certain times for a longer stint. But it isn't more /played in total.
Raiding isn't even all that expensive anymore after consumables were nerfed. You get flasks from ssc and tk. Repairs are pretty low for most classes and can be paid for through guild banks or easily with dailies.
PvP also takes more skill. I don't think a lot of people would argue with that.
So in conclusion. Go get a full set of S3 arena gear, get a 2000+ rating, get a full set of S3 honor gear, go get 60 heroic badges for your S3 cape, then you can say it's easy. Cuz I'm in a Black Temple guild and I can tell you that raiding is easy as hell.
Stop trying to ruin an alternative method of obtaining gear in a pathetic attempt to boost the raid scene. The reason raiding is less popular these days is because TBC raid content doesn't feel as epic as old raid content thanks to the reduction of raids to 25 man and the lack of soul. Onyxia > Grull. MC / BWL > SSC / TK. Naxx > BT.
Alkahn Nov 30th 2007 2:17PM
I think the point is, the PVEers aren't so concerned with "welfare epix" (plural) - they're more concerned with the singular EPIC weapon (except for DW classes).
In PVE, the greatest contributor to your throughput (be it HPS, TPS, or DPS) is your weapon. Slot by slot, it's your biggest upgrade slot. And it's also the slot for which the PVP reward BEST matches your role in PVE.
I'm a PVEer who doesn't really care for PVP, however I'm also a good teamate, someone who maxes my gear, enchants my stuff, etc. So if I'm being a good teamate, I *should* be going for S2 weapons (even as a sucky PVPer) because they're the biggest upgrade I could get for PVE, even if I have no interest in any of the other slots for PVP.
Weapons are also relatively rare in PVE. We have a backlog of 5 casters in my guild who all wanted the Prince's dagger, but it never dropped for us. Compare that to the effort if we shoved the 5 of them on an Arena team to lose for the good of the guild, and get not just better but MUCH better rewards from arena season 2.
It also makes the ZA weapons, which *should* be a boon for those guilds not big enough/far enough to do TK/SSC, obsolete before they're released, if you're taking the easy road.
Ignoring all the PVP-only gear, I'd say PVP is definitely the path of least resistance to get the most important upgrade. There are one-off exceptions (my shadow priest, 2xexalted in VE has never seen the +shadow dmg necklace and got the S3 neck), but in general the weapons are the only piece you need. Throw that 6-month grind out the window.
Tridus Nov 30th 2007 6:25AM
The weapons are the problem.
Why? The item budget simply doesn't matter as much as on the armor. 100 dps on a dagger is 100 dps, it beats a 90 dps dagger even if some of the budget is on resilience.
The Hunter "wand" is the best example of this stupidity in action. You can't Raptor Strike for a ton with a "wand", but you can with a crazy DPS axe. (Thats also the best example of a welfare epic, since they made it way cheaper then even the other weapons.)
The scaling on these weapons is totally out of control.
mcclary Nov 30th 2007 8:01AM
This may've been said, so I apologize if i restate. (These posts are all very lengthy, and I don't have time to read them at work.)
I have chosen the path of PVP, and so when I see armories of people in full PVP gear of the most recent season I am jealous since that's what i am trying to obtain. When I see armories of raiders with items like "drops from illidan. low 5-15%" I am impressed because I know that wasn't easy to get. I think raiders have more right to be proud of their gear, while PVPers should be proud of their arena rating and lifetime HKs, not their gear.
Either way, it's been said already. It's just 2 different ways to have fun.
Marsh Nov 30th 2007 9:02AM
I don't know why you'd be impressed with people in raid gear. It's not very hard to get. Getting raid gear is much easier these days since there's 25 people in a raid instead of 40 and more items drop you can bid on per boss.
I'd say getting any epic gear is more or less equally hard to get in this game. Some takes more skill to get (2000+ rated arena teams), some takes lots of of grinding and /played time (honor gear), some takes getting lucky enough to get in a decent raid guild, some takes lots of rep grinding, some takes lots of badge farming, etc.
They all take pretty equal amounts of PERSONAL effort. Although I'd say raiding takes the least amount of personal effort since it's more of a group thing.
Zyla Nov 30th 2007 10:20AM
As a point of clarification, the term welfare epic originated when the new honor system was first introduced. Prior to the current honor system, raiders didn't really care about PvP epics because the epic items were very difficult to attain.
People who say raiding is as easy as PvP for gear have either never raided or have never done so in a mid-tier guild. In top tier guilds, raiding is very easy. The middle ranges are where raiding is difficult. These guilds tend to have a strong core of 15-20 players but have to constantly add new pieces to the puzzle as people churn for whatever reason.
The top tier guilds can replace people quickly because many people want to join a guild with Illidan on farm. They generally get to pick and choose from the best geared people available. The ones struggling to down Vashj of Kael are constantly picking up people half geared from T4 and trying to teach teach them how to raid in a 25 man environment. The worst part is when tanks and healers churn. They are the hardest to replace for a mid-tier guild.
Mark Nov 30th 2007 11:20AM
@27 Ya I totally agree.
Now the topic of getting arena points is going to be MUCH more difficult because of the masses of nubs that have S1 and S2 gear. Practically the 2100-2300 bracket is going to be the 1600-1900 bracket because of the massive load of gear. I know skill has SOME part of winning in arenas, but in truth (although I know there are exceptions) gear does mean a LOT...(i.e. a blue/partially epic geared team will have a VERY tough time beating a full S1 or S2 geared team no matter the skill level)
I do agree with all of the people saying the price/accessibility of weapons (specifically the off-hands) are unfair. I mean the main hands costing 2625 or 3150 points will take a nub team at a 1500-1600 about a couple of months to get. Sure that is a lot faster, cheaper and easier than going to BT or TK to get that gear, but in truth, how much of a difference is a weapon going to make if person A has the welfare epic dagger with BG blues vs person B has full T4/5 with a kara or SSC dagger? I truly think people give too little credit to the "lower raid" (kara, Grulls, Mag, SSC) than they deserve...
Krick Nov 30th 2007 11:28AM
The meaning of welfare epics has changed over time.
Originally, it referred to epics that were obtained by losing 10 matches a week. In practice, this was painful since it would take a player a month or more to get a single piece of arena gear.
With the latest patch, welfare epics now refers to season 1 epics obtained through honor in battlegrounds.
In the arenas, you can't even begin to compete in blue gear since you won't stay alive for more than a few seconds regardless of your actual PvP skill level. So to lower the barrier to entry for new arena players, Blizzard had to make it easier to get a full set of epic gear in a reasonable amount of time that would at least give you chance to be competitive in the arenas.
The only time I really care about what gear other players have is when they're running around tarren mill or stv in a full set of welfare epics griefing lowbies while I'm trying to level an alt (yeah, I'm on a PvP server).
...
Krick
http://www.tankadin.com
GamerJunkie Nov 30th 2007 11:38AM
Only 1% of total guilds pushed past SSC in to BT, so 99% are casual. Giving casuals more gear to push into BT, is that something bad?
Something Clever Nov 30th 2007 11:48AM
@11
Nicely put.
I think the main complaint is the time invested. The time invested in PvP gear (specifically Arena) is no where near the time invested for high end Raid/PvE gear. The ease with which PvP gear is obtained in comparison with the random drop system is gigantic.
Dark Nov 30th 2007 11:48AM
Our guild is just at the point where we can easily clear Kara (we're a somewhat casual guild that likes to raid). My main is a rogue who was fortunate enough to get Spiteblade off our first Netherspite kill. That was about a month before Blizz announced that the S1 gear would be purchasable for honor. Now, every rogue in the guild has the S1 main and offhands, and my guild-first Spiteblade sits in the bank because I can't quite bring myself to shard it yet.
There's two sides I see here-
On one hand, the S1 "welfare epics" trivialize many of my guild's raiding accomplishments that we've put a ton of time and effort into. We're not on the leading edge of content... we're progressing at a slower speed, but we're still pretty happy about our accomplishments and guild firsts. They've been tainted now however, by an influx of easily attainable and similar-to-better epics. Why raid when you can get better gear via pvp? And if you can get BT level gear, why bother doing the instance? I know this is going through a number of our guild members' minds right now.
On the other hand, this new influx of gear has dramatically increased the capabilities of some of our newer members. It has decreased the amount of time we have to sit and wait for specific drops, allowing us to move on faster. Is that bad? Maybe for Blizzard, since we won't be spending the extra time there. It's certainly not bad for those of us who have seen more than enough of lower Kara and want to move on. It feels a little cheap though. Our folks are still showing up for raids, so it hasn't hurt us... yet.
I have a little theory about what Blizz is doing with all the badges, new badge gear, "welfare epics", etc. I personally think they're just getting us ready for the expansion. I think they're trying to level the playing field again by making a certain level of gear easily attainable. Thats the only reason I can think of for the sudden increase in badge drops and cheap S1 gear.
GamerJunkie Nov 30th 2007 11:55AM
@36, your theory is relative. 3-6 month before release of BC, Blizz decided to make the entire Field Marshal set available via honor. In less than 1-2 month you have raiders AFKing AV just to get the Grand Marshal weapons which is equal or comparable to BWL and AQ40 weapons.
The good thing is raiding became easier as more people have access to good gear but you still have less respect for those newbs on ezmode who got that GM blade equal to your Ashkandi that you bid like crazy with your 4 month worth of DKP to get.