Children of a lesser guild
by Elizabeth Wachowski 
Nov 30th 2007 at 11:30AM
The worst part of guild membership is, by far, watching a guild die. I've seen guilds die from poor recruiting practices, internal drama, and, in one memorable case, a disgruntled member with /gkick privileges. But the most painful death I ever saw was that of a large casual raiding guild in which I was an officer. We weren't very good, and we never progressed far, mostly because anyone decent in our guild was immediately recruited away by one of the high-end guilds on our server. We kept it together for several months, but in the end, ten of our best players (including our two tanks and the best healer) were poached away by another guild. Eventually, the guild leader and I left too.
Judging by his post on the EU General forums, Aires, GM of Flames of the Phoenix on EU-Terenas, is having the same problem. His small Kara guild is being eaten away by larger guilds who whisper his members, invite them to come to 25-mans, and then ask them if they'd like to join. Admirably, Aires does not cry about it or name names, but asks a general question: Is it ethically right to poach members from smaller guilds who don't approach you first?
Opinions seem to be divided. On one hand, few people will argue that it's "nice" to cannibalize a smaller guild, and many SSC/TK guilds who do this to "loser guilds" would scream bloody murder if a BT/Hyjal guild did the same to them. But every server also has a limited supply of players who don't suck, and new recruits do have to come from somewhere. Plus, there's no real way to steal a player who doesn't want to be stolen in the first place.
The thread also contains a rare personal opinion from a Blizzard employee. CM Vaneras says that your answer to the question basically depends on why you play the game. If you play for what Vaneras terms "shiny epics", you probably won't see anything wrong with poaching, while those who play for "the cameraderie and accomplishments of a guild" will hate it.
What do you think about guild poaching?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Xonate Nov 30th 2007 11:44AM
Sounds right to me. Our guild has been having almost the same problem, as a more casual raiding guild still goofing off in Karazhan without enough people online at the right times to do any of the larger raids, we've been losing a lot of people lately due to the same thing. Most of us go for, as you said, the "cameraderie and accomplishments," but it's those who only care about epic loots that are leaving. A larger guild first will invite one or two of them to go to Kara with them, will then run those people through, giving them all the epics that drop there, and then try to recruit them. Unfortunately, it's more or less a fail-safe plan, as the only people who would run with another guild anyway are the types who only want free epics. The people who want to stay with our guild for the friendship and whatnot wouldn't run with another guild in the first place.
Kats Nov 30th 2007 7:23PM
People don't just leave because of epic loots or lack of patience. They leave when the guild isn't meeting their needs. It is possible to be in a good guild with great people that can do Karazhan but there aren't enough people in the guild wanting to raid to be able to do the 25 man content.
There comes a point where a member may have waited and waited and tried and tried to get people geared up and interested in that content...but has failed. The member has everything from Karazhan, has helped everyone progress, would still help new people progress, and could do it in their sleep. At that point, the member has to keep doing the same thing over and over every week and face not being able to see new content...or can go somewhere where the potential progress is there. I can see that as being a person who loves their guild and the members but is bored with doing the same thing all the time.
Evil M Nov 30th 2007 11:47AM
As an officer in an SSC/TK level guild I've watched a few get poached and I think it's a fairly disgusting practice. However, I think it's just as disgraceful that those who get invited actually take the invites.
I think Vaneras summarizes it fairly well, in that those who are truly just in it for the loot and the boss downings will jump/allow themselves to be poached.
Realistically though, we're all in it for the loot and boss downings,so it's just a matter of whether you want to see the big boss die with a group of friends or strangers.
I would think the group of friends would be more fun.
niko Nov 30th 2007 11:54AM
i'm in a guild that has become victim of the "poached" mentality. It's too bad, too, since the only reason I'm still in WoW is because of the guild's amazing friendships. The 70's finally got tired of not getting the endgame raiding started (even Kara was not in our sights, as casual as we were), so they jumped ship to a more serious guild.
Granted, perhaps that's what our guild needed the whole time, but the fact that we've lost our mainstays is pretty much writing on the wall for the beginning of the end of our AWESOME guild. I'm truly sad. I've coped by rerolling horde on another server to tide me over for a while, but I'm starting to wonder why I'm playing this game again. :(
I still don't have a 70 (60 is as far as I've gotten in a year, but filled with 3 other solid alts), but I'm thinking I may never get there at this pace.
WTB good guild on Echo Isles - Alliance, plzkkthxbai. :(
Geo Lara Nov 30th 2007 12:55PM
I'm a guild officer in a small casual social guild and we get poached all the time.
Niko I feel your pain. Players come to our guild because they pug with us, feel like we are nice people and stay because the like the friendly atmosphere. Then they hit 70 and get lured by the "shiny epix" and find them selves in a raiding guild.
Endersion Nov 30th 2007 11:58AM
Its wrong but people do it, infact the best guilds in the world make it a constant practice when recruiting (Nihilum for instance). As it was stated in the article though, "there's no real way to steal a player who doesn't want to be stolen in the first place."
Syl Nov 30th 2007 12:03PM
Crappy Kara guilds are a dime a dozen. And every kara guild has at least a few members who are good players that are frustrated at their guilds inability to progress. Those are your targets for poaching.
Xonate Nov 30th 2007 12:30PM
Actually something I've noticed is that the larger guilds are taking the least-geared, least-qualified people in our smaller casual guild. In a way I guess it makes sense, because they're saying "Come raid with us and get free epics to replace those greens and blues!" and then 10 seconds later... "Come join our guild and do bigger raids with us!" I suppose this is the only way that work, because most of our better geared, more experienced people have been with us for a while, have learned their classes better, have done heroics and Karazhan and all of that with us, and wouldn't leave us. The better people in the guild are all more closely knit, I believe.
Kaljin Nov 30th 2007 12:10PM
Its capitalism basically. Corporations will buy out the weaker ones gain money over time. It is somewhat similar to here, but the corporation (guild) buys workers (guildmates)
Fearless Nov 30th 2007 12:28PM
The whole concept of "casual" vs. "raider" came about because PvE progression required a commitment of time, effort, skill and supplies that only those willing and able could match. Let's say you have a guild of 15 people. Five of them are into endgame PvE, and are chomping at the bit to hit Karazhan. Three are PvPers, and do nothing but Arenas and Battlegrounds all day, and go "PvE, lol" when anyone mentions raiding, since they have Season 3 epics by now. One is into RP and never leaves Goldshire. Two are leveling lowbie alts, their old raider characters collecting dust at 60. Another three are on every third day, playing a little bit between schoolwork and exams. And one hasn't been seen in three months. The five that are into endgame PvE have two choices: find an alliance and go raiding, so as to keep hanging out with the others, or join a raiding guild that shares their goals and interests.
What right does the remainder of the guild have to complain? Not like they ever shared those five's interests anyway!
Salty Nov 30th 2007 12:30PM
There's all kinds of raiding guilds and some are more Business-oriented than others. I hear horror stories of the raid leaders in the more serious raiding guilds, and I don't doubt for a second that they would actively poach from the lower ranking guilds in the server. Whether it's ethical or not is a non-factor for them, as those guilds tend to be populated by only hardened raiders and such considerations are "for the weak." People with less play time and more concerns about such topics are weeded out and replaced with the mercenaries. The goal is to get as many people with the greatest budget of raiding time as possible, and they'll generally do whatever to accomplish it.
On the other hand, there are a number of very decent guilds run by good people, although they generally don't progress as fast as the jerks. But I can guarantee you that their members are nicer to each-other, more considerate in every respect and better acquainted. They're more likely to have fun and do fun things rather than strictly profitable activities and respect the beliefs of others such as respectful language, making sacrifices on drops and sharing materials, for instance.
One thing I noticed is that occasionally when I was pugging, I'd be invited to a run and hop on vent with a bunch of players from some top-end raiding guild. The whole time they were cursing (way too much) and bitching about childish petty disagreements and talking trash about other players. Sometimes they're even talking about other guilds and how to get into them. I just know that I wouldn't want those types in a guild I ran. Guild-hoppers aren't good for anybody but themselves and they'll see the endgame... but only amongst the throngs of cold and calculating hardcore who won't blink to permanently replace your anonymous raid slot should your play time slacken or real life concerns pull you out of the game.
Your mileage may vary, and for every example I've given there's some guild out there with a screaming raid leader who raid 30+ hours a week and are farming Archimonde, then they get together afterwards and bake cookies and give each other their void crystals and buy each other epic flying mounts entirely of their own independent volition.
In my opinion, and as is my experience, recruiting "upstream" should be about making friends and eventually earning your role and paying your dues. That's the best way to earn the respect of your peers and to be accepted as a valued player begrudging as few as possible in the process. Application-based recruiting initiated by the applicant maintains a level playing field and a sensible DKP system works to reward effort, tenure and contribution. Grandfathering invites breeds resentment and loot councils discourage new members, uncouth language and borderline sociopathic raid dictatorship virtually destroys the atmosphere of comaradere necessary to building bonds that hold guilds together through tough times. Success may suffer, but your members will forgive you for it and won't quit at the drop of a hat.
Salty Nov 30th 2007 2:41PM
Hopping guilds for the promise of loot doesn't make sense, especially to a guild with an established and lengthy DKP history. With a DKP system, you're only going to win loot within your first dozen raids if nobody even _wants_ the item. If you're moving on to join a significantly more progressed guild, there was clearly no deficit of capable players or a gaping wide hole that you'll be filling. That means you're going to have to pay your dues and prove yourself to be given a raiding spot among a player base with greater tenure. It's my observation that players who guild hop often generally have a problem with that whole "pay your dues" aspect and are dismayed by the fact that they can't immediately begin raiding on a frequent basis. After all, it's not like that guild was killing FLK with 24 people and saying "jeez, I really wish we could find another Hunter, ANY Hunter..."
I left a smaller guild which constituted primarily people whom I've known from my very first grouping experiences to see content that will be swallowed up by the next expansion, the very same way I missed MC, ZG, AQ and BWL. What scared me into it was that I still haven't seen much of that content and probably never will - at least with the degree of seriousness to get past 1 or 2 bosses. At 60, I ran only 5-man dungeons ad nauseum. At 70 I ran 5-man dungeons about three times as much before I made that decision to disband from my friends. I worked very hard to progress the best I could within 5-man instances and got as far as I possibly could. The prospect of waiting until the next expansion and then repeating that process of dismally and exclusively farming 5-man dungeons for a 3rd consecutive time chilled me to the core.
I haven't regretted the decision, but I feel bad for leaving my friends behind. It was either quitting the game or moving up - either way I would be leaving them behind. I don't have much time to run with them and I think of myself as a jerk sometimes for it, but I'm resolved to no longer cheating myself out of getting FUN out of a VIDEO GAME /facepalm.
JPN Nov 30th 2007 12:34PM
I guess if I applied it to real life, it would be like this - you have a job, and another company approaches you and wants to hire you. You have to decide...what are the benefits of staying where you are versus taking that offer? Anyone is welcome to make an offer or at the least, ask if you and offer you the opportunity. And if they have something you want and it's in your best interests, you should go.
If you're in a guild that's not giving you what you want, maybe it's time to move on. Of course, loyalty could, and probably should, be somewhat of a factor, but unless you've signed a contract...it's the cost of running a guild. (If you've signed a contract, move on anyway, at least until they release a patch/expansion with some sort of judicial system.)
Sophey Nov 30th 2007 12:37PM
In defense of those that jump ship, it doesn't necessarily mean you're in it for the epics. You can be in it for the accomplishments and realize that after 9 months of Karazhan, you're guild just isn't going to accomplish those things and at that point you begin to look for a place that you can.
airwalke Nov 30th 2007 1:43PM
Sophey is right... sometimes people just leave guilds because they're just plain tired of doing the same crap week after week. I know I've seen several people leave my guild because they want to do TK/SSC instead of making Gruul's the "big raid" every single week.
We've been making progress as the guild poaching on my server has begun to slow, and the members that have left us have been replaced and geared up to the point where we've been able to do Hydross/Lurker/Void Reaver on a consistent basis.
Thab Nov 30th 2007 12:58PM
The specific purpose of my guild is to farm competent lvl 70's. Our goal is to take lower and mid lvls and give them a support system, to develop their skills to the point where they can effectively raid or PvP, and accomplish whatever goals they wish to achieve. Kind of like a academy system. If a top raiding guild wants a member of our guild, its not a disservice to us, its actually a high compliment. We work with players on a level that a serious raiding/pvp guild doesn't have time to fool with. We want our members to
make their own decisions. Our core is a group of friends and family that are in it for the communal aspect, so we don't have to worry about other guilds stealing the essence of what we are.
Medros Nov 30th 2007 1:01PM
I wrote about this topic at http://www.shadowwalkersguild.com/boards/showthread.php?t=3257 and I guess you could say I have little respect for those who leave a guild for the all mighty progression. I have even less respect for guilds who poach members with the lure of epics, especially when they do it by letting them have drops in the instances they invite for.
-Medros
http://www.allthingsazeroth.com/
Paul Nov 30th 2007 2:03PM
I'm not even a level 70, so i haven't poached, been poached, or been the victim of poaching, but I think calling it "all mighty progression" makes it sound like it's an inherently evil thing. As one poster above said, it's not about going further just to go further, sometimes, it's because you're sick of running the same instance over and over for the last 9 months and hitting your head on the casual ceiling.
steve Nov 30th 2007 1:13PM
I'm in a mid-sized casual guild working on SSC/TK and see it cut both ways. I also think that in the end, it is probably a healthy thing for us. We usually need a couple of guest raiders to get the class balances right for 25 man raids, which works great for people from guilds that just aren't big enough to do 25 mans: we get the extra classes we need, they get to learn some new content, and we let them roll on the drops. As you might imagine, some of these folks approach us about joining. By the same token, many of our top raiders have been guests of other guilds for bosses we haven't downed yet and a few of them have subsequently moved on to guilds that were farther in the content. I think in the end this ebb and flow of players has probably made our guild a better place. The players who like the people and are here for the right reasons seem to stick around. The players who are focused on what kind of purples they've equipped or want to be in a top ranked guild move on; but it seems like those types of players caused the most drama, too, and we are probably better off without them.
Verit Nov 30th 2007 1:19PM
I think lack of progression is what drives this. For instance - I'm not in it for the fat loot, but I wouldn't mind seeing - just once - some of these higher end fights.