Raid dungeons for everyone?
by John Himes 
Jan 3rd 2008 at 4:30PM
Prior to the expansion, I didn't have a lot of opportunities to raid and a similar idea occurred to me. At the time I thought it would be pretty cool if there was a quest for each major raid dungeon that gave the player the chance to explore it without being able to engage in combat with any of the creatures. For instance, at the end of a lengthy quest line throughout Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding zones, you're finally tasked with a reconnaissance mission into the heart of Ragnaros's lair. You'd be able to enter the zone just like normal, but when you arrived inside the Core, you'd be wearing a non-removable Dark Iron dwarf costume. All the creatures would be friendly to you and you could talk to them as you made your way through the dungeon, completing the requirements of your quest. (Check out the quest "Who Are They?" for an example of what I'm talking about.) Perhaps you'd have to deliver a message to one of the bosses or simply visit certain locations in the dungeon, but the quest would have a definite objective and ending. If you chose not to complete the quest, you could keep it in your log and continually explore the zone.
I think this would be an interesting way of introducing the dungeon to non-raiders, especially if it was included as the last step in the quest line that allowed a player to get attuned or keyed to the zone. Of course, experiencing a dungeon is one of the rewards for progressing through its content, but in this sort of scenario, it would be simple to block off parts of the experience for the purposes of the quest. For instance, summoned bosses and those behind locked doors would both be inaccessible to players on this sort of quest, leaving plenty to be experienced later if the player chose to tackle the content in a raid group.
What do you think about this idea? Would you like to see this feature implemented or would you prefer to keep the experience of raid dungeons for those that actually progress through the content?
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
ninjasuperspy Jan 3rd 2008 4:36PM
That would be fun. And certainly easier than retuning all the "endgame" dungeons and loot to make several different endgame paths, which is what I'd imagine the other option would be. I hate that MC/ZG/AQ are never going to be seen, let alone Strat/Scholo.
Omegi Jan 3rd 2008 4:39PM
Why not just another quest that let you be one of the "trash" mobs in there where you are exploring the dungeon as one of the enemy?
This way you could be introduced to a more epic story line as a single player all while learning the layout of the dungeon if you wanted to be a raider later on.
Even a short in-game movie of the dungeon and its history would be great. That way we can stop relying on youtube to show us those dungeons that we may not get to in time for the expansion.
Matthew Jan 3rd 2008 4:38PM
This is actually a pretty old suggestion, but nonetheless a good one. I think Blizz has said that they intend to let more players experience the lore, and that recycling Kael'thas into the five-man dungeon in the Sunwell Plateau is a first step for this.
Still, it'd be nice to have a significantly nerfed version of the 25-man dungeons that could be, say, five-manned for no loot. Heck, even make there be a gold fee to enter if they wanted to make it a cash sink. I know I would like to experience the Black Temple or something like that, but I've got a job and social commitments and I don't think I'll ever be a raider.
I know people are going to say that hardcore content is for the hardcore players, but no one really loses by allowing more people to experience what Blizzard puts so much effort into making.
icer Jan 3rd 2008 4:43PM
strat and scholo will b visited for the epic land mount quest for pallys and locs but i dough that MC and BWL will ever b visited again except for old time sake memories
csarcops Jan 3rd 2008 4:43PM
I think it's a spectacular idea. There are so many dungeons I'd love to see, places like Molten Core and Naxx and Onyxia's Lair, I don't necessarily need any gear from there but I want so badly to at least see the inside. Providing a quest option like you have here would give people like me a chance to see this awesome content without all the pointless fighting and wiping.
Rich Jan 3rd 2008 4:44PM
Its not a bad idea.
Instead of no loot, you could just combine the loot tables from non-heroic 5 mans. That way you do get some vendor trash and coin but none of the epic gear.
Its a good way to let those of us who don't have the time to dedicate to raiding to see the instance and yet preserve the e-peens of the raiders.
icer Jan 3rd 2008 4:47PM
even add all the old instances a heroic mods with lvl adjustment for people that wanna do them, heck add badges to them
BartmanDK Jan 3rd 2008 4:50PM
I dont think this would work at all.. Just walking around looking at it wouldent really be that fun i think.. one of the great things about all the raiding and end-game stuff is that it is difficult and you need to work together with other people to get it done, and just walking around inside not being able to do anything wouldent be vary fun.. And if you then just lower the difficult lvl and the loot lvl it would still not be the same and you would still not be able to really experience the instance
Gimmlette Jan 3rd 2008 4:56PM
I remember this idea from some months ago. There was a discussion of making old dungeons with heroic settings just so they would be used again. "Tourist" or "heroic" mode would be other ways to open everything up. My guild is going to go after Onxyia just because it's there. My raid officer is the only person who has seen it and we're all curious. Having a "tourist" mode would let a bunch of us go in and get a better feel for the place before we run it. Plus, I think it would give more people just the spark they need to go in with a group and actually run the instance. No the drops easily get eclipsed by your first greens from Hellfire but that's not the point. It's there and a lot of us want to see it.
roger3 Jan 3rd 2008 4:56PM
Blizzard really should do two things:
1. Scale encounters to group size, you wanna take 40 people into Gruul's lair? Cool, he hits like a truck and you have less time. You only have 15? That's cool too, but he changes his loot table. Fewer epics.
2. Allow players to down-rank their levels. I would LOVE to be able to take my warrior along with my wife's lowbie hunter. As it is, we search for a group for 30 minutes, nobody wants to take two hunters (I play one too, because that way I can show her how to do stuff), she doesn't like playing w/o me around, so I hop on my warrior and solo the instances for her. The upshot is that she's got GREAT gear, but isn't left with any sense of challenge and is starting to out-level me. If I could drop my warrior down to level 30, we could accomplish so much more.
Philo Jan 3rd 2008 4:57PM
Personally, I *do* want to see end-game content, but being able to visit them without any risk wouldn't be worth it. It's awesome to see Lady Vashj, for instance, because to get to her, you have to raid hard and defeat her raid instance. Just being able to walk up to her wouldn't do much for me.
For instance, you can see Magtheridon in Blood Furnace... That's nifty, but it doesn't fulfill my desire to see him up close, fight him, and see him go down. Not at all.
Tereth Jan 3rd 2008 6:48PM
I think that's sort of the point. That glimpse of Mag in blood furnace made you only want to get to him/down him more right? This way people can still SEE the dungeons, and even if they can never experience the epic content, they still get a looksie. Who knows, maybe this would increase the crowd of raiders as more people see what can happen and want more.
Philo Jan 4th 2008 10:23AM
I would argue that it's not for lack of wanting that there isn't people raiding Vashj or Mag in droves... I don't think 'advertising' them would make more people raid those instances, nor would it satisfy people's desires to do these raids proper.
I *really* want to down Illidan... However, I don't see that happening before I hit level 80 and 5-man his ass. :)
scootle Jan 3rd 2008 5:02PM
the "disneyland" mode for any and all raid instances is not a new suggestion... it was on the forums many many times in the past. blizzard just chooses to make key lore elements available to raiders only... and thus ignores any such suggestions.
i don't know what else to say... raid or quit? that's the mmo mantra it seems.
rick gregory Jan 3rd 2008 5:00PM
I've always opposed the idea of having dungeons scaled so that, for example, 5 people could go kill Illidan in TBC. But the idea of having a disguise that let people wander around seems interesting. For people who just want to go inside and see the place it would be cool and it doesn't affect people who want to go in there and raid. Especially for content that most people won't actually raid anymore (Naxx, AQ, etc) my reaction is "why not?"
roger3 Jan 3rd 2008 5:08PM
But scaling the content is exactly how it works now for the first part of the PvE game. The progression is 5-mans -> Heroics (scaled 5-man) -> 10-mans -> 25-mans.
Personally, I think that content and design should be 'smart' enough to adapt to changing group sizes. The more content you open to people, the better. That doesn't mean you don't work for it, but the barriers between Solo, Small Group, Large Group & PvP playstyles are artificial and should be lowered.
rick gregory Jan 3rd 2008 5:43PM
Can't agree roger. I'm not going to get detailed since we just did this on another post here, but it makes little sense to have the evil overlord of all Outland killable by 5 people in quest greens or something.
The progression you outline is artificial... but it's reasonable. The 10 man raids are harder than 5s... you could dumb them down, but why? Why are people so opposed, in a massively multiplayer game, to actually getting groups together to go see content?
Rich Jan 3rd 2008 6:16PM
Because, you can't just get 25 people together and go see Illidan. You have to spend hours farming previous instances to get the gear to through the instances to see him.
rick gregory Jan 3rd 2008 6:34PM
Exactly, Rich. To go FIGHT Illidan, you need to be geared. That's seems consistent with him being this incredibly powerful figure.
What I like about the idea of this post is that people who can't or don't want to do that could still get inside the Black Temple and see it. Should they be able to fight him? I think not. It makes very little sense to have everything scaled for some guy and his 2 friends. After all.. if we go that way, why insist that they be level 70? What about people who don't want to have to level up? Why not let 5 level 60s? You can continue this to the point of absurdity and posit a handful of level 1s... :)
There are artificial limits throughout the game... you can't kill a level 20 toon if you're level 1... you can't enter the portal until 58... you can't Arena until 70 (aside from practice matchs), you can't BG until 10... etc etc.
And here's the thing - you don't NEED 25 to kill Illidan... you need to be attuned to the BT and that's it. I'm sure he'll be 10 manned or something when we're all level 80, just as Ony can be 3 manned now and we can 10 man Molten Core.
At the end of the day I just don't agree that your monthly feee gives you the *right* to do everything in the game... it just gives you that *opportunity*.
SimpleSurvival Jan 3rd 2008 5:33PM
Wandering right into BT and shaking Illidan's hand would prolly cheapen the experience of downing him.
But... At the same time, I doubt I'll ever get into BT and I'm sorta dissapointed that I may never see it (except maybe at lvl 90 when I'll solo him in cloth) I do think there should be something for us less than hardcore players...
I'm not asking to go toe to toe with Illidan... I just wanna see the inside, and I don't think I'll ever be hardcore enough to find my way into a 25man.
I'm not asking for a disguise to run around freely... Just give me 5man content for the 10man and maybe 10 or 15 man content for the 25man
Its OK that I'm not getting tier EQ... Its OK that the loot tables aren't all epics... I'd totally be happy with regurgitated blue from the original 70 5man instances... I wouldn't run for the loot... I'd run for the experience...
The hardcore can keep their loot... i just want the experience
It'd also be nice to see Old world content as more than just a Solo Test... There are plenty of dungeons all around the world... Raid bosses who didn't even get a christmas card...
Make Heroics outta em! recycle that content!
You can recycle the "kill x mob" formula ad nauseum, why not recycle your dungeons.