Breakfast Topic: Quitting battlegrounds
by Amanda Miller 
Jan 6th 2008 at 8:04AM
Why are so many avid battlegrounders boycotting the queues? The most popular battleground that is off-limits is Alterac Valley, and many are getting fed up with the afk'ers and Blizzard's attempts to solve the problem they create.
In fact, ever since the dynamics of AV changed in patch 2.3, some people have been longing for the honor grind to return. Queue, run north/south for 10 minutes, gain much honor. Not everyone is enjoying the actual PvP action they're seeing. The recently explained honor calculations have also been causing controversy, especially regarding holiday weekends.
At the same time, many battleground regulars are becoming annoyed with the increased population of players new to the grounds popping in, either for arena season one gear, or for the daily battleground quests. Some are even spewing their opinions on the subject rampantly in /bg chat, making the experience less fun for everyone.
How much time do you, or have you, devote to battlegrounding? How are you feeling about battlegrounds these days?
Filed under: PvP, Breakfast Topics, Battlegrounds
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
niko Jan 6th 2008 8:38AM
I'll chime in and say that I'm saving my time with PvP until I hit 70 on my main. It's a shame I'm going to have to do the PvP grind for S1 welfare epics just so I can try and do PvE endgame instances, but I guess that's all there is to do.
I used to queue for BG's back when the game was new to me... just to do something different. Once I could join AV, I was majorly impressed with how much better a PvP experience I had with that map than any of the others. However, with all good things, they are done in moderation. Realizing I have to do an AV grind in order to get enough honor to buy Arena epics takes all the fun out of it.
Hoping for a more enjoyable experience,
niko
Florida Salty Dog Jan 6th 2008 9:12AM
I am Horde on Stormreaver. When I queue for an AV, it is always 45-60 mins. Everyone complains because of the long wait. They say that "the Alliance are cry babies", "Alliance can't play so they boycott", "Alliance's mommies won't let them play".
For me it seems like a lot PVP'rs want honor grinding on easy mode. Grinding honor, like all other loot grinding, is a process, a process that demands perseverance.
Pappagallo Jan 6th 2008 10:24AM
My advice would be to start honour grinding at 69, when pretty much everyone has much the same stuff. The gear differential at 70 will see you spending a lot of your time getting owned if you don't walk into it with an S1 set.
Sean Jan 6th 2008 10:25PM
I don't understand. the PvE instances were designed before S1 arena gear was available, so why is grinding PvP "All there is to do?"
Run the quest chains for their rewards, run the instances for drops, hit up the AH to fill in the gaps (you'll have plenty of gold)
I hate the BGs and plan on hitting Heroics without one scrap of PvP gear on.
fealubryne Jan 6th 2008 9:09AM
I'm getting more than a little tired of Alliance deciding that just because they can't pull it together and win BGs, they're going to sit around and boycott them and whine about it. That makes complete sense -- Blizzard will definitely see them and decide to let them auto-win, because apparently they won't suck it up and do it themselves.
At the same point, I'm tired of Horde constantly complaining about this. We know already! Call them as many names as you like, but that won't get them back into BGs if they're set on their "we can't do this, we quit!" attitudes. No point in beating the dead horse -- it's old now. Really old.
But it would seem I'm one of the few who feels this way, as the "boycott" (can you really call it that if it's not going to change anything?) seems to be working and people are going full-out to complain about it.
Mel Jan 6th 2008 12:27PM
Quote: they're going to sit around and boycott them and whine aout it
Well, it DID work for Horde. *shrugs*
Sean Riley Jan 6th 2008 6:57PM
The weirdest thing is, at least in my Battlegroup, is that the Alliance are winning way, way more often these days.
The Horde seem a lot weaker.
Elmo Jan 6th 2008 9:09AM
I just farm those BG's to get that shiny S1 gear.
don't ever play one for fun
LFD Jan 6th 2008 12:48PM
I got my 2 pieces of S1 armor and the dps caster mace and I think I'm done. I wanted to grab 2 more accessories for my shadow priest but AV has become so frustrating since 2.3 on the Alliance side that I just don't know what to do anymore. The other BGs don't give out great honor and I don't run heroics or raid so I have no choice but to run AV if I want decent gear.
It would be a hell of a lot more fun if most knew what the F they were doing in there but no one listens. I try to be supportive but when you see 1 person defending IB gy, no one defending the towers and people dismounting 50 yds in front of the FW gy flag, it just makes you want to pull your hair out. I wish I could will 39 other people to do what you're supposed to do to win, but I can't.
Memzer Jan 6th 2008 9:15AM
The only reason I step foot into a battleground these days is to grind the arena season one gear for my alt characters so they can move onto Arena. This pretty much sums up the feelings of the battlegrounds for most people in my guilds as well. Battlegrounds are no longer fun, they're not about PvP, they're simply about maximising your Honor/Hour in an attempt to get enough gear to last longer than two seconds in an Arena match.
There are several reasons for the feelings, and I guess it depends on your battlegroup. As an Alliance in Bloodlust the current win-loss ratio for AV is somewhere around the 7-93% mark in the hordes favour. In the other battlegrounds the win-loss ratio is actually about even between the Alliance and Horde when you're both PUGs. Unfortunately 9/10 games you're facing an extremely over geared organised group and they simply stomp your group into the ground. Recently a guild mate lost 32 EOTS games in a row to organised groups before giving up completely on the battleground.
So what's it like in an organised group? Well it turns out that organised groups [of both factions] don't like to fight other organised groups, it decreases the magical honor/hour. Instead when an organised group enters the battleground they have their leader stay out of the battleground and ask the group members whether or not they're fighting an org or a pug. If it's an org, they simply queue the group up for a different battleground, have everybody switch as soon as it pops up and then repeat the process until they're guaranteed a pug. Meanwhile the poor people queuing for pugs are joining battlegrounds that have already been half-finished because the org group left it. Honestly it feels like cheating playing in most organised groups, with 250-300 resilience organised groups your opponents didn't have a chance to begin with.
So in the end Battleground PvP these days is:
Alterac Valley: 64 honor for a loss, going to loose it; avoid it.
EOTS: 180 honor for a win, 5 minute games; join an org and farm it.
AB: 200 honor for a win, games can take a while; Organise EOTS, fallback to AB if fighting an org.
WSG: 140 honor for a win, games can take a while; Organise EOTS, fallback to WSG if fighting an org.
* Which battlegrounds you queue for is obviously dependant on your battelgroup.
mk30 Jan 6th 2008 11:40AM
all i can say is that horde lost in AV about 99% of the time for over two years and never pulled stunts like this. all of a sudden the mechanics change a bit and here we are just a few months later with allies across battlegroups refusing to play.
While many allies now make extensive forum posts about chokeholds on the map and archers (things that the horde used to complain about for ages and also things that didn't actually change with 2.3), imo the main thing that changed was the ability to report afk'ers. previously demoralized horde who were so beaten down that 10+ ppl afk'd every bg were now newly inspired to try and win. maybe the allies should use the afk tools at their disposal and try to play instead of acting like the entitled ez-mode players horde assumes them to be and boycotting.
on my home server of malfurion current q times for AV are 45+ mins. unfortunately in our battlegroup horde consistently loses every bg except AV 95% of the time, so if we have any chance of winning with a pug, av is pretty much the only choice. but even with that you don't see us boycotting AB, etc.
Thander Jan 6th 2008 1:45PM
@9 AFK reporting doesn't remove them from the battleground so they still use up those slots. If you ask the average person in a bg, the afk reporting is not enough because those botters are still not helping out the team. Preventing them from getting honor doesn't make them go away.
And it really depends on the battleground as well. On Whirlwind, horde wins everything except AV. Allies love this cause they get a nice honor grind but Horde gets their marks faster.
Memzer Jan 7th 2008 2:10AM
There is no real boycott going on in Alterac Valley. The problem is simply that the battlegrounds are no longer fun and in the battelgroups where (for whatever the reason) one faction is being dominated by the other faction there is no longer a decent return of honor/hour.
Prior to the recent battleground changes the difference in honor gain between a loss and a win was around 200 honor points, with both the winner and looser walking out with about 300 honor for the 30-45 minutes they spent in the match. With the recent changes however the winning side is exiting the match with around 5-600 points and the looser is exiting with 0-100 points. So for the side which is consistently loosing AV this results in [if you're lucky] at most about 200 honor per hour played.
Now compare this with the honor gain which is capable from organised AB or EOTS. Most of the organised groups forming on my realm [Frostmourne, Bloodlust] aim to have people with at least 200 resilience, however you see 300+ resilience groups forming quite often. These groups through queuing and re-queuing can pretty well ensure that they're only going to fight disorganised groups who pose minimal to no resistance resulting in a match turnaround time of around ten minutes and an award of around 180 honor. This equates to about 800 honor per hour played, and depending on the number of other organised groups in the pool, whether or not it's the battleground weekend, etc., I've personally pulled over 2000 honor per hour through organised groups.
Regarding the level of 'fun' from a battleground; as any person from the Alliance on Bloodlust or Stormstrike will tell you, trying to organise the alliance into some semblance of cohesive offensive and defensive force is like bashing your head against a brick wall. Some people want to rush galv, some people want to rush RH, others want to get IB GY and there's no way you can convince any of them to agree upon a strategy. Any attempt to ask people to defend SH/Balinda is abhorred and viewed as an attempt to force a turtle. Regardless of the strategy taken anyway, the fact is that most games are decided by reinforcement depletion rather than actually defeating the opposing side's general.
Then you have to consider the behaviour/conduct of those people in the battleground. The AFK reporting system serves as no detriment to a person who has actually AFKed on a loosing side who is there simply for a badge. All they have to do is engage a mob before the match finishes and they get their badge - they were likely to get little to no honor anyway so the loss in net honor to these people doesn't mean anything. Then you have the people who like to flame others for their strategy, any wrong moves they've made, how much their faction sucks, etc, etc, etc...
Alterac Valley is just not worth it for battlegroups where one side dominates. Organised groups are easier [in fact as I said they feel like cheating], you don't need to put up with AFKers or Flamers, and their rewards are far, far greater than a PUG AV.
jd Jan 6th 2008 9:21AM
For some reason, Horde in the Ruin BG have figured out how to win every BG except AV (which we usually cap SH, IW and get stuck capping SP while nobody plays defense = 188-209 honor per game). As a result, I pretty much only run AV's with a premade from Magtheridon. There's usually one going 24/7 and you can't beat 5k honor/hour.
I play other BG's for fun occasionally but for the best honor/hour AV is by far the highest. A premade running any BG can gain good honor/hour but AB, WSG, and EOTS require more teamwork (as you pretty much have to 5-cap AB, hold 4 towers + run flag in EOTS, etc...), not to mention there is very little chance of running into another premade with AV.
As for the holiday weekends, it is disappointing how little extra honor is gained, it's almost not worth it for the honor/hr unless you have a premade to run that BG.
Ian Jan 6th 2008 9:38AM
I have to say that I am a little annoyed by the increase in n00bs to the BGs, but thats something that always has been, and always will be, not only in the battlegrounds, but all over WoW. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they listened to atleast some of the strategy from some of the more experienced bg-ers, but a lot of the people who are just there for the daily don't really do much, and it's pretty easy to notice. they stand around one node or flag (depending where you are) and after about 10-15 minutes they start complaining that everyone else is horrible players and that the match should be over already. Over the holidays i've had to keep my BG chat off because of much stupidity being spat out, and a lot of those people who just wont shut up about how bad everyone else is doing. Honestly, if you're going to be a whiny little ---- like that, stick to your raiding guilds, they dont seem to mind people whining so much.
As for the Honor...meh im not too worried. I do the PvP for the pvp not the products. Sure i do have most of the season one pvp gear, but i do BG quite a bit and that's simply because i enjoy it. I havn't gone into the arena's yet though...just waiting on a friend of mine to ding 70.
Zechleton Jan 6th 2008 11:03AM
People still consider AV to be PvP? It's more like a 40man raid that happens to have the opposing faction in it and the first one to down the last boss wins.
George M. Jan 6th 2008 9:54AM
Yes there are lots of new people in BG's. I think its great. You have to be on top of things all the time now if you want to win. Thankfully I still have my old PvP rank over my head, Knight-Captain, so I can attest I NEVER WANT OLD HONOR GRIND TO RETURN.
Eventually these new player will learn to defend, and not pull before the Warmasters are dead, I hope the next patch reinforces this notion when they have the stacking buff.
Deuce Jan 6th 2008 9:55AM
The battleground honor system is broken and all attempts to fix it just make it worse. There are a couple of obvious flaws to the "IDEA" of battlegrounds and their rewards.
Flaw one - Learning curve... PvP is not a requirement for leveling, yet with NO PvP skills you can queue for BG... And then face off against PvP pros (With much better gear) and have a horrible experience... Strategy is a huge thing and there is no in game mechanism to help with strategy (I dont know how this would work but all we got is chat and a map)
Flaw two - Welfare Items (IE why most people BG)... Not just epics, but at every level there is some item for most classes (Physical DPS espcially) that "seem" so easy to get by BGing... Why is there no level 19 twink items from questing, crafting(BOP) or Rep? True there are rewards and drops from instancing, but in all level brackets there are many items for most classes that have no equivilant(low level jewelery).
Flaw three - Season one items now buyable with honor makes most tier 4 equivilant seem too expensive - most players would rather Farm AV for 8 hours than spend 1000g (more or less) on a similar BOE item or run heroics for Primal nether etc...
Flaw four - BG's are the one of the only place Gold Buyers cannot corrupt... Blizzard likes this...
Flaw five - There is no down side. They dont cost money. (Except arrows and reagants etc) Honor and marks only cost time and in AV at least even lossing makes it worth it.
As for the battlegrounds, AV never worked right - It wanted to be too many things. I like the "game" of WSG and AB better but I AV for the honor...
Blizzard favors raiders and PvPers over all others... I dont play Arena and I quit raiding, so Tier 4 equivilants are the most I will see... The real fix for BG's is to make them less manditory... This is done buy making compareable rewards that are attainable for a compareable amount of work... Crafting is one big way to fix this, and not just at level 70... Why are there no BOP rare items while leveling crafting? BOP tailoring should be seen as a template for all other crafting - a three piece set that is EQUAL OR SUPERIOR to tier 4... Engineers get one helm each that needs a primal nether, LW BOP is sets are not as good as our new easy to get Season one gear... The best quest rewards require long chains and/or groups and they still are not good enough... Rep rewards require a huge amount of Time - way more that Bging... Badge of Justice Reward system is a good anti-PVP...
In the spring 2007, my old guild started raiding kara 2 nights a week... The other 5 nights were spent usually in BG's or Arena teams for welfare epics... This was STANDARD RAID GEARING for most guilds... I hope I dont need to explain how backwards this is!
How many people would queue if THERE WERE NO REWARDS? IE play for fun. Maybe 10%
As for me, new server and new faction... And when my level 60 rogue hits 70 - I am sad that the most best casual gear is from comes from Battlegrounds. I will probably be there!
Thank you Blizzard..
PS - I like the 20-29 bracket still, the last 6 toons I have leveled I have "soft twinked" at 29(Best boe greens and no enchants) and been competative in both WSG and AB. While there are Twinks at 29 they are only 15-25% most of time.
Lance Jan 6th 2008 10:01AM
Blizzard really needs to get far more aggressive on dealing with AFKers. Even with the new reporting system, there's typically over 1/3 of the players AFK. There's just no significant consequence to getting reported.
The new system shouldn't only rely on players...if you're busy spamming your attacks, you don't have time to see who's AFK...find them in the list of raid icons...and report each.
A better system would be:
- Automatically report a player that's done zero damage or healing for four minutes. (that gets the cave dwellers)
- Since there's no consequence to being caught AFKing, make it REALLY hurt. Not only give them a deserter debuff for a couple of hours...also SUBTRACT honor from the player. Make it -300 Honor so they feel the pain.
- Dealing with AFKers that sleep in a defensive positions so as to appear to be active is much more difficult. Without dealing with this, you only shift cave dwellers to another place. For these losers, you'll need to rely on players to report them....but at least they'll be in places where others will see them.
btdown Jan 6th 2008 10:31AM
Nobody does bg's cause they crave pvp action. We want marks/honor because it's the ONLY way to get decent gear once you hit 70 in order to prep for heroic or high end raids. I only play AV, as its the only bg where an alliance can consistently get decent honor. When I need marks from other bg's I go in and hope we lose as quickly as possible so I can get my mark. i have no interest in PVP action and most other players dont as well.