The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Saying hi to the new boss

The Care and Feeding of Warriors comes to you this week to discuss preparing to tank a new boss for the first time. Matthew Rossi has ended up dead under the feet of some jerk with a fancy name enough times to know that you need to be sure you're ready before you step into the instance. Learn from his boneheadedness.
One of the drawbacks of playing a tanking warrior (or any tank, really, but I'm not writing the druid or paladin columns, after all) is needing to have a certain threshold of gear in order to do the job. You might well know how to hold aggro exceedingly well, but if you don't have the armor, defense, mitigation stats and health to stand up to the pounding then you'll die and dead warriors are insanely bad at hold aggro.
No, not undead, just plain dead. Undead warriors are no worse at holding aggro than anyone else. (Sorry for the mix-up, Vish, you know I know you're awesome.) Being that holding aggro is thereby a function of not only generating threat but surviving as you do so, there are thresholds below which you won't survive tanking a boss encounter. If a boss can possibly unleash 12k damage (I'm looking right at you, phase 2 Prince) then you'd need, at a minimum, something like 16k health to tank him, buffed. I'd prefer more. (The MT on our Prince kills has about 17k buffed.) This level of health is necessary to provide room for your healers to get those heals off after a huge damage spike.
The unfortunate upshot to all this is that it can be hard to get into the instances where the gear you need drops, if you're not geared enough to tank them yet. There are a few quest drops and crafted items that can help close the gap, but the catch 22 factor still exists. To get the gear to run the 25 man raids, you need to run the 10 mans. To get the gear for the 10 mans, you should be doing heroics first. If you want to survive inside the heroics, you need to run the normal level 70 instances first. To a degree you can fill some of these holes with Badges of Justice, but you need to get your gear up high enough to get those first, which requires at least a solid set of gear.
Part of the problem is that a tank's gear more quickly shows its weaknesses than a DPSer, much as a healer's can: if you're an undergeared DPS player on a run where everyone else meets or even exceeds the gear requirements, then it probably won't matter much. After all, even undergeared you'll still be contributing damage, and usually gear won't hurt your CC one way or another if you're providing that. But if yoy go into heroic Slave Pens in a set of level 66 'Of The Champion' plate and expect to tank it, you're going to die unless your healer is simply awesome, and even then said healer is going to remember this run as a nightmare where he or she couldn't take their eyes off of you for a second. Some of the DPS will figure out why they died to damage that normally they'd get a cheap spot heal for, as well, if somehow that healer manages to keep you up.
It would be nice if all up and coming tanks could come to the 70 instances in solid tanking gear already, but since leveling in the game often requires you to do a lot of questing and grinding, pursuits that aren't as tank friendly at least as far as protection spec warriors are concerned, a lot of warriors spec arms/fury or fury/arms for leveling and as such end up collecting a lot less tanking gear. (My advice? Hold on to every single quest reward you get with good tanking stats until you get another piece with superior stats. My human warrior uses a green ring that he gathered in this fashion to tank heroics, it's a surprisingly strong ring considering.) Don't always confuse 'good' with 'blue or purple' either. You can tank level 70 instances, even heroics, in greens if they are the right greens. This is not to say you can do it in off the rack AH purchases, you'll need to put some effort into looking over your quest rewards, comparing their stats and deciding if you have anything as good. The Wind Trader's Band I linked above is a good example of a green that will last you quite a long time.
Another thing to consider for the up and coming tank is that tanking is more than just stamina and defense. These are important stats, yes. You want to survive, and you want to mitigate incoming damage. But new stats like expertise are much more important than they first appear. Expertise is shaping up to be a very important tanking stat. Not only does it help you generate aggro by ensuring you are dodged less and parried less, but there's a hidden advantage to having higher expertise: it is a mitigation stat.
Higher expertise means that you are dodged and parried less, which against a boss reduces the chance he will get a counterattack move against you, which is similar to the usual attack he or she can do but happens faster than normal, making it hard for a tank to have a shield block or other avoidance move up to smooth it out. Since it can be hard to tell if you've just been dodged or parried, a stat that reduces the chances of this happening also reduces the chances for a surprise big hit or crushing blow in response to you being dodged or parried.
So we have a natural gear progression to consider, and we know that we need to improve our tanking stats across the board as best we can (you'll be capping defense at 490 first, since it's vitally important to prevent crits, and then working on your other stats), getting your stamina up, your expertise, hit, dodge, block and parry as gear with those options becomes available to you. You'll also be making sure that you have all the proper buff foods and consumables, as they can help push you higher on any places you might be lacking to help provide some more slack for your healers. So what else do we need to do to tank bosses?
Figure out what it is they do. Sometimes, this may require some wiping.
Nobody likes to wipe. Especially not the dudes in plate! Believe me, everyone, if the warriors (and paladins for that matter) had it in their power, your groups would never, ever wipe. We hate repair costs the way other folks hate overripe bananas. (What? They're nasty.) I heartily recommend to any and all tanks that you go out there and read up on a new boss as soon as you can, and try and get the rest of your group to do so as well. And once you've done so, make sure to cover the boss in detail for any new players in your group who may not know the fight. But sometimes, if you're unlucky or just very fast in progression, you come up on a boss that no one's done a write up for yet, and that means you've just become a guinea pig. This learning process is necessary, so try and grin and bear it with good humor. Also try and keep in mind that fights you have done, and learned, can still wipe you. Prince comes to mind again: you can have 18k health on your MT, well geared DPS, the healers are prepped and easily breaking 1700 +heal, everyone knows their positioning and yet you still die. A heal is a fraction of a second late, a bad enfeeble/infernal combination kills the melee DPS and suddenly you're barely even scratching the Prince, Shadow Nova comes at a really bad time. These things happen.
It's really important that a tank doesn't let his or her frustration show as anger. It's okay and understandable to be frustrated when you wipe five times on a boss you've killed before, but yelling at your raid isn't going to get the thing dead. Trust me, if yelling killed bosses, the mute function on my headset would be like unto a god and I'd be dripping in legendaries.
Not much else to say, I guess. You have to meet the gear requirements, then constantly upgrade as new gear requirements come in for new encounters, always upgrading your health pool, your mitigation stats and your aggro generation stats. You have to make sure you're prepped with food and consumables. You have to research the fights, learning about abilities like Charred Earth or Empowerment. And you have to keep your cool throughout the whole process, despite the understandable urge to rip the headset off and scream profanities at that one guy who won't stop moving during Flame Wreath. And the reward is, once you kill the guy you're on now, you get to do it all over again for some new dude whose crotch will be in your face for most of the fight!
Don't all run off to start grinding your tanking gear at once, I know I make it sound so glamourous.
Next week we switch gears and talk about DPSing.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Bosses, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
A Man In Black Jan 11th 2008 3:40PM
After 490, Dodge becomes more efficient than Defense for avoidance.
Charles Jan 11th 2008 2:33PM
Ok, try to treat a group with respect and I get the "You're not going to be a successful tank" do the math. It is possible to push crushing blows off the damage table. I don't think you're going to be successful because you obviously rely on your healers to do your work for you. A good tank manages his rage and damager intake to manageable level. You can continue to rely on luck and your set of perfect healers until you get a healer that isn't perfect, and your stamina plan falls to pieces. If avoidance wasn't meant to be used in place of stamina, we'd have a set of abilities like a bear.
Breklin Jan 11th 2008 2:56PM
A naked, protection specced warrior can push crushing blows off the table, so your argument falls to pieces.
Yes you can manage your damage intake, by using SB, TC and DS but if a boss decides to hit you for 15k in one second, the avoidance tank dies while the stamina one lives.
Please, learn more about your class before you decide to go on your next tirade.
Dave Jan 11th 2008 2:57PM
We have shield block. That's the point of it. No crushes, no crits. No need to go nuts and stack other things for that third attack in 5 seconds that rips us a new one followed by the crazy special attack that's unblockable (and perhaps magical) that eats 9k.
The logic is that occasionally you're going to eat a really bad 3rd attack you can't shield block. It's going to damage you, and it's going to hurt. It's also going to probably be followed by something you can't avoid, block or otherwise mitigate with anything BUT armor and stamina. (ie: hurtful strike, shadow nova, etc etc). You're going to take that 3rd hit and the special every once in a while. Maybe you get luck and on a particular boss fight it never happens. More often than not, you're going to hit that shield block a bit early, eat 2 attacks with it, but the 3rd attack comes before you have enough rage to throw up the block again and then the hurtful strike whomps you for 8k. Then the healer doesn't get a heal on you before something interrupts them (the ground stomp thing on gruul for example) and you're going to eat another 5k from the cave in and shatter. Do you have enough HP to survive this? The tank with 15k buffed, doesn't. The tank with 20k buffed probably does.
Isambaard Jan 11th 2008 3:19PM
Avoidance tanks rely on luck, stam tanks rely on math. It really is that simple. Read up on effective health and understand no one is saying stam to infinity, we're saying stam to the required level then move on to the next stat and that stam comes before avoidance in that list.
metalgearpliskin Jan 12th 2008 4:49PM
I dont agree with number 8 im the main tank in a raiding guild on ursin Legacy! We are in SSC and have downed void. I have 2 sets of gear. my reg tanking gear 14 k hp and 30 % block 27% dodge and 20% parry and a hp set with 20 k hp. for the most part im in my \reg stuff for every fight.
For instance if void enrages no matter what u get one shot but i have avoided his hits 6 times b4.
as a prot war avoidance is KEY stam is secondary.
Theefury Ursin
Charles Jan 11th 2008 3:42PM
You've got that backwards. Warriors with the right match of avoidance and stam rely on math, stam warriors are at the mercy of healers and buffs.
A Man In Black Jan 11th 2008 3:41PM
At the mercy of buffs? Since when is a raid tank not raid buffed? And what tank anywhere isn't completely at the mercy of the healers?
Main tank gearing is simple. and works the same way for all three classes. Get to your uncrushable/uncrittable thresholds, stack stam to be able to absorb the worst spike possible (either the worst spike you can possibly take or the worst spike the boss can possibly do, and for most fights it's gonna be the former), then stack whatever your most efficient survival stat is after that.
You're not going to push crushing blows off the table as a warrior without SB, unless you're wearing some godawful avoidance-heavy set that will get you gibbed if you are maintanking most progression bosses relative to your gear.
You bring up Prince and debuff bosses, the main times where you trade in a ton of avoidance. These fights are the exception, not the rule. Any tank that doesn't realize that their first job in gearing is to gear to take the biggest spike of damage that they possibly can is gonna spend a looooooooong time wiping in Gruul's Lair.
Dave Jan 11th 2008 4:48PM
what kind of horrible raid groups are you working with?
If you're -not- bringing along a Druid, Priest and Paladin if only for the buffs, isn't that a problem with your raid composition over anything else? They're all hybrids with multiple functions, so it's not like you can't put a druid in the dps, tank, OR heal slot, and paladins for tanking or heals (lol ret) and obviously everyone loves a shadow priest.
You seem to be talking about 5-man tanking, while everyone else is way ahead of your game and into the raid tanking where you -will- rely on the other people in your raid to perform their jobs in order to succeed. Maybe by being the most awesome avoidance tank ever you can go plow through your 5-man instances with ease, but that doesn't happen in real raids.
I guarantee you've never successfully tanked Gruul with 15k buffed. I'm willing to bet you've never even tanked Gruul at all, or if you did you were probably the first tank to die.
It doesn't really get EASIER after gruul with regards to survivability on low amounts of stam in favor of avoidance, EXCEPT on specific fights, and even then there aren't many of those. You're doing nobody a favor, and I'd be very reluctant to bring someone like you on a raid I cared about.
You can tank alt night, where everyone's drinking and nobody cares when we wipe, but I sure don't want you ruining my easy nights with repeated wipes after getting 2-shot by every boss.
dcr13 Jan 11th 2008 5:23PM
@Charles
I'm a paladin healer. I will speak from our point of view.
You said earlier that warriors shouldn't "Gamble" by stacking stamina. I hope you realize that stacking avoidance over stamina is by definition, a gamble. You're hoping that the odds will roll in your favor and you won't get hit enough to die. Stamina is by definition not a gamble. It's always there. It's reliable.
Prince is a perfect example of why I prefer my tanks to prioritize stamina. He hits so fast and the fight is so long that pretty much every fight he triple smacks the tank for 12K damage. No amount of avoidance at that level of gear will prevent that. If the tank on the other hand has stacked stamina then he can survive that inevitable onslaught of damage.
Stamina is where it's at. This is coming from an experience healer's point of view.
roger3 Jan 11th 2008 3:29PM
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/
That is 90% of what you will need to know before you step foot in Kara. Yes, there is calculus, yes you need to understand it, if not duplicate it.
Milktub Jan 11th 2008 3:52PM
"It's really important that a tank doesn't let his or her frustration show as anger."
Very good advice there. My warrior gets invites from past group partners partially because i'm a good tank, but mostly because I have a sense of humor about things. When things go poorly and we're all corpse-running, I'll laugh it off.
Personally, I like stat balancing as a warrior tank. I have definite goals to shoot for. I know that before I agree to tank a heroic, I need my 490 def, 12k hp, 13k armor, and 15% on each of the avoidance stats. Much more simple that trying to stat balance on my rogue (how much crit? how much hit? how much stam?). And I'm pleased to note that all I need for my warrior to hit that beginning level, all I need are new gems (which I'm picking up at bargain prices) and enchants (which I've been saving up mats for with my 'chanter bank alt).
dan Jan 11th 2008 4:02PM
Don't forget expertise (reduces mob dodge and parry). For a prot warr the returns on it are more valuable then +hit (reduces just miss). Even though its a new stat and somewhat poorly itemized there are a some items with it that are somewhat accessible: mallet of the tides, bracers of the ancient phalanx, broach of deftness.
Seanos Jan 11th 2008 4:51PM
You definitely SHOULD stack stamina as a first priority, but avoidance is still very important... remember that avoidance is a percentage and therefore non-linear - stamina is linear. A tank requires a certain baseline avoidance in order to start receiving the benefits from it. I can't necessarily put my finger on a number, but once you are over ~45% combined dodge/parry/miss, your life (and those of your healers) becomes that much easier.
Isambaard Jan 11th 2008 5:33PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/joanadark/32241-point-no-more-stam.html
That's a great discussion of when more stam becomes less effective than more armor, more avoidance, more +hit, etc.
Oblivion Jan 11th 2008 5:15PM
I don't know anything about tanking, but I just wanted to say that the discussion between Dave/Charles/Matthew and everyone else has been really informative and fun to read. Good post and nice discussion. I kind of want to roll a warrior now.
MartinC Jan 12th 2008 7:47AM
We publish easily recognizable requirements for each raid we do. Here are some numbers for Kara and ZA. It really helps people figure out if they are ready, and if not, what they need to work on. There is some flexibility in the numbers, as it can depend on skill and playstyle, but these are generally on the mark. For tanking (unbuffed):
Karazhan
Protection Warrior: 490 Def, 12K AC, 12K HP, 35% Hit Avoidance
Zul'Aman
Protection Warrior: 500 Def, 15K AC, 14K HP, 45% Hit Avoidance
btw, hit avoidance = %miss + %dodge + %parry
Dean Jan 13th 2008 1:22PM
You need to balance Stam and Avoidance, but the precise level of the balance has nothing to do with the tank. It's dependant upon the healers.
Stamina keeps tanks alive, assuming the healers can keep up the heals, enough stam will keep you up. By stacking Stam you'll never die and have your healers say "We were spamming everything but still couldn't keep you up". Stamina keeps tanks alive in the short term. But without enough avoidance you might well be 70% through the fight when all your healers go "OOM". When this happens it's generally seen as the fault of the healers. Oftentimes it is. But it could also be down to a lack of avoidance.
Avoidance is about the long term. Having 60% avoidance still means you can still get whacked 8 times in a row. It's random. But over the course of a fight you'll take 100s of hits, and it'll mostly even out. As long as you have enough stamina to take an string of hits, it'll pay off as later in the fight you'll probably dodge 8 times in a row. By stacking avoidance you reduce the total damage you take over the entire boss fight. It doesn't protect you from being nuked quickly, but it does mean overall the damage you take is less, and so the healing needed is less, and so the less mana expended by your healers.
There is no sweet spot for stamina vs avoidance that's purely a function of tank gear and raid boss. The healer gear (and healer classes used) also factor in. Got 3 over-geared healers backing you up? Stack stamina, it'll help compensate for any bad luck or mess-ups on thier part or yours. Thier mana won't be a problem. Got 3 lesser geared healers? Go with avoidance. Everyone will need to be on thier toes a lot more to quick heal in the spikes but it'll stop them going OOM.
Wraeth Jan 14th 2008 8:08AM
To add; the reason Prince is such a good fight to have avoidance on is he works on the 24% base miss due to dual wield - avoidance will work better here than in many other fights.
As has already been pointed out - stamina provides a large cushion for healing; in 25 man you are probably being spam healed anyway, so if you avoid 2 hits, great, but the healing was there for them. Avoidance is important, but stamina is a better pure progression stat as it leaves more room for learning error.
I am surprised so little mention is made of armour - it scales non-linearly and is an excellent stat for most mele fights.