Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 newsRaid dungeons for everyone?
by John Himes 
Jan 3rd 2008 at 4:30PM
Prior to the expansion, I didn't have a lot of opportunities to raid and a similar idea occurred to me. At the time I thought it would be pretty cool if there was a quest for each major raid dungeon that gave the player the chance to explore it without being able to engage in combat with any of the creatures. For instance, at the end of a lengthy quest line throughout Blackrock Mountain and the surrounding zones, you're finally tasked with a reconnaissance mission into the heart of Ragnaros's lair. You'd be able to enter the zone just like normal, but when you arrived inside the Core, you'd be wearing a non-removable Dark Iron dwarf costume. All the creatures would be friendly to you and you could talk to them as you made your way through the dungeon, completing the requirements of your quest. (Check out the quest "Who Are They?" for an example of what I'm talking about.) Perhaps you'd have to deliver a message to one of the bosses or simply visit certain locations in the dungeon, but the quest would have a definite objective and ending. If you chose not to complete the quest, you could keep it in your log and continually explore the zone.
I think this would be an interesting way of introducing the dungeon to non-raiders, especially if it was included as the last step in the quest line that allowed a player to get attuned or keyed to the zone. Of course, experiencing a dungeon is one of the rewards for progressing through its content, but in this sort of scenario, it would be simple to block off parts of the experience for the purposes of the quest. For instance, summoned bosses and those behind locked doors would both be inaccessible to players on this sort of quest, leaving plenty to be experienced later if the player chose to tackle the content in a raid group.
What do you think about this idea? Would you like to see this feature implemented or would you prefer to keep the experience of raid dungeons for those that actually progress through the content?
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Ken Lydell Jan 3rd 2008 5:35PM
I don't think we need a dungeon EZ mode. On the contrary, I like the idea of scaling up difficulty and loot to match group composition. What we miss most, I suspect, are the dungeons we bypassed on the way to Outland.
Bibble Jan 3rd 2008 5:44PM
People raid and run instances for loot or some other kind of loot-oriented objective. Why anyone would want to go walk around MC just to "look around" is beyond me.
RaidOrg - http://raidorg.com - Helping World of Warcraft Guilds Manage Raids
Jack Jan 3rd 2008 5:50PM
I really like the exploring dungeons idea. I've always wished I could do that.
kenney Jan 3rd 2008 5:53PM
I think it is telling that nobody considers being able to watch the fights on youtube to be worth mentioning as a way to experience it. I think every step away from limiting the content to the hardcore probably cheapens the experience.
As it is now, the bar DOES get lowered incrementally- blizzard releases new content, and it is hard. A few months later, they adjust the difficulty down a notch, and throw in better items earlier in the game so that the fight is easier and encountered by people in better gear.
I am not in a hardcore guild that gets to see this exclusive content. In vanilla wow, we didn't have enough players, and our accomplishments were restricted to 20 manning onyxia and the first two bosses in molted core. Currently we only have 1 boss in SSC down, and I will confess that when a guild on my server started selling BT attunements, I considered purchasing one just for the tourist value. Still- our guild has gotten significantly better in the last year, and that carrot of meaningful accomplishment is what keeps us going.
Maybe some middle ground would be best- say, having some kind of tourist mode that opens up when the new release comes out (and the old raid instances are effectively dustbinned). I would have enjoyed seeing BWL or Naxx (I was lucky enough to tag along on a few AQ40s and MC clears)- but for me, there is a huge difference between seeing something and beating it. And the experience of beating something would be lessened if I had already seen it.
Ryan Jan 3rd 2008 6:38PM
Yes, it would be nice if all the content was opened up to everyone, but the way the game is currently designed something would have to be done to make raiding "worth it" per say if something like this was ever implemented.
Pre-BC you raided for A) best loot for both PvE-PvP and B) the experience. Post-BC you raid for A) PvE gear to better prepare for the next instance grind and B) the experience.
With the advent of Arena gear, that's one less reason to raid, you can be succesful in the PvP aspect of the game without needing to raid. So what's left? The experience of the end-game zones. There is no gear gaps in BC, the difference between t4 to t6 is laughable when compared to t1 to t3 (Another reason while arena tends to draw more players due to the more availability of the best items compared to the time sink needed to obtain them).
So raiders are left with the experience of the zones as the only reason for raiding. While it is great that first time you down illidan, only raiders progressed this far can understand the feeling of completing the currently available game and the realization that nothing new is coming for a while. When there's nothing of benfit once you have everything on farm status aside from gearing up to prepare for sunwell, things become old real quick, and the "fun" of raiding with your 24 other guild mates loses its luster after a while without anything new or challenging.
Open the zones up to anyone is a interesting proposal and if done right would be quite pleasing to anyone who asked for the change, I agree. But an over-hall of the raiding aspect in general would be needed to provide better rewards to those who decide to raid the hardest bosses then what is currently available, which once again is the experience of it, and the rewards of loot (which are being repeatedly diminished every arena season).
Carrie Jan 3rd 2008 6:41PM
I used to do this all the time with Mind Vision :D Anytime I'd get a new attunement done or a new place was opened I'd try to see how far I could get with MV.
I even got all the way to the Twin Emps' room in AQ40 with mind vision, it was totally cool to see the big eye floating there. I was sad that I couldn't MV through the last hallway to C'thun's room; since the farthest I've ever been in AQ40 was the Bug Trio's room (never killed them) I probably will never get to see him or his room.
Dunno if it's still possible to do this anymore since they changed the targeting around a bit. I'll have to try it in Zul'Aman. Either way, there's always Elixir of Dream Vision I guess :P
SimpleSurvival Jan 3rd 2008 6:49PM
How bout a compromise....
Heroic Raid Instances! and Scaled back versions
Give the hardcore what they want... something difficult
and give us what we want... something challenging but at least in our reach if we are good enough...
Bibble Jan 3rd 2008 7:11PM
They alread did that. It's called Zul'Aman. If you're that good, you get the instance's timed bonuses.
Dave Jan 3rd 2008 7:33PM
I think this is kinda stupid compared to doing something actually useful like making raids scale from 10 40, so every size of raiding person can enjoy the content at their own pace and group size.
The real hindrance to everyone enjoying raid encounters is really really simple when you look at it:
Time vs reward.
Too many people can't get a 25-man group together on a regular basis, so time becomes a huge factor. Further complicating things, a 25-man raid doesn't drop a lot of loot comparatively for the size of the group. A full run of Gruul will net your 25 member group 7 or 8 drops. This means that well over half of your entire raid will get absolutely nothing out of it, except for a pretty decent repair bill while you learn the encounter. You could run Gruul's once a week for a month, and see absolutely nothing at all. After that month, only 8 people in your entire guild will have their T4 tokens for a particular slot, which means that even IF you can manage to keep the exact same group together for every single attempt, you're going to need to run the thing for *3* months. For one piece, in one slot. Good luck!
Meanwhile, the Arena has made a laughingstock of the raid situation. Even if you're mediocre, you can get 3 pieces of the top-end arena gear in 3 months. (i guess it's more time if you're bad at the arena, but it's still probably better than what you're going to see from raids).
This game is about loot. Always has been, always will be. Until Blizzard corrects the problem of raids being way too time consuming for the rewards compared to the rest of the game, the same old problems will continue to happen.
thebvp Jan 3rd 2008 7:51PM
While I understand the need hardcore raiders have to flex their epeens (I was one), how does it not seem to make good business sense to structure your MMO so that only very small portion of your gaming base can experience the pinnacle of the gaming experience you’re creating?
I remember, back in the Naxx days, feeling just a bit uncertain that I experiencing something that only 120 or so people in my “gaming community” (dunemaul/horde) were able to enjoy. It just didn’t sit well with me. How much time and money did Blizzard dedicate to the instance, how much did they hype did they put out, and how many people got to actually see Kel’Thuzad dead (again), let alone, just step inside the place?
Now that I’m an old, jaded, burnt out raider who casually pvps, it doesn’t seem like much has changed. The raids are smaller, but the time commitment is the same. I don’t know how much our server population has changed since then, but the percentage of community in those places might actually be smaller than it was with Naxx.
I’m a firm believer that the customer is not always right, but I also think that the average player ought to have access to the bulk of gaming material in an MMO, especially when lore is involved. While I think there should always be a niche for the hard core base, remember that the material they experience is largely made possible by all the casuals that pay their monthly fees. Again, how much time and money is spent developing new content and how proportional is that to the player base? When I in Naxx, sometimes I wondered if I would be there if there weren’t 9 others in AV trying to grind out an Unstoppable Force.
I think that everyone ought to be able to experience the majority of the game in some form or another. They don’t have to experience it in the same way or receive the same rewards for doing so, but I think that with a certain amount of effort, everyone ought to be able to go to toe with Illidan after some (significant) effort and raiding does not provide the proper venue for this. It seems grossly unfair to wave a proverbial carrot in front of someone, extract potentially hundreds of dollars from them over the course of several years, and then take that carrot away so a few people that play the game more than they work can feel comfortable about their egos.
theRaptor Jan 3rd 2008 8:18PM
Typical "all raiders are no lifers who play 24/7" rot. Given how long TBC has been out casual guilds that raid once a week are progressed through TK and SSC. The hardcore raiders just did it quicker, because they put in more hours a week. If you aren't there after a year of raiding, it just means your guild is terrible.
And any casual guild can go back and experience AQ40/Naxx in a lesser form. But not many people do because they still require some know how, and most of the loot isn't good enough. Loot matters, I seriously doubt many people would go and visit high end dungeons that didn't give them the same loot. But honestly if you can't blow through most pre-TBC content with 30-40 70's you are terrible and should just uninstall WoW.
Martanor Jan 3rd 2008 8:15PM
Perhaps you could make a sort of "tourist bombing-run" for the outdoor-dungeons. That way it would be both logical (because the bosses and the mobs can't actually reach you). And if you're wearing some special quest-goggles you can still see them in detail.
turkeyspit Jan 3rd 2008 8:23PM
Honestly, scaling is something this game needs in a big way. I don't think you need to scale the 40 man raids to the point where it can be done with 5-man, but allow the 40 man raids to scale to 10 man (still puggable) with reduced loot tables.
That way people who just want to kill Onyxia "for the fun" can do it, without anyone whining over easy loot runs.
I have 2 LV 70's gearing up for Kara, but I can forget about ever seeing the inside of Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, AQ20/40, Zul'Gruub, etc etc etc.
theRaptor Jan 3rd 2008 8:28PM
You can five man most of those with ease. My guildies and I did a silly ZG run before xmas, we never had more then nine people, and had five for the last few bosses. We only didn't kill Hakkar because we lacked a second tank, and people were starting to get tired. People can 2-3 man many other encounters with enough time. People two man onyxia all the time, it just takes a long time. If you can't run in their with your Kara group and drop her in ten minutes you probably aren't going to see much past opera in Karazhan.
thebvp Jan 3rd 2008 9:27PM
#30: I'm not saying that at all.
First, the "raid grind" still exists. It's not like what it was, but it's still there. See the gold buying blog posted a few days ago for reasons why people do it. Even if you raid only one day a week, you have to spend a significant amount of time farming to support your weekly "addiction."
Second, I don't think any one player should have exclusive access to content over another based on their lifestyle. We all play the same game for the same monthly fee. I don't think a casual who has played since launch ought to be denied access to the most interesting, key content in the game. These players are every bit as "loyal" to the game and enjoy it just as much as any hard core raider. My father, for example, is a 56 year old man who has played since day 1. His warlock is level 64 now, loves the game thoroughly, and has every "right" (if anyone has one) to experience the most critical aspects of lore as anyone else. However, I don't think that
Third: he needs or even wants to experience it in the same way as someone who consistently raids. In my own case, I don't want to be sucked up into another guild where I don't know anyone just so I can see the insides of the Black Temple. Rewarding players for playing the game more is fine by me, but
Fourth: There is probably a disparity between the cost/value return of what casuals pay and what hard core raiders pay. This one is a bit hard to explain. Let's take my father, for example- he's paid just as much money to play the game as "hard core player X." For every one "X" out there, there are 9 like my dad, but for every 9 dollars that players such as my father pay, only 1 is actually spent on them (if that). The rest is spent keeping the X minority happy.
Again, the numbers are purely for illustration. I don't know how money it actually took to design something like Naxxramus, but I am pretty sure it took a hell of lot of cash to make something like that and what percentage of the player base got to see it at its fullest?
Fifth: It doesn't seem to make any sense to me why Blizzard would refuse to rework old raid instances such as MC and BWL. The old "nostalgia" argument just doesn't fly. It would be an inexpensive way for Blizzard to recycle old content so that everyone could see it (which is allegedly the mantra they have these days) while not being a waste of their time. I'm sure old raiders and casuals alike would love to revisit those places. Blizzard could make a "classic" mode, even, in addition to a "classic" mode for AV. Maybe even allow us to unlock a pre-1.6 option with presets so we could experience AV in full valor and arcanite reapers. =)
Ametrine Jan 4th 2008 12:10AM
I like the disguised/recon idea you mentioned, and having it be part of a quest-chain that could lead to being attuned to the dungeon so you could actually fight there would be an awesome bonus.
Deftek Jan 15th 2008 12:54PM
They would have to make it so it wouldn't be unfair. The instance must be "beneath you" somehow, otherwise, you would have players scouting out content and practicing strategy without cost. They should never allow a level 70 to scout out a level 70 instance.
So lets take Molten Core. Once you are level 70, they should allow you to go there, and not just as a "tourist". As a 5-man group. Scale it down so every mob is level 50 or even level 40. That way, you can play the fights. This of course isn't going to be exactly like the real thing, because you really need 40 people to simulate the fights correctly, but at least you can then say that you have seen all the "old" bosses in the game.
Zarzuur Jan 4th 2008 6:47AM
Converting some old unused dungeons for questing sounds interesting, and all the questers could go into the same instance number as if it was a new zone.
It could only be done with a few places though, otherwise the "in disguise" premise would get repetitive .. which would still leave the overall problem of having empty older dungeons.
thunder Jan 4th 2008 8:55AM
Visitation mode is set post expansion as dungeons dont scale... 4man Ony IMO
Heike Jan 4th 2008 10:55AM
The main problem I see with this suggestion is not so much the suggestion itself as a feeling that the people asking for 'tourist' ability aren't going to really get what they're looking for.
Yes, some raid zones are really cool to look at when you first enter them. Heck, I remember how overwhelmed I was by my first sight of some of the *5* mans, like Slave Pens and Underbog. They were (and still all, although familiarity makes me forget to notice after a while) just beautifully designed from a visual standpoint.
But in 90% of the cases, it's not the layout of the dungeon or the look of the rooms that's what makes raiding cool. It's the intricacies of the actual fights. Gruul? It looks like a big cave. The Eye? I kinda think that the 5 man Tempest Keep instances give you the same feeling - and possibly better designed. I could see a case made for SSC though. I might just be biased to the naga-instances, though :)
And lets not even talk about old world raids. Onyxia? Big cave. MC? Series of big caves. AQ20? Sand. AQ40. More caves. Ok, tunnels. Same diff :p BWL? Woot. NOT A CAVE! But also not visually that impressive, you're talking inside of castle with no decorations.
Now, the *fights* in some of these cases were really fun and cool and there was a lot to keep track of. But the actual look and feel of the places were meh.
Mmmm, I think I'd also make a case that Kara is visually really awesome, at least the first half, and I could see people wanting to tour that.
And I love way ZG and ZA look, but honestly - if you zone in and see the entrance, you've pretty much seen 90% of the whole thing.