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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria news"Welfare epics"
by John Himes 
Nov 29th 2007 at 11:45PM
To the best of my recollection, one of the WoW developers first coined the terminology "welfare epics" at last August's Blizzcon. I've had difficulty finding the original source, but as I recall, the context of the talk had to do with the goal of the WoW designers to make all players put forth some degree of effort in obtaining quality gear. The specific gear in question was that purchased with arena points.New arena loot was released to the clamoring masses a couple of days ago, and some of the items have arena rating requirements on them, thus setting in motion the designers' plan to avoid a proliferation of welfare epics. As per usual with changes of this magnitude, the official forums are rife with controversial topics. This time around, its the PvE players arguing with PvP players regarding the quality and accessibility of arena loot. Some of this debate spilled over into the comments on one of my own recent posts, piquing my interest in the issue even further.
Today, in a rare occurrence on the WoW forums, a player composed a thoughtful and non-inflammatory thread in order to discuss the topic. While there are some interjections by trolls, the thread is primarily filled with level-headed debate and interesting suggestions as to how the PvE/PvP disparity can be understood and fixed (if such a fix is even necessary). Although I would disagree with the original poster's (Ultros) definition of "welfare epic", kudos to him for sparking one of the better forum posts I've read in a long time. Click on the "Read" link below to check it out yourself.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Smurk Nov 30th 2007 12:16PM
I lol'd at the seemingly random use of a dark-skinned 'toon as the image associated with "welfare epics."
Ghost Nov 30th 2007 4:35PM
So rather than talking in general, I'm going to talk in specifics. As a feral druid in a guild that is 3/4 TK and 4/6 SSC, PVP gear has become almost required. For feral DPS, not including BT/MH drops, the best in class gear comes from: 3 arena S3, 2 karazhan, 1 Gruul, 3 SSC, 1 honor, 2 badges, 1 crafted, and 1 rep reward. The honor reward bracer is actually the best in game for feral at the moment. The S2 and S3 weapons are the best in game for DPS -- they significantly exceed the BT feral weapon drop.
For PvE, PVP has become a way to accelerate our progression so that we can get to BT and MH before Sunwell comes out.
So if you are a raiding feral druid not killing Illidan already, you are not doing all you can do to advance your PvE progress until you are on an arena team and farming enough honor to buy honor rewards. If you run the numbers for all the feral equippable gear, you will find this to be true.
Paw Nov 30th 2007 12:43PM
I spent hundreds of hours working really really hard in order to get the chilipepper red paint option for my new Honda. I earned that red paint. Now I see that some dude in a Toyota has almost the same color red! And he didn't even have to work for it because it was a standard! He isn't even in a sport coupe like me! He's in a pick-up! I don't think Toyota pick-ups should have almost the same color red as my Honda sport coupe! It isn't fair that I had to spend all kinds of extra time getting something that someone else got by simply picking it out off the lot! It isn't fair! Car companies should be required to make the same requirements for getting almost the same color red on their vehicles. I mean, where is the fun in just picking the car off the lot? I had to work extra hard for mine and order mine special. It took a long time, and I had to wait months before it was delivered. Now some people can just go to the lot and get almost the same thing?
Stupid argument? Yes. But so is this.
Ender Nov 30th 2007 2:00PM
Paw wins this argument. I laughed (hard) at work.
Westley Dec 18th 2007 8:56PM
And the winnner is you. Well put.
Ortai Nov 30th 2007 12:44PM
So I am reading these comments from raiders on S3 weaps, and it is all about daggers? Get a life people a pvp dagger does not ruin the game.
original2k Nov 30th 2007 12:53PM
you guys have pretty much hit the nail on the head from both perspectives so there's no need to elaborate on that. i'm a pvper that is in a raiding guild. both sides have valid points of course but really why shouldn't people who don't raid be forbidden from getting nice gear?
in the end we all pay $$$ to the big blizz, i really don't have much desire to start running the big raids with my guild, at least not right now. main reason is because as dps (rogue) i'm required to have minimum stat representation (mainly hit rating) that the arena/pvp gear does not have for us. for me to participate in our runs i'd need to go find new gear altogether...and i'm only assuming that most of these top raiding guilds have similar class standards for participation as well..
so i honestly commend blizzard on giving the rest of us some sort of gratification for playing their game to the end. really a lot of the quest rewards look horrible and don't make u feel like ur time spent getting to 70 had any significance other than achieving the level itself. the gear they give allows the rest of us to still feel a sense of accomplishment in obtaining nice gear via different roads.
let's face it, not everybody can devote particular nights to running these high level group encounters, but that doesn't mean that we should be forced to devote such time to getting some nice stuff. the weapon/shoulder rating prereq was an excellent way to limit some of the key items to those who go over the bar.
imo it's just a bit of 'elitism' that has gone too far and is being dwelled upon far too heavily
Verit Nov 30th 2007 12:57PM
Weapons aren't the problem - neither is the gear itself - have you guys even looked at the stats on arena gear? You'd never catch me in a raid with that stuff on why?
No hit - or very little hit, and not enough mana (I even play a warlock). Why do you need +hit when everything you're up against is lvl 70? See what I'm saying?
It may have amazing stats in every other sense, but your not going to be able to hit bosses 25-35% of the time either.
Also for casters - Arena gear is heavily focused on stamina - at the cost of mana. Most of this gear won't help you in longer boss fights.
I really honestly don't see any guild advancing or progressing faster because they got "cheap" epics (fyi - each season 1 piece is 10-15k honor - you know how long it takes to grind that out?)
All I see is a bunch of pissed of raiders who think its a crying shame that people who don't or can't raid might get something nice (and fyi - I'm a raider too - I spend far more time in 25 mans and 10 mans than bg or arena).
mike Nov 30th 2007 1:06PM
Just make it so you can only use arena gear in arenas. Problem solved.
Matrim Nov 30th 2007 2:32PM
You, sir, fail.
I have mostly s2/s3 arena gear as a lock. And while I put in a good show at most of the raids I participate in I'm still far behind the fire-mages in dps.
So how is limiting my pvp gear that I've worked my ass off for only in arenas an acceptable solution?
In the end PvE gear is great for pve and pvp gear is better for pvp. You CAN get both kids, you don't need to only have one set of gear. Hell even mixing in pvp gear while you run the treadmill of random-drop-ness will help your guild progress.
/gasp! Quit the elitest dickery allready
squirldude Nov 30th 2007 1:21PM
@ 17...
S3 is just as good for PvP as T6 is for PvE is what i was trying to get across
Angelus Nov 30th 2007 4:01PM
wow is it raining here or.... oh no is a buncha T_Ters. Oh STFU already you buncha frackin cry babies. lmao.
**WARNING** bring a life preserver to this thread because its a flood of tears.
Here's a tip: Do both- pvp and raid. Stop crying its embarrasing.
Cowgomoo Nov 30th 2007 4:40PM
Damn Paw that sucks about your chilipepper red paint on your honda coupe.......fawking toyotas!
Did a lock really say he worked hard for his PvP gear, LAWL!!!! 2 great laughs amongst all the QQ in this thread. Paw was the first, and a lock saying he worked hard HAHAAHHAA, oh stop the pain in my side from laughing.
Way off topic but who cares....what if we took the pets away from Locks now that would be interesting, their just side decorations anyways, hell my noncombat pet is more useful at standing around than theirs.
Pook Nov 30th 2007 7:46PM
Having killed Prince in Kara every week for the last 6months and his damn caster dagger never dropping (at all), I decided to give in and just grind the honor to get the season1 spellblade - So i did AV for 10hours last weekend and now i have my dagger.
I just did a quick bit of maths and i spend around 200 hours in kara to fail to get the dagger i was after, spending hundreds if not thousands of gold in the proccess. How gear that is so easy to get can be of a comparable (or far better) grade is beyond me.
Ortai Dec 1st 2007 10:43AM
Your example is not about ease, it's about randomness. The Prince dagger could have dropped at your furst run at him, costing less time on than your av runs and a minimum of gold.
dirty Nov 30th 2007 8:11PM
Personally, I don't mind that good arena teams get good gear. The part that bothers me is hearing about teams who game the arena system to get their gear: the so called arena smurfs.
If you're a good raider, you get the good gear. Likewise, if you're on a good arena team, and actually winning legitimate battles, then you get good gear.
I think that many of the raiders who have commented here are concerned about that point. It's real difficult to say to an instance boss: "okay, you lose 10 times this week. Next week, _I'll_ lose 10 times."
Pook Nov 30th 2007 10:38PM
If you want to make it fair, they should change it so you save up your arena points, you take them to the arena vendor & he *might* give you a bit of equipment or he might not... or it might be something of no use .... ooh well better look next time.
Ortai Dec 1st 2007 10:46AM
Or make it so the bosses only drop tokens that will be redeemable for gear, sorta like the heroic bages, but applied everywhere.
Boon Dec 23rd 2007 5:36AM
i would like to reply to comment #5 if it hasnt been replied to yet. sorry didnt read all the way through the posts. i dont know how it is on your server but on the "purple dome of love" (dalaran) it was a nightmare to run bg's pre-burning crusade/pre-arena. the raiders on both sides would come in there with their t1/t2/t2.5/t3 gear on and just waste everyone. grinding honor out to get the pvp gear was damn near impossible with the competition for the top spots and therefore top gear. when blizz implemented arena it gave non-raiding players a better than outside chance to obtain raid quality gear without having to grind honor 8hrs a day 7 days a week. pre-bc thats what you had to do to get HW or GM rank. so for raiders to say that blizz is just giving away epics is ludicrous. i think the raiders are just pissed that they cant go into bg's with their pre-mades "for a giggle and not expecting to do well." and kick everyones asses anymore. pugs with arena gear on will most assuredly put up a good fight and most often put a whoopin' on em. the balance has shifted and pvpers are finally getting some love from blizz. i think its overdue. just my 2c.
BOON