The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Heresies

The Care and Feeding of Warriors is all tired after a long night stabbing things in Kara. Matthew Rossi finally actually got a drop out of that instance. which, after several months now he was beginning to think didn't actually have loot, just badges. And they just put the badges in, so for a while, he didn't think anything dropped in there.
There are aspects to every class that are hard to explain to someone else, things you just learn as you play and which you incorporate into your playstyle through intuition. One of the reasons I am so unmitigatedly awful at playing a rogue and leave it to the talented rogues I know like Voi and Vizz is that I simply don't understand how to make use of those intuitives. I'm awful at understanding how to make use of things like combo points, for example.
Last night I respecced to bring my warrior into Kara as an offtank/DPS. Part of the reason was that I wanted to try out a 5/41/15 build that I thought would work well for offtanking. It seemed to do fairly well, I died once on a bad pull, but I also managed to grab agg on another bad pull when Vish, our MT, went down and saved a wipe, so I give the build a cautious 8 out of 10 stars. (I may tweak it more to be a more dedicated DW build, as right now it lacks talents in that area.) One of the things I noticed was that I have at this point entirely unlearned the process of both DPSing and tanking as a warrior. Not that I don't know how, but that I don't consciously think about them at all. I've even memorized specific patterns based on what my spec is, and when I have certain spec specific abilities like Shield Slam or Revenge, I don't even have to consider where on my bars to put them or when to use them, it's entirely ingrained.
There are aspects to every class that are hard to explain to someone else, things you just learn as you play and which you incorporate into your playstyle through intuition. One of the reasons I am so unmitigatedly awful at playing a rogue and leave it to the talented rogues I know like Voi and Vizz is that I simply don't understand how to make use of those intuitives. I'm awful at understanding how to make use of things like combo points, for example.
Last night I respecced to bring my warrior into Kara as an offtank/DPS. Part of the reason was that I wanted to try out a 5/41/15 build that I thought would work well for offtanking. It seemed to do fairly well, I died once on a bad pull, but I also managed to grab agg on another bad pull when Vish, our MT, went down and saved a wipe, so I give the build a cautious 8 out of 10 stars. (I may tweak it more to be a more dedicated DW build, as right now it lacks talents in that area.) One of the things I noticed was that I have at this point entirely unlearned the process of both DPSing and tanking as a warrior. Not that I don't know how, but that I don't consciously think about them at all. I've even memorized specific patterns based on what my spec is, and when I have certain spec specific abilities like Shield Slam or Revenge, I don't even have to consider where on my bars to put them or when to use them, it's entirely ingrained.
This can be a good thing, of course, as it becomes easier to improvise in bad situations when you know what you can do and don't have to think about it. But it can also be detrimental if you don't take the time to sit down and take apart your processes from time to time. Whatever your role in a group is, be it MT, OT, DPS or a mixture, you want to avoid the extremes of the centipede's dilemma or becoming an automaton. Since this column is, in effect, a safe place to discuss these aspects of the class I thought I'd do just that, and muse about things related to how one goes about doing these things. In a great part, this is really why I love playing warriors so much, musing about how they work and how I play them, trying out different approaches on each one I play.
A few days ago, while tanking a heroic Arc run into the wee hours of the morning, I had a small epiphany about a very bad habit I, as a warrior tank, have fallen into, namely the Overconfident Tank syndrome. It's actually not so much being overconfident myself as it is not showing proper confidence in your group. If you establish a CC order, you have to trust your CC players to do their jobs. If the CC breaks, and it is the kind of CC that can be reapplied like Polymorph or a hunter trap, then let them reapply it. As a warrior, it is often my instinct to try and save the healer when I see a mob running around loose. This is a good instinct to have. I know many a healer who has applauded my diligence in keeping mobs off of them. But I've let it become so automatic a process that I've had to stop and force myself to relearn it recently, as a couple of years of enduring bad PuG's has given me a twitchy, smack the mob reflex that is frankly counter-productive to the proper running of an instance or raid.
This leads me to the second somewhat heretical insight I've had in recent weeks. Sometimes, even if there is no CC to be reapplied to a mob, it is okay to let it run loose. You do not have to stop building aggro on a target that is taking most of the group's focus fire if an add peels off and goes for someone if that someone is not the healer, especially if that someone can actually take a hit or two. My 'save the squishies' impulse is a good one, but it needs to be tempered with a fast assessment of the situation. What is more important, making sure that the two mobs I still have aggro on stay where they are, or dropping everything to go grab the mob beating on the warlock with almost as much health as I have? It's best to take the time that mob is using to run to its target to throw a few more shield slams or devastates and then intervene when you have the rage rather than to just drop everything. A good DPS player will understand that you didn't let him take those hits out of malice but more out of the necessity of not being able to do everything at once.
This does not mean 'let him die', by the way. DPS is important to every run. You simply can't kill anything without it, so while it does come below the healer in terms of tanking resources and priority, you do in fact want to save the DPS when the inevitable aggro pull happens. Furthermore, as long as they aren't being arrogant jerks about it, you don't have to be one either. One of my biggest flaws as a warrior is that I'm very oversensitive about aggro loss, and take the slightest switch of a mob off of me too personally. This is something you want to avoid as a tank. The point isn't whether or not you hold aggro for the entire fight, the point is that you succeed in completing the encounter. If you get everything you wanted to accomplish done, finish your quests or get some nice loots for yourself or others in the group, then it really doesn't matter if you lost aggro once or twice. In fact, you'd be better off if you accept that yes, you will lose aggro. Don't flip out, don't get mad, just get it back.
So far I've been talking about tanking issues and habits I've accumulated there. But the DPS role is also one that can become too familiar, and needs to be examined. First off, it can become easy to use the same abilities over and over again, sit in one stance the entire time and just plunk at your big damage instants, queueing up a rage dump or on next swing ability to go off between instants as they go on cooldown. Don't do this. Last night I caught myself doing this on two boss fights and wondered what I thought I was accomplishing, and didn't have a really good answer. As a warrior, there are several abilities that you can be using that don't apply much, if any, direct damage to a target but which debuff it or buff your allies. If you're in a group with another warrior (as I was) then look at what shout he's putting up and throw up the complimentary one. Last night, for instance, I often threw up Commanding Shout for the MT because mine is talented and his is not, even though it lowered my DPS somewhat - better to give the tank some extra health in situations like Curator. Heck, I was eating the Hatefuls, I wanted more health too. (As a side note, a DPS warrior in full PvP gear can easily ride out those hatefuls while generating a lot of threat by going into defensive stance and going nuts with bloodthirst. I'm sure many of you already know this, but I usually heal this fight.) Another thing to consider as a warrior doing DPS is, where are my strengths?
As an example, there are several AoE pulls in Kara, where you drag mobs over and have the casters drop heavy AoE damage. Now, as a DPSing warrior, you can use a combination of abilities to help them. Sweeping Strikes + Piercing Howl + Whirlwind won't match their damage, but it does contribute to it, and can even pull aggro onto you for a few key seconds. It's better to have them beating on the dude with 11k+ armor and 13k health than it is to have them whaling on the people in pretty skirts for as long as you can manage it, and doing this kind of area damage is one of the things a fury warrior is absolutely suited to now. Unless you're very, very well geared for it, you probably won't be able to match a rogue's single target DPS, but in a multi-mob situation, a warrior can really excel. Also keep your various interrupts, debuffs, and movement impairing abilities in mind. If you know a caster mob is going to run after your mage if you pummel it, use hamstring or piercing howl as soon as you can. Again, and this is something I have to keep on top of myself, it's less important that you win some DPS competition than it is that the group kills Shade of Aran.
This being said, don't hamper your DPS either. While it's good to pay attention to CC and to control when and where you use specific abilities, by all means do use them. I've had to unlearn my tendency not to whirlwind or use cleave or sweeping strikes. Trust your tank, and pay attention to the fight. If you're in a place where all you'll hit are tanked mobs, use those abilities that hit more than one target. It's especially worthwhile to do this when you see a mob come out of a banish and know it will take a few seconds to be re-banished - keeping a mob close to the melee instead of letting it run after a warlock is always worthwhile. Also, and this is very important, don't hoard rage. If you, like me, have gotten into that habit while soloing, get out of it. You have rage so that you can use your abilities, and it is a renewable resource. You're not playing a mana class here (I think I may have picked this bad habit up from playing my healer too much) so definitely make sure you're using your rage when you're in a DPS role to, well, inflict damage. It is after all why you're there.
Nothing here is new or earthshaking, of course, it's all fairly common sense. The problem lies in when you've become, for better and for worse, experienced enough so that you no longer think about how you're playing, or when you've not become experienced enough yet to understand what you're doing. I think for a warrior it's very important to try and combine the open and flexible mindset you had when you were first learning the class with the experience you acquire as you keep playing. You are not always going to have a clearly defined role. You will often have to trust other people to do things you're used to doing yourself (yes, the mage will be tanking that mob in Gruul's, he's got spellsteal, you don't, suck it up), you need to let your party do what they're there for, and you shouldn't let comfort and confidence in your own abilities become overconfidence or complacency. One of the complaints I see most often when reading PoV pieces from other classes is that warriors think they're the most important part of any party.
We do think that. I know in the past I've thought it, while tanking. It's a huge rush, it's an ego boost, it's one of the things that makes tanks come back in the face of large repair bills, difficult wipes while learning encounters, and the stress of having to be the de facto leader. But what I am about to say strikes at the heart of that mindset.
Stop thinking it.
If you're the most important person there, then demonstrate it by your actions, not your attitude. Do your job. Trust others to do theirs. That's all that you can do, and it's all you have to do.
Well, this has been the least crunchy column we've done here in quite some time. But in the end, this is why I love warriors, which I said I would discuss last week. This is why I want to have a 70 warrior of every race allowable. Because after two years and 3 70's, I'm always learning more about the class, and always learning more about myself by playing it. I did forget to talk about fun gear, though. My apologies. Maybe next time, although I may discuss DPS gear in more detail instead.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Classes, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Emma Marie Dec 21st 2007 11:08AM
Your link to the talent builder isn't showing what points were spent where. Could you relink it, or link it through wowhead instead? I'm interested in the offtank spec you mention. :)
Matthew Rossi Dec 21st 2007 11:18AM
Should be fixed now - try http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZVVzq0xRVuwofVzoh if not, that's the build. Sorry about the dropped link.
Sydal Dec 21st 2007 11:25AM
Ahh, good column. The part about tanks thinking they're most important hit home with me, because I've caught myself having that attitude before. It's so easy to let yourself slip into the "Without me, this run wouldn't even happen" mentality. Lately though, I've been really appreciating my healers. Without good healers, I'd be useless. I think this is especially true in ZA. Man, if I didn't have good healers for ZA, I'd be toast.
DPS are interchangable though, screw you guys.
Angus Dec 21st 2007 12:31PM
LOL
Thanks.
Should I not drop WF, SoE, and not give you Unleashed Rage? ;)
Not all DPS is the same. Some of us are all about making your life better.
As for the article, great stuff. One of the better things. Don't have a warrior, but I understand the mindset. I have to change tactics in instances from soloing with my tankadin. Changing to a different mindset completely is something that people need to understand. If they don't work on that they aren't as good in another role when the time comes.
Callandra Dec 21st 2007 11:36AM
I'm a huge fan of 5 35 21 to pickup conc blow. You still get precision but you lose some AP in the form of rampage (which is good for 1 talent point, but lackluster imo compared to the utility of conc. blow) and imp. zerker stance.
When I ran Kara as the OT, I tanked more than I DPS'd, as was the case in most 5-man runs that I did, so this build was most effective for that. (Still a very effective Heroic build w/Last STand)
There are a couple of good ways to learn how to tank. Some of the best ways are to run with the same group, time after time while tanking. You learn the capabilities of this specific group makeup very well and then can apply what you learn to varying combos. Guildies are a great source of this. Case and point my Mage/Druid/Rogue/Paladin/War heroic group. Awesome fun, learned lots.
The other good way, is to run with another skilled tank and pay attention to how they pull. How they call out CC, what they taunt and when etc,.
Some of my most memorable moments are in heroics. Example, by letting the mob go AFTER the ice mage (while slowed) and slowly beating on them you can save your healer time/mana to spot heal. If they ever got too close my mage aggro was an easy taunt/conc blow away.
Saved the healers some mana and prevented a freak wipe from occuring.
Callandra Dec 21st 2007 11:37AM
*And here I was thinking the heresy was wielding King's Defender MH
Callandra Dec 21st 2007 11:48AM
Unless of course thats the tank, which it very well may be....Its hard to see a shield from here...
thunder Dec 21st 2007 12:25PM
azure shield of the coldara, devilshark cape, kings defender, and the often used to tank epic shoulders out of heroic sethekk.
Thats a typical tank. the average guild (where non-raiding included) is in the 'we have prince on farm, nightbane is hopeful next week' stage.
Matthew Rossi Dec 21st 2007 12:56PM
Yeah, the tank is the undead, the offtank (me) is the cow behind him.
Tychon Dec 21st 2007 11:51AM
I really don't see the point of your build callandra, you would be medeocre dps, and a medeocre tank. Wouldn't you want to be good at atleast 1 thing tanking or dps? Being OT threat generation shouldn't be as important since everyone else will be attacking your MTs target letting you get a good 30-60 seconds to build threat, then when it comes to the boss you can use your bloodthrist and rampage abilities being one of the most valuable assests to the raid. top dps, and good OT.
Callandra Dec 21st 2007 12:23PM
I never felt the loss of a few of those DPS talents as too much to bear. Especially solo-play with rampage is frustruating.
The idea was to be able to tank heroics (last stand/concblow) and be able to still DPS in Karazhan, which I didn't successfully. I didn't top the meters, but I did do very well.
Vort Dec 21st 2007 11:51AM
I liked the part about training your self to think on the fly and mix things us. As a PvP warrior, I catch myself being way to repetitive, basically stuck in the; Charge + Hamstring + MS + WW, cycle.
In the heat of things I'm still finding it hard to mix up my abilities, like shouts (thought I'm getting better at thoes), and I completly ingnore Defence stance. I know spell reflect could have saved my butt a few times.
Also, trinkets I don't think I even remember I have them when I'm in the heat of battle.
(btw I'm writing this as relativly new 70 Warrior)
I've got a ton more BG and arena situation questions but I'll save thoes for a column that touches on PvP Warriors.
Epoc Dec 21st 2007 11:51AM
I would suggest this as on Fury/Prot hybrid. Properly geared (dpsT4-heroics-and yes even some blues) you still get 600+ dps in TK25 and can take a hit pretty damn well with the same tank gear lvl (kara non Tier-heroics-and a few good blues).
I sought out several months ago to find a good build for this and found it here. with the talent changes some points where shifted but the effect is still the same
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZVV0VxxRVzZcEuoh0z
this is my current dps gear set although I've been spec'd prot to help out with ZA. Even in my prot spec I want to tweak and move the 3 points from imp sunder to imp shield wall and fill out toughness
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-talents.xml?r=Thrall&n=Hellfury
thinice Dec 21st 2007 11:55AM
Very enlightening. I suffer from the same issues as well, I take loss of aggro too personally and I run after every 'loss' regardless of who it's going after - only to have our hunter freeze it in place - I forget that other characters can handle those situations.
I think some of it is that tanks feel inferior sometimes because they dont feel like they're contributing to the killing (no DPS); and therefore aren't "needed" in a group sometimes, e.g.: hunters and locks can have their demons/pets tank and druids have bear form. So it's a hard complex to overcome.
Epoc Dec 21st 2007 11:58AM
would also like to add with defiance now giving expertise and combining that with weapon mastery (now fury tree) giving 2% less chance to dodge precision can be bypassed in the hybrid spec. even if you only have 151 +hit you do the above stated dps
JediGadget Dec 21st 2007 12:15PM
I never understood the fascination with warriors. I just couldn't understand why anyone would want to play such a boring class. I mean, come on, *all* you do is beat on things. That's it, end of story...or so I thought.
I have one character of each class, all Horde, all female (yes, I'm a girl IRL, OH NOEZ! ALERT TEH INTARWEBS!) and I felt I could never really grasp a warrior. They were just too boring. My first class was a shaman, I love her to death, but, I never felt she was really good as a melee class. I leveled her resto (with friends) and then, recently, decided to go enhancement with her. I've got her most of the Season 1 gear and she's a fairly decent little DPSer, but still very much a glass cannon.
Anyway, I have several characters over level 60, including 2 level 70s (shaman and mage, warlock and druid almost there). Being enhancement made me start to wonder about what it would be like to fight and never run out of mana. I have a friend that has a level 70 warrior, and watching him made me think about my poor little abandoned level 30 tauren warrior, Ayashe (little one).
So, I started playing her again. One of the reasons I stopped playing with her was because I *hated* having to generate rage. Granted, this was way way way back before they tweaked the warriors to make things a bit smoother. I don't think I'd played my warrior for at least a year. So, I was fairly reluctant. However, a friend had just started leveling a holy priest and asked if I wouldn't mind being his meat sheild, so I said Ok.
OH. MY. GOD. She is so much fun to play! I'm a total warrior-noob, but I'm having fun anyway. My level 70 warrior friend was kind enough to sit down and help me with my gear and specc so I'm doing fairly well now (my stuff was *really* screwy before, which probably had a lot to do with why I hated my warrior).
I know, this is a long post, sorry :P I just wanted to say that I have become totally re-inspired (WoW has been getting slightly stale lately) and almost obsessed with my wee lil warrior. She's just amazing. Every day I learn more and more about what they can do. It's *not* *just* bashing on things. You get to bash them, insult them, scream at them, control them, make them soil themselves and not having to be restricted by how much mana you have, it's so freeing! It's great!!!
Even though I consider myself a fairly experienced player, playing a warrior is so new I may as well have bought WoW yesterday. It's amazing and I can't wait to level her and learn more. She's currently level 35, and rising quickly thanks to the new leveling stuff. I will continue to read Matthew Rossi's warrior posts with great interest so I can be the best warrior I can be :D Oh, and I'm sure I'll have tons of questions too :D
While I'm still too little to use a lot of the advice in your columns, they're good things to know for the future. Now I just have to get my action bars comfortable and I think I'll be good to go.
Thank you Matthew Rossi!
Dave Dec 21st 2007 12:29PM
I definitely don't agree with your build and it's utility.
You're not very useful as DPS with it, especially if you're going to be going and dual-wield DPS'ing. DW is a pretty gear AND talent specific build that really doesn't work well anymore. Further, you're kinda diluting the utility of a DPS warrior by not taking the shout improvements. Own up to the idea that you're NOT going to be anywhere near the tops of the DPS charts. The rogues, mages, warlocks and hunters should all out damage you by a long shot, even on the fights like Aran where you're not going to need to tank at all in the slightest. Even more troubling, is the fact that on the fights where you're taking, you're not getting enough of the good talents to make your tanking very good. You can live without a lot of the stuff in the prot tree honestly, but I think any serious tanking build (if you're building with tanking at least half the time on a regular basis) needs to go at least to conc blow.
I personally think all the rage use-reducing talents are MUCH more worth taking than the rage generating ones.
If you're going to do Fury + Prot tanking, i think a build like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZVV0VxxRVzZcEuoh0z
is a much smarter choice as far as everything goes. You get a lot of utility out of powerful shouts (and keep in mind that Demo Shout is one of your best tanking tools when you're not full prot) that your full prot warriors won't have. You'll boost your DPS classes more, or you can keep the health of your squishies higher, depending on what you need at the time. Typically your prot warrior will dump excess points into Arms, so the synergy with a full prot tank works well in this situation.
You're a team player after all, you should coordinate with your MT and take synergistic talents.
I like taking bloodrage over Anticipation, since you should have enough +defense on your gear in the first place so it's a totally useless talent when you're on DPS duty. more rage is always a good thing, and it lets you grab aggro a little quicker. Know the tank who doesn't get a sunder in before the mob is at %90 or less? yeah, that's the tank without bloodrage who's waiting to get rage to be able to sunder. Don't let it be you. I also like Improved Taunt (especially if you like to save the squishies) and spending less rage per sunder. Again, don't be the guy who takes 10 seconds to seriously start building threat.
I personally think Fury stinks these days as a warrior, especially when you try to do it with two weapons and I'd much much much rather do it with a huge 2H, preferably an epic crafted weapon. Increasing your offhand damage doesn't really impress me much either since you're still looking at a %20+ miss rate with it. For my money, you're better off spending your talent points being able to HIT the mobs, rather than bumping your wee tiny offhand damage (you are packing a fast offhand with tiny damage and maybe a decent proc right?). Precision is a must if you're dumping points into Fury. You get the benefit of being able to taunt better (remember that Taunt goes on %hit now) and you'll do more damage overall. You can't hurt what you can't hit after all.
Most of your +whatever when you get crit talents are somewhat useless in a raid environment. In theory, if you're the guy DPS'ing, you're not going to get hit and therefore you're not going to get crit. It's a shame you have to waste 5 points in Enrage, since you shouldn't ever proc it. Double so if you're the guy tanking, since your gear should have enough +def to never get a crit.
I personally take an arms-heavy OT non-prot build (works slightly better for Arena and PVP'ing than a fury does) but I was looking at something like this for being a utility OT/DPS combo.
Heraclea Dec 21st 2007 12:45PM
Historically, I have used some builds like this 5/42/14:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZVVzmxxoVuqof0t0h
and this DW PvP oriented "surprise" build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVVzmxxoVuVZfhtc0hz
whose chief value is breaking expectations about what I might be able to do.
The first build is IMO still a solid build for the newly minted level 70 warrior who wants to actually be able to kill stuff and farm relatively safely, but who may still be called on to tank 5-man instances. I prefer to take Toughness in Prot instead of the shield oriented abilities, because Toughness is on all the time.
The second build has not carried me to the heights of arena success, though. It remains playable in PvE, while surprising a few arena opponents who don't expect a dual wielding sword warrior to have Concussion Blow.
In Karazhan specifically, you will not miss Deep Wounds. Just about everything there is immune.
Milktub Dec 21st 2007 12:50PM
. If you establish a CC order, you have to trust your CC players to do their jobs. If the CC breaks, and it is the kind of CC that can be reapplied like Polymorph or a hunter trap, then let them reapply it.
That's something I'm trying to learn too. I think it's just something that's become ingrained from all those early levels of PuGing with CCers who simply didn't know how to handle their class. Now that I'm running with PuGs and guild runs that know their stuff, I have to get it into my head that they can indeed kite, reapply CC and so on.
Scelerat Dec 21st 2007 1:00PM
I don't know about all of my fellow squishies, but as for myself, when I pull aggro on a mob, be it with my mage or my rogue, I feel that that mob is therefore my responsibility, not the tanks. If I failed to control my own aggro and manage to peel it off the tank and it starts lookin' at me with that nasty shine of murder and death in its eye, then its my job to nuke/stun-lock the baddie before it can get to me or do any serious harm.
And sometimes, if the group is having a good enough run of the instance, my tanks will tell me that the sheep/sap target is mine to do with as I wish...and that just makes for a happy me and a burnt/bleeding corpse of a mob.
Besides, tanking as a rogue is just all manner of fun...here's lookin' at you, Netherspite.