The Art of War(craft): Outdoor PvP, part II - an Outlandish war

Last time, we went over Blizzard's initial attempts at implementing outdoor PvP and found that while the implementation of World PvP objectives in the Eastern Plaguelands and Silithus were teh suck far from stellar, they provided key learnings upon which future zones were built. The battle rages on in The Burning Crusade where four out of the seven zones in Outlands have World PvP objectives. Some work better than others, having quests that lead players to the objectives, while some are just plain confusing.
Similar to the World PvP objectives in Azeroth, all four provide zone-wide buffs for your faction when completed. The buffs in all the zones provide an unimaginative 5% increase to damage, with the exception of the Blessing of Auchindoun, which also adds a 5% increase to experience gain and allows Spirit Shards to drop from Auchindoun instance bosses. The World PvP in Outlands are situated in the hearts of the zones, almost central to the maps, making each objective harder to ignore. As the world beckons for war, let's examine what each specific zone has to offer and how best to achieve each objective.
Similar to the World PvP objectives in Azeroth, all four provide zone-wide buffs for your faction when completed. The buffs in all the zones provide an unimaginative 5% increase to damage, with the exception of the Blessing of Auchindoun, which also adds a 5% increase to experience gain and allows Spirit Shards to drop from Auchindoun instance bosses. The World PvP in Outlands are situated in the hearts of the zones, almost central to the maps, making each objective harder to ignore. As the world beckons for war, let's examine what each specific zone has to offer and how best to achieve each objective.
Hellfire PeninsulaPlayers first experience the Outlands through the harsh and barren landscape of Hellfire Peninsula where a quick glance at the map will reveal three towers almost at the heart of the zone. These three towers represent the Hellfire Fortifications, comprised of three structures -- the Overlook, the Stadium, and Broken Hill -- East of the Hellfire Citadel. The sub-zones can be captured through proximity, sped up by superior numbers, similar to A Game of Towers in the Eastern Plaguelands. The quests to capture the three points are a PvP daily available from quest givers in Thrallmar and Honor Hold. Before daily quests were introduced in Patch 2.1, this was a repeatable quest that used to be an excellent means of raising reputation with the respective factions -- also originally giving 250 Reputation per completion as opposed to the current 150.
Completing the quest objective also awards 3 Marks of Thrallmar or 3 Marks of Honor Hold, which are currency for superior-quality PvP items available in the faction bases in Hellfire and Zangarmarsh. For players just setting foot in Outland, I highly recommend participating in this World PvP objective because of the excellent rewards. The rings Band of the Victor and Circlet of the Victor are the only socketed rings before the Signet of Ancient Magics from Zul'Aman. For many players, these rings will be among the first socketed items they can obtain. It is also fairly easy to accumulate the necessary Marks because in addition to the daily quest reward, Marks are created when you or a member of your group lands a killing blow against a member of the opposing faction while in any of the three sub-zones.
Capturing all three fortifications grants a zone-wide buff called Hellfire Superiority, which grants a 5% increase to all damage done. Players may also purchase a personal buff called Thrallmar Favor or Honor Hold Favor, which provides a 5% increase in experience gain and 25% reputation increase with the relevant faction. Because they can be stacked to 20 and kept for later use, these buffs provide an excellent boost to leveling when used in Hellfire Citadel instances. Items like these represent the balanced synergy between PvP and PvE that Blizzard continually strives for.The most glaring flaw in Hellfire Peninsula's World PvP is the lack of persistence. Similar to the towers in the Eastern Plaguelands, the Hellfire fortifications change hands too often to have any palpable impact on the zone. The zone-wide buff comes and goes too often if there are groups actively attempting the objectives. As discussed in Blizzcon 2007's PvP Panel, Blizzard's own benchmarks for World PvP are that it should be 1) spontaneous, 2) objective-driven, 3) rewarding, and 4) impacts the world. While Hellfire's World PvP design allows for enough spontaneity, has clear objectives, and offers excellent on-level rewards, its impact on the zone isn't compelling enough to encourage more participation. Because control for towers keeps changing -- there's no way to defend a tower once players leave it to capture another -- efforts to capture towers always seem in vain.
Murder by numbers
Carl von Clausewitz, in Von Kriege, wrote, "Superiority of numbers admittedly is the most important factor in the outcome of an engagement... It thus follows that as many troops as possible should be brought into the engagement at the decisive point... This is the first principle of strategy." Thus, with all Clausewitz Principle capture mechanics, the key is strength in numbers. So bring a friend when you PvP in Hellfire Peninsula. Actually, bring four, since a party is the maximum you'll be able to group with in order to complete the quest. As the rewards for completing the objectives are fairly low-level for the Outlands, few Level 70 players do the rounds of the fortifications. With some luck and organization, a group of players in the low 60s can complete the quest easily, with the numbers to score a few Honorable Kills along the way.
When attempting the objectives as a low-level solo -- a rather foolish endeavor, I might add -- it is a slow process of hiding in the structural crevices of the fortifications. Each of the structures has nooks and crannies in which to hide. Needless to say, players must flagged for PvP and not be in stealth or be otherwise invisible, while players on flying mounts must be grounded, in order for the slider bar to progress. As far as combat is concerned, most of the structures favor ranged classes as it's easy to utilize the architecture to kite opponents, although it is mostly a matter of choosing your battles. Broken Hill is the most friendly to melee classes while the Stadium has the most hiding places. When in doubt, however, bring your friends.
ZangarmarshFrom the harsh wasteland of Hellfire Peninsula, players next encounter World PvP in the gas-laden swamps of Zangarmarsh, home of the Twin Spire Ruins. Situated at the center of the map, South of Coilfang Reservoir, are two towers that can be captured through the standard mechanic found in other zones. A small difference lies in the slider, which has a larger, or longer, gray bar which means a longer uncontrolled period. If hotly contested -- which it hardly ever is -- the East and West Beacons become neutral very easily, making capture of what Blizzard calls the Center Tower very difficult.
An interesting twist to the beacon objectives is the capture of the Center Tower, or Twinspire Graveyard. When both East and West Beacons are under one faction's control, respective Field Scouts will begin to dispense Battle Standards, a 5-minute buff that allows the player to capture the Twinspire Graveyard. If at any time either tower becomes uncontrolled, the Field Scouts will cease to dispense the buff. However, any players who already possess the Battle Standard buff may continue to attempt to plant it by clicking on the flag at the center of the map.
Players must carry the Battle Standard on foot -- players cannot receive the buff when mounted, and mounting or shapeshifting will cause the buff to disappear -- taking about two minutes without any speed enhancements to travel from the Field Scout to the Twinspire Graveyard flag. Players must then click on the flag, a standard ten second action similar to the flags in Arathi Basin, in order to take control of it. Control of the Twinspire Graveyard grants Twinspire Blessing to all members of the controlling faction, a zone-wide buff granting a standard 5% increase to all damage done.
Of all the Outlands World PvP objectives, the Twin Spire Ruins are the least compelling and the most difficult to understand. Even on high population PvP servers, it is fairly easy to capture the beacons and graveyard solo because of lack of participation. Most players don't know how to capture the Twinspire Graveyard, nor are they led to do so as there is no quest for it. The rewards, although excellent, are purchased with Marks of Thrallmar or Honor Hold, similar to the items in Hellfire Peninsula. While Marks drop from enemies slain within the Twin Spire Ruins sub-zone, combat is so sparse that it makes more sense to gather them from Hellfire Peninsula, instead. Control of the Central Tower also has minimal impact on the zone. Aside from the 5% damage increase, possession of the Twinspire Graveyard is only truly beneficial to groups who keep wiping -- without wipe recovery -- inside the Coilfang Reservoir instances.

Because the Zangarmarsh sliders have short control times, if actively contested, it is difficult to control both beacons long enough to have the Field Scouts dispense the Battle Standard buff. Because of the long neutral period and slow-moving slider, a faction will only have control of both East and West Beacons if relatively uncontested. A solo player can easily hide behind (or the Northern part of) a beacon and force it to become uncontrolled while players of the opposing faction attempt to capture the other one. As with other World PvP objectives, numbers help; and because the control window is so brief, a group attempting to control both beacons at the same time is the best method to get the Field Scout to dispense Battle Standards. The Alliance Field Scout, a Level 65 non-elite, is in a vulnerable spot located outside of Telredor. As a last resort, a Horde player trying to foil capture of the Twinspire Graveyard can kill the Alliance Field Scout while the Alliance attempt to control the beacons. It's dirty, and I don't *cough* condone it, but well, it's war.
Terokkar ForestIn the Southern part of Terokkar Forest lies a barren landscape called the Bone Wastes, home to unsavory scorpids, corpse-seeking buzzards, restless ghosts, and of course, the ancient walls of Auchindoun. Five towers surround the former Draenei mausoleum, representing the zone's World PvP objectives. Like the Twinspire Ruins in Zangarmarsh, there is no quest associated with the capture of the five Spirit Towers, but the Bone Wastes PvP is one of the more compelling and meaningful implementations of World PvP in the game. The window to capture the Spirit Towers opens six hours after the last time the Bone Wastes came under a faction's control, and thirty minutes after a realm goes up.
Each tower can be captured through the same mechanic as the objectives in Hellfire and Zangarmarsh, with a control slider that has a long contested period but fast capture time. A solo player can capture a neutral tower within 60 seconds and an enemy-controlled tower in 120. Capturing all five towers cedes control of the Bone Wastes to the victorious faction, granting the Blessing of Auchindoun, a zone-wide buff that gives the standard 5% damage increase but additionally also grants a 5% bonus to experience gain and, more importantly, allows capture of Spirit Shards. Spirit Shards, a currency for some excellent items, drop from Auchindoun instance bosses only when the Bone Wastes are controlled by your faction.
The headgear obtained through Spirit Shards are the earliest items that can be socketed with meta gems. The Spirit Shard-bought Swift Starfire Diamond or Swift Windfire Diamond, socketed into the headpieces, are usually how many players first learn how to make meta gems work. The Band of the Exorcist and the Seal of the Exorcist are great epic rings that will serve players well for quite some time even after hitting Level 70. Accumulating Spirit Shards can also be relatively easy because control of the Bone Wastes lasts a long time, allowing scheduled runs into Auchindoun instances.

Tower power
Although it is World PvP, the way to move quickly through towers is to -- again ironically -- avoid PvP. Level 70 players will often just land on the top of the tower without engaging in combat. The Bone Wastes Graveyard is also in the Southwestern part of Auchindoun, making running back to retrieve your body inconvenient and time consuming. If combat is inevitable, try to eliminate the opposing force in a methodical manner because superior numbers are necessary for capturing towers. Focus fire, as prolonged engagements don't help with a short 1-2 minute slider. Always keep an eye on the timer over the Spirit Towers. With luck, it is possible to capture them with little resistance, specially after server restarts.
NagrandFinally, in the heart of the lush fields of Nagrand lies Halaa, a town on an island that can be captured by either faction. A town that shifts allegiance is a mechanic that also works well. In addition to the Strength of the Halaani, a zone-wide buff that gives -- you guessed it -- 5% increase to damage dealt, control of Halaa grants access to items sold by the Halaani vendors such as superior-quality items, recipes, gems, and unique land mounts.
Some items are available for purchase with gold, while others can only be bought through a combination of Halaa Battle Tokens and Halaa Research Tokens. Battle Tokens are created in a similar fashion to Marks of Thrallmar or Honor Hold, through killing in the Halaa sub-zone. The available equipment are somewhat underwhelming, but other items are well worth getting such as Design: Mystic Dawnstone, which can be bought for 12g; and Sublime Mystic Dawnstone, which is purchased with 100 Battle Tokens (formerly a staggering 500 tokens). The 14g red gems Don Amancio's Heart and its Horde-equivalent Don Rodrigo's Heart are cheap, albeit unique-equipped, options for gems which would otherwise cost 30-50g at the Auction House.
Fifteen guards with roughly over 1.2 million hit points are stationed for the town's defense -- Draenei guards for when the Alliance control it, and Blood Elves for the Horde. The guards aren't meant to be taken down in the conventional way but through bombing runs -- which is what the bombing quests in Hellfire Peninsula seem to train players for. Posts situated at the bridges leading to the town can be clicked by opposing players as a standard 10-second action to activate a Wyvern Roost. Players can click on a Wyvern Roost to be sent on a flight path armed with Fire Bombs, limited to stacks of ten, to assault Halaa. Fire Bombs deal around 1000 damage on impact and a DoT that deals 1% health damage per tick, which is key to taking down the Halaani guards with raid-level HP.

Because the four Wyvern Roosts take you on different paths around Halaa, it will take a considerable number of trips from all four points in order to take down all the guards with precision. Once all guards have been slain, it becomes fairly easy to encroach upon the town, which can be captured in the same way as all other towers or beacons in the Outlands. Players can use their flying mounts to stay on buildings in order to get the slider to move, avoiding combat. There is a Graveyard in Halaa, which eases corpse runs for the controlling faction, while assaulting forces will have to run from the Northwind Cleft.

The fatal flaw
Halaa's flaw is that holding it grants little strategic or practical importance. When questing in Nagrand, possession of Halaa is merely a convenience for players without flying mounts as they are able to traverse the map more easily. Although equipped with the conveniences of a normal town such as food & drink, the best ammunition and arrows for their level (66), and other cool items, Halaa is nothing more than a fence-sitting convenience store in the middle of Nagrand. Beyond the availability of items, control of Halaa is mostly cosmetic. Because it isn't a true quest hub, there is no compelling reason to maintain control of the town. For the most part -- at least on PvP servers -- control changes frequently. Factions seize Halaa, make purchases, and generally go their own way.
If Halaa possessed the Outlands' only Auction House, it might possibly be a highly populated, sought-after town worth fighting over -- when under assault, businessmen of all sorts would pack up and either fight or flee. Perhaps the addition of quests, even dailies, would add some urgency to seizing control of Halaa. Under the current arrangement, combat occurs in Halaa primarily only because players are collecting tokens for desired items. It's a fine mechanic that works well in Hellfire Peninsula, but there needs to be something truly compelling about capturing a town.
What the future holds
Perhaps the most exciting news I have heard in recent days are (a little) more details on Blizzard's plans for Lake Wintergrasp, a PvP-exclusive zone within Northrend in Wrath of the Lich King. In a PC Zone interview, WoW lead developer Jeff Kaplan stated that the non-instanced Battleground zone "will be all-PvP -- in no way, shape or form will we support PvE players in it." This might mean seeing less of PvP items obtained through PvE and new items or mechanics intended purely for PvP. Hopefully, Blizzard will apply all the lessons learned from current World PvP zones and build upon them. While I'm excited to see new gimmicks like siege weapons and destructible buildings, I'm also keen to see how they can make World PvP truly compelling. Kaplan stated that Lake Wintergrasp will be completely optional, but for players wishing to enter the zone, there must be a high level of replayability, otherwise the zone will quickly become empty once players have had their fill (or bought their items). A non-instanced, multiple objective Battleground is probably what I look forward to the most in the upcoming expansion. If Blizzard pulls it off right then, I'll most likely be spending most of my WoW time laying siege to towers and waving battle standards on what promises to be a raging battlefield.
Zach Yonzon, who writes the Art of War(craft), took a critical hit from an alarmingly high diastolic blood pressure but was saved by a timely Lay on Hands. After a battery of tests, resting in Silvermoon City, and lots of Super Rejuvenation Potions, Zach returns to offer his insights on PvP every Monday.
Halaa's flaw is that holding it grants little strategic or practical importance. When questing in Nagrand, possession of Halaa is merely a convenience for players without flying mounts as they are able to traverse the map more easily. Although equipped with the conveniences of a normal town such as food & drink, the best ammunition and arrows for their level (66), and other cool items, Halaa is nothing more than a fence-sitting convenience store in the middle of Nagrand. Beyond the availability of items, control of Halaa is mostly cosmetic. Because it isn't a true quest hub, there is no compelling reason to maintain control of the town. For the most part -- at least on PvP servers -- control changes frequently. Factions seize Halaa, make purchases, and generally go their own way.
If Halaa possessed the Outlands' only Auction House, it might possibly be a highly populated, sought-after town worth fighting over -- when under assault, businessmen of all sorts would pack up and either fight or flee. Perhaps the addition of quests, even dailies, would add some urgency to seizing control of Halaa. Under the current arrangement, combat occurs in Halaa primarily only because players are collecting tokens for desired items. It's a fine mechanic that works well in Hellfire Peninsula, but there needs to be something truly compelling about capturing a town.
What the future holds
Perhaps the most exciting news I have heard in recent days are (a little) more details on Blizzard's plans for Lake Wintergrasp, a PvP-exclusive zone within Northrend in Wrath of the Lich King. In a PC Zone interview, WoW lead developer Jeff Kaplan stated that the non-instanced Battleground zone "will be all-PvP -- in no way, shape or form will we support PvE players in it." This might mean seeing less of PvP items obtained through PvE and new items or mechanics intended purely for PvP. Hopefully, Blizzard will apply all the lessons learned from current World PvP zones and build upon them. While I'm excited to see new gimmicks like siege weapons and destructible buildings, I'm also keen to see how they can make World PvP truly compelling. Kaplan stated that Lake Wintergrasp will be completely optional, but for players wishing to enter the zone, there must be a high level of replayability, otherwise the zone will quickly become empty once players have had their fill (or bought their items). A non-instanced, multiple objective Battleground is probably what I look forward to the most in the upcoming expansion. If Blizzard pulls it off right then, I'll most likely be spending most of my WoW time laying siege to towers and waving battle standards on what promises to be a raging battlefield.
Zach Yonzon, who writes the Art of War(craft), took a critical hit from an alarmingly high diastolic blood pressure but was saved by a timely Lay on Hands. After a battery of tests, resting in Silvermoon City, and lots of Super Rejuvenation Potions, Zach returns to offer his insights on PvP every Monday.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, The Art of War(craft) (PvP)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
turkeyspit Jan 7th 2008 12:49PM
@ 12
So much epic fail.
# 1 - I've also heard of these things called Heroics. I've also played in them...have you? The 1st trash mob in Heroic Ramparts can dish out 4500 white damage per hit, with a 5200 MS (and im wearing S1 Plate btw). Good luck completing a heroic run in you PvE Quest Rewards, Blues and Greens.
Unless you are in a heavy raiding guild, you are unlikely to get sufficient gear to regularly run Heroics simply via crafting, AH and random Dungeon drops. While not ideal for PvE, the S1 gear from PvP (as an example) is a good starting off point for people who want to start running Heroics, and can be obtained in a fraction of the time.
# 2 - and at LV 66, they aren't "must haves", but they are still decent gear. My point is, there is no other way to guarantee you will earn an equivalent reward. Have you ever tried running an instance over and over and over again, hoping for the random drop, and then hoping that you outroll any other interested parties? If not, then you have no idea what you are talking about.
Quite frankly, we need more systems like the "spirit shard" turn in, or the "heroic badges" system (albeit at earlier levels, and without the gear requirements), otherwise PvP is the only system that rewards time and effort in a guaranteed basis. You turn in 30 HH marks, you get your goodie, no random rolling required.
Anyone thinking that PvE has an equittable reward system to PvP is deluding themselves.
turkeyspit Jan 7th 2008 12:52PM
@ 15
No they do not, but then how many Instances have guaranteed rewards that are worthwhile?
PvP = Guaranteed Reward
PvE = Random drops and then Random Rolling to win it
That seems equal to you?
Kikr Jan 8th 2008 10:25AM
well thats only if your guild does random rolls for item drops :P
nativebrown Jan 7th 2008 12:58PM
lol.
good stuff.
Zach Jan 7th 2008 1:02PM
To each his own, really. This is what I love about WoW... there's something for everybody. I would like to politely disagree with Turkeyspit on the notion that Blizzard "forces" PvE players to PvP in order to get good items. It might even be quite the opposite, as there is simply no way for a PvP player to avoid PvE completely. In fact, Blizzard has stated on several occasions that they want PvP players to do some PvE -- the rationale behind items such as Dory's Embrace.
Instead of spending your time getting the marks to acquire Splintermark, you might have been better served by killing Broggok in the Blood Furnace for Legion Blunderbuss. If you want a sure thing, at level 64, you could have gotten Hemet's Elekk Gun through the quest chain in Nagrand.
At Level 70 for Heroics, again I would disagree with Turkeyspit that the PvP items are better. So much stat points are allocated to Resilience that many blues serve you better in instances. As a Hunter, the stat points allocated for Resilience would go towards more AP and Agility, meaning more DPS. That you would go for PvP gear seems to me a matter of preference.
The very first column I wrote dealt with the very issue you seem to emphasize: PvP gear is certain. We agree on this. However, I disagree that PvE offers no equivalent content or rewards. In fact, your point has inspired me to write up some food for thought... thanks, Turkeyspit.
turkeyspit Jan 7th 2008 1:47PM
Actually Zach, thats a whole different can of worms.
My Hunter is a Night Elf, and in the spirit of RP, I abhor having to use a Gun as a ranged weapon. So, as a matter of personal preference, Splintermark was the way to go. In any case, the Elek Gun comes 6 levels after you enter Outland, and the Legion Blunderbuss is still a drop.
As another example, when my Hunter hit LV 51, all he could think about was getting that Ice Barbed Spear from the AV quest. Now, I grant you that many levels later, you can complete Sethekk Halls for Terokk's Quill (one of the only guaranteed dungeon rewards I can think of offhand) but you don't mean to stand there and tell me that completing Sethekk is as easy to do as simply joining AV and having your team win?
Btw, my Hunter got Ice Barbed on this first AV run. My Ret Pally took 11 AV games before we could pull out a win, and at that level, Ice Barbed Spear was the best weapon for both my toons.....and it forced me to run a BG.
As for the whole PvP gear vs PvE notion, while I may not be the shining example of all that is WoW'dom, I must point out the following:
1 - my main character (70 Hunter) didnt do too many dungeons on his way up (so many hunters on my server) but found himself at LV 70 with greens and quest rewards. So now I've crafted the whole Felstalker set, and am looking for an upgrade to take him through Heroics. Despite it's lack of Mp5/AP, I still find the S1 Gear to be way better then anything else that doesn't require a dozen or so Dungeon runs and the hopes of a lucky drop and roll.
2 - my alt is a Ret Paladin, and he ran every single dungeon, multiple times, on his way to LV 70. In fact, by the time I started running BGs for his S1 set, he was geared almost entirely in Blues, mostly dungeon drops. The sad fact is though, the S1 gear offered double the Armor, and often a 75% increase in stats. Sure, its missing Mp5 and Hit Rating, but it still outclasses anything else. (this is specific to Ret gear. Holy / Prot gear is easier to get in PvE drops)
What it all comes down to is this: how long would you PvP'ers stand earning your marks and honors, going to the Hall of Champions and buying a large "sack", and then opening it up, hoping it was the item you wanted? That is the experience of the PvE'er. (actually, we have to roll on that item even if we are lucky enough to see it drop)
The only way to make it equal would be to add way better gear to Factions that we can buy once we get enough reputation with them, and/or increase the quality and quantity of gear one can earn by turning in things like Spirit Shards.
In your article you named a few methods by which PvP'ers can earn guaranteed gear:
- Arenas
- Battlegrounds
- Halaa
- Hellfire Fortifications
Compare that to the PvE'er who:
- has to enable PvP to capture the towers in the Auchindoun to earn Spirit Shards
I purposefully omitted running Heroics and Raiding because your average player cannot just up and run either, while any little monkey can engage in PvP (and suck!) and still earn reward.
You are correct in that Blizzard doesn't "force" us to run PvP; we can settle for less...but that doesn't seem right, does it?
And for the record, a PvP'er can avoid PvE very easily, as PvE (by my definition anyways) equals Dungeons and Instances. The everyday grind/questing is just how you level up your character, and is neither PvP or PvE specific.
It is far easier to gear up your character for PvP then it is for PvE, and that is the foundation behind mine (and many other) PvE'ers frustration. We pay our $15 the same as PvP'ers. If I wanted to play Deathmatch / PvP, I would play Quake, Battlefield, Unreal Tournament, blah blah blah. That isn't what I signed up for when I bought WoW.
Zach Jan 7th 2008 3:00PM
Turkeyspit wrote: "2 - my alt is a Ret Paladin, and he ran every single dungeon, multiple times, on his way to LV 70. In fact, by the time I started running BGs for his S1 set, he was geared almost entirely in Blues, mostly dungeon drops. The sad fact is though, the S1 gear offered double the Armor, and often a 75% increase in stats. Sure, its missing Mp5 and Hit Rating, but it still outclasses anything else. (this is specific to Ret gear. Holy / Prot gear is easier to get in PvE drops)"
I hate to say it, but S1 and S2 are HORRIBLE Retribution Paladin items. S3 and warrior items are the only way to go, particularly with the incoming change to Crusader Strike.
As for your examples of gear, I turn the argument around: if I were to PvP exclusively, would I be able to get the best items for my level at every level? The answer is a resounding 'no'. In fact, I NEED to do PvE in order to get decent gear in between PvP minimum level requirements. The Level 60 epics will simply not last until Level 70, where the next set of weapons become available.
Quite simply, you post an extremely one-sided argument. You present an argument about wanting to PvE exclusively yet covet PvP-obtained items. These are minor concessions to PvP players. It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach Level 70 without doing PvE. But it is completely possible to not do PvP AT ALL with the occasional sacrifice of not getting a few items.
Andy Jan 7th 2008 1:03PM
Some of the best world PvP I have had recently is leveling an alt through Dustwallow Marsh (PvP server). A horde quest objective results in killing the Alliance questgivers in a tower. Whenever I needed to get/turn-in a quest there were horde trying to take the tower. Fun & bloodshed for all.
The Blizz designed objectives all seem to be about avoiding the enemy to capture an unopposed objective. (yawn)
Sedicla Jan 7th 2008 1:19PM
All I have to say about pvp is:
I miss Southshore/Tauren Mill days....
Shae Jan 7th 2008 1:25PM
My personal oppinion on world pvp is that for the most part it offers absolutely nothing substancial. Sure the gear from some pvp/rep grinds can be nice (as well as patterns and such), and yes the stat bonuses are nice too, nothing at all wrong with any of that. But how about making world pvp meaningful?
Can the dev's not think of something that would actually give me a vested interest for myself, my guild and my faction to actually go and fight for. How about thinking of something innovative? Give me a reason to go back and lay seige to a town, bring the war back in warcraft and come up with something that let me fight for a cause as opposed to purple pixels.
Don't get me wrong, I like gear rewards, that's what WoW has been about since it launched and will most likely always be about getting that next really great, awesome looking equipment but it would be nice to have world pvp, or any sort of pvp for that matter, that actually offered some sort of meaningful reason to partake.
Zach Jan 7th 2008 3:02PM
I agree with you completely, Shae. I hope Lake Wintergrasp will be a truly compelling zone.
dpak Jan 9th 2008 11:38AM
To those that say "down with pvp" or "I did not play on a pvp server for a reason", I have to say.
So what.
I am a pve player, that finds the occasional pvp fun.
I am not on a pvp server, so when I dont feel like it, I dont do it. I think it adds to the game, that it is an option, and it is there.
As far as the PVP epics, I think they are great.
This is a great way to get good high end gear, when you might not be able to do the PVE content.
What I DO think they need to adjust, is a bit more gear equalization. There needs to be more PVE gear in PVP rewards, AND some of the PVP rewards need to be MORE accessible to players who are PVE.
(the trinkets that break fear, for example).
I think blizz does a great job creating content for both types of players (arenas, new 5mans, ZA, Sunwell, etc.). I would just like to see a bit more gear equalization.
Necrous Jan 7th 2008 1:53PM
"# 1 - I've also heard of these things called Heroics. I've also played in them...have you? The 1st trash mob in Heroic Ramparts can dish out 4500 white damage per hit, with a 5200 MS (and im wearing S1 Plate btw). Good luck completing a heroic run in you PvE Quest Rewards, Blues and Greens."
----
First of all the intended progression is normal dungeons to gear for heroic level dungeons to gear for 10 mans to gear for 25 mans. Step into a heroic with PVE quest rewards, blues/greens yeah your going to get crushed. Thats why you run the instances on normal first until you have all the best equipment they offer you.
You mention your in S1 plate taking massive hits in ramparts. So one of two scenarios must be true.
1. Your a tanking warrior/paladin. Your far better off with blues from normal mode drops with pve stats on them like Defense for example.
2. Your a dps warrior paladin. In either case your not carrying a shield, wonder why your getting hit so hard? Get a threat meter and quit pulling aggro.
Oomfoofoo Jan 7th 2008 1:57PM
Great in depth write up. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I will definitely book mark this for anyone who has questions regarding 'post BC' world PvP.
Chelon Jan 7th 2008 6:29PM
I have a concern about world PvP.
On my server, Antonidas, the Alliance outnumber Horde quite a bit. It is rare we can take over Halaa, nor can we hold it long.
The prospect of world PvP in Lich King with siege weapons and destructable buildings sounds great, but the imbalance in raw numbers would make this a non-competition. I wonder how Blizzard will account for this without making it instanced.
Zach Jan 7th 2008 3:20PM
That is a very good concern. I believe Blizzard is aware of such population imbalances and how it affects World PvP, among other things. The only real solution is to raise faction population so the disparity isn't overwhelming. Any other solution -- such as game mechanics like handicaps -- are mere band-aids. Hopefully Blizzard finds a fix for a very real concern on some servers.
Milktub Jan 7th 2008 3:28PM
"PvP = Guaranteed Reward
PvE = Random drops and then Random Rolling to win it"
And that's the end point for me. I may be an idiot for not doing BGs over a weekend to get a sweet piece of gear, but then I can call you a lazy bastard in welfare epics for not running an instance until you can do it blindly, all while crossing your fingers that THIS is the run that finally gets you that piece you've been wanting.
Smurk Jan 7th 2008 5:05PM
" The Level 60 epics will simply not last until Level 70"
I can't speak for any other classes, but I have to admit that I am still using a High Warlord's Razor at 68 but it's really not bad. There are some better dungeon rewards I could've gotten (I assume) but I didn't, and now waiting for S1 daggers won't kill me.
(Some might say that speccing for daggers will in fact kill me - but hey, I like daggers.)
Henk Jan 7th 2008 5:13PM
Turkeyspit: No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to PvP. Don't like it? Don't do it.
superfrank Jan 10th 2008 5:40AM
Those of you who claim that its impossible to do heroics without karazhan loot are fools - I geared up via L70 instances, then I gained all the heroic epics before I even set foot in karazhan! I think I might have geared up a bit more quickly if I had gone to karazhan earlier though.