Build Shop: Rogue 19/42/0

Welcome to another Tuesday edition of Build Shop! This past week I received an email from a Rogue reader in an up and coming guild that's just starting to raid Kara who says he's a non-believer in the "No Ruthlessness, No Murder, No Relentless Strike -- No Raid" policy. He also wanted to know about the viability of a hybrid build (30/0/31), and how it could be improved for casual instances, raids, and the occasional PvP skirmish. Well, that's kind of a tall order, and I plan to address it more fully tomorrow in Encrypted Text.
However, I will deal with part of the question today by talking about why Combat is the superior tree for PvE in many cases. Although there are many different types of Combat builds (Mace + Sword, Daggers, Fist, etc) these days, I'm going to focus on Combat swords (19/42/0). This is a build that doesn't rely on positioning like Combat Daggers or Mutilate, making it great for fights with a lot of movement. This is also a build which can really crank out the damage with the right weapons and gear. I feel that this is one of the finest and most effective DPS builds in the game -- read on to find out why.
However, I will deal with part of the question today by talking about why Combat is the superior tree for PvE in many cases. Although there are many different types of Combat builds (Mace + Sword, Daggers, Fist, etc) these days, I'm going to focus on Combat swords (19/42/0). This is a build that doesn't rely on positioning like Combat Daggers or Mutilate, making it great for fights with a lot of movement. This is also a build which can really crank out the damage with the right weapons and gear. I feel that this is one of the finest and most effective DPS builds in the game -- read on to find out why.
Combat swords is more than just Sinister Strike spam. As you get closer to the hit cap, Combat Potency just gets better and better, enabling an attentive Rogue to keep Slice and Dice up while building combo points towards Rupture or another finisher. To play the build effectively you've got to be aware of how long the fight will last, choosing the appropriate attack or finisher for the situation, and be able to manage your cooldowns so that you can DPS with maximum efficiency. Because after all, that's what being a Combat Rogue is all about -- dealing as much damage as you can with as much efficiency as you can muster. Sustained damage is the name of the game in raids and most other instances because that's what you are being brought for, and those who spec for burst damage will eventually fall by the wayside because they simply can't keep up.
This build snags all the traditional points from the Assassination tree to increase damage / energy regeneration / combo point generation (these points have been required for PvE Combat builds in some form or another for as long as I can remember), but then I'm going all the way down the Combat tree.
Assassination (19 points)
- Malice (5/5) - Increases crit chance by 5%. No reason not to take this.
- Ruthlessness (3/3) - Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to the target. A great talent that helps with combo point generation.
- Murder (2/2) - Increases damage done to 4 different types of mobs by 2%.
- Relentless Strikes (1/1) - Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to give you 25 energy. More energy means more attacks and more finishers, so anything that gives you energy is a good thing.
- Lethality (5/5) - Increases the critical damage of many of your special attacks by 30%. Bigger crits means more damage, so don't pass this one up.
- Vile Poisons (3/5) - Increases the damage of your poisons and Envenom by 12% and an additional 24% for them to be dispelled. For this build, I wouldn't recommend using Envenom because you'll lose your 5 stack, but it will increase the damage of your poisons. Alternatively, on raids where mobs are immune to poison, you can consider putting these 3 points in Improved Eviscerate instead.
Combat (42 points)
- Improved Gouge (3/3) - Increases the duration of Gouge by 1.5 seconds. Has its occasional uses, but if you find yourself opposed to this on principle, take 3 points in Lightning Reflexes instead.
- Improved Sinister Strike (2/2) - Decreases the Energy cost of Sinister Strike by 5. As you'll be using Sinister Strike as your primary attack, this is a critical talent.
- Improved Slice and Dice (3/3) - Increases the duration of Slice and Dice by 45%. SnD grants you 30% haste, and this talent almost doubles the amount of time that it's up. Don't miss this one, as it's also necessary to maintain Combo Point cycles.
- Precision (5/5) - Increases your chance to hit by 5%. Very useful for helping you to get to the hit cap.
- Improved Sprint (2/2) - I like Improved Sprint over Endurance because it removes snares, which is often useful, but place these 2 points anywhere you like.
- Dual Wield Specialization (5/5) - Increases the damage done by your offhand by 50%. This brings the damage penalty to your offhand weapon down to 25% (from 50%), so pick this one up.
- Blade Flurry (1/1) - Increases attack speed by 20% and causes your attack to also hit a 2nd nearby target for 15 seconds. Use this often -- anything that increases your attack speed is fantastic.
- Sword Specialization (5/5) - Gives you a 5% chance to get an extra attack on the same target. The extra sword swing comes from your main hand, but a sword in your offhand can also proc an extra main hand attack.
- Weapon Expertise (2/2) - Increases expertise by 10. Decreases the chance your target will dodge or parry your attack by 2.5% -- yet another great talent.
- Aggression (3/3) - Increases the damage of Sinister Strike, Backstab and Eviscerate by 6%. Every bit helps, and since we're going further into the tree anyway you should definitely pick this up.
- Vitality (2/2) - Increases your stamina by 4% and your agility by 2%. A small bonus, but a bonus nonetheless.
- Adrenaline Rush (1/1) - Grants you 100% increases energy regeneration for 15 seconds. Still a great talent, as it potentially doubles your damage output from special attacks while it's up.
- Nerves of Steel (2/2) - Increases resistance to Stun and Fear by 10%. There are many mobs and bosses that can do both, and maintaining control of your character is generally preferable to running around aimlessly or being stuck in one spot.
- Combat Potency (5/5) - Gives your offhand attacks a 20% chance to generate 15 energy when they land. An amazing talent, and only gets better the closer you get to the hit cap. Many rogues like to run with a fast weapon in their offhand to maximize the chance that this procs. Using Shiv can also cause this to proc, but it's generally not worth the energy expenditure.
- Surprise Attacks (1/1) - Your special attacks can no longer be dodged, and increases the damage of Sinister Strike, Backstab, Gouge and Shiv by 10%. Don't pass this up, it's absolutely worth it.
If you're a sword Rogue who's looking to raid, I highly suggest that you try this build out. Tomorrow on Encrypted Text I'll be going a little deeper into why Combat builds generally outperform other builds on long fights, so if I've piqued your interest on the subject make sure to point your browsers towards Encrypted Text tomorrow.
That wraps up this edition of Build Shop, but I'll be back again next week! What do you want to see on Build Shop? Send me an email with your questions or comments, and we'll talk shop.
Filed under: Rogue, Build Shop, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Scoottie Jan 15th 2008 7:57PM
To hellshire: If you are not using evis as a combat rogue you need to either respec, reroll, or just stop playing the game.
hellshire Jan 15th 2008 8:08PM
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16940-roguecraft_101_a/
Learn it, live it, love it.
I'll save you some effort and quote the important part.
"On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture."
Rupture scales insanely well, evis doesn't. No Raiding rogue will ever use Evis over Rupture. If you can't understand this I suggest YOU reroll.
robodex Jan 15th 2008 11:27PM
Do you actually play a rogue or are you just stupid?
baby_huey Jan 16th 2008 7:25AM
While Hellfire did a great job of covering why evis is a bad finisher to use in PvE unless your target is bleed immune. He did miss your comment about weapon expertise which is just blatantly wrong. 10 points in weapon expertise provide a 2.5% reduction in dodges as a rogue, which ends up being two of the best placed talent points as a rogue.
Riposte is useless in PvE if you are doing your job right. You should not be getting any parries during the fight. Nerves of steel and Imp sprint are just filler to climb higher in the tree. To be honest you would be better off removing a point from Nerves of Steel and Lethality and putting them into vile poisons. Lethality looks great but ends up being a very small fraction of your dps because it only effects certain special moves (2-5% depending on buffs).
Try:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboyZGcV0bVzxMGkt
Download this and test out your gear and specs to max your dps: http://rogue.raidcal.com/ You can now import your character from the armory saving some time trying to add in all your own gear and spec. Check out the elitest jerks thread Hellfire posted as well for some great info on rogue PvE dps.
tl;dr: you are wrong saying expertise is bad and evisc is good.
Richard Jan 16th 2008 9:28AM
Scootie:
You're wrong. Dead wrong.
Evis is fine on trash... but because it was never scaled post-60 like SS was, Rupture ticks for more damage, every time, than Evis.
I routinely have SS's hit for MORE than a 5pt Evis. Which is garbage.
For a Rogue with 280+ hit and 2pc T4 (which most rogues will take all the way into BT for the set bonus), the optimal boss rotation is 1 CP into a SnD, then 5 CP Rupt. The only time you'd Evis on a boss is when you've popped your CDs and you're generating CPs faster than your SnD/Rupt rotation would use them.
donoteatmikezila Jan 15th 2008 7:22PM
You waste points on Gouge and not even a whole Poison talent, but don't get Riposte?
Matthew Jan 15th 2008 8:20PM
It says up top this is a casual instance/raid build. You shouldn't be parrying much of anything if you have a good tank in that situation, so you won't really need to parry or riposte anything.
But yeah, when you're soloing, Riposte is really handy to have.
rick gregory Jan 15th 2008 7:35PM
I've run with 19/42 with a slightly different talent setup and it's VERY good dps. I'm currently 11/28/23 and am looking at the performance of this vs 19/42 since the 2.3.2 Hemo damage nerf....
It's critical to your damage on this build to use AR and BF whenever they're up and you can safely use them (not breaking CC with BF mainly). If you don't do this, you WILL notice a dps drop off. You also have to keep SnD up all of the time.
Other builds are viable (meaning the don't totally suck) but you WILL give up dps compared to these two. The question is, of course, whether your raid needs every last ounce of damage out of you or not. If you're clearing the instance in a few hours then probably not. If you're seeing close wipes, then this or Combat Hemo are the ways to go.
kidsmoke Jan 15th 2008 8:26PM
All melee needs to watch positioning.
Unless you like when your tank takes a double attack from your nub parry.
Johnson Mitchells Jan 15th 2008 8:50PM
I would take issue with Imp Gouge and Nerves of Steel, but nothing major is wrong with the posted spec, imo.
Combat swords is combat swords - powerful, reliable but perhaps slightly dull to play for an extended period.
Milktub Jan 15th 2008 9:46PM
Not bad ...
But it's this sort of stuff that is why my rogue sits unused.
Why?
Because I'm a purist. Paladins are masters of protection and healing, so they're brought to a raid for just that, not for a lackluster dps tree. Warriors are masters of rage, taunts, motivation, and as such are brought to raids as just that, aka tanks. Hunters are masters of cunning, hunting, trapping and tracking skill, and as such are brought for trapping and hunting skill.
And rogues? Rogues are masters of stealth and surprise attacks. So why is it required of them to spec deeply into the least "rogue-ish" talent tree in order to be deemed raid viable?
andrew.crossland Jan 15th 2008 10:11PM
depending on weapons of course, combat fist/sword is better than just swords 16/45/0, fist weaons tend to have a higher damage range, meaning ur hits that land with +x damage like SS do more damage for the same weapon speed. This is also in the Elitist jerks article that was mentioned in #15. tho u do loose 5 points u could put in more fun places if u wer just fists or swords... but it works great for me - i have galdiator welfare epic weapons and kara drops and blues, but can out dps a fury warrior with gruul/ TK and kara gear, just from the SnD rupture and SS spam.
Also SnD and blade flury stacks woot and with drums of battle adrenalin rush and a +AP trinket u can double ur dps for 15 sec - think curator, the end of gruul etc :)
3amgrind Jan 16th 2008 10:11PM
edit - post 18 from hellshire with elitist jerks forum link, also, no way i could out dps a fury warrior with gruul/tk gear - my bad!
The Fanciest of Pants Jan 15th 2008 11:59PM
This build is great in a raiding environment, but nothing in sub means your going to be an utter joke doing anything that relies on not being spotted in stealth(5-mans, pvp, effective soloing). Personally I don't find it even close to being worth the trade-off. 21/0/40 for life xD
Furien Jan 16th 2008 12:45AM
Without stealth talents you do have to be a little more careful sapping in 5 mans and heroics but that is what Distract is for. I do fine with 20/41/0 in 5 man heroics routinely hitting over 1200 dps on boss fights. I wouldn't call that an "utter joke".
SimpleSurvival Jan 16th 2008 3:33AM
I play a combat sword rogue, but not your traditional variety
I consider myself to be a "Utility" Combat Sword at 0/41/20
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0000000000000000000000253050000050150023211515002530020300000000000
I find that this build is a bit of an assist in a PVP situation, plus grants me easier rogue CC. Thats the Utility bit... Since I'm not hardcore enough to find a decent raiding guild, i'm limited to 5man content and battlegrounds. I have no intention of respeccing whenever i want to switch between the two, so I had to make a compromise build.
For my situation I don't actually NEED more damage. Right now I'm pushing over 500 sustained dps through a 5man, with a crappy tank, i'm basically on autoattack =[
hyos Jan 16th 2008 5:48AM
For a serious raid build, I wonder if any poison talents are necessary. I have an enhancement shaman and combat rogues benefit from Windfury-totem way more than they would from poisons. Generally, one warrior or combat rogue with WF-totem is enough to give the raid higher dmg-output than an Agility-totem for the whole melee-group.
Richard Jan 16th 2008 9:33AM
Hyos:
It certainly is one of those "try it and see if it works better for you" type talents.
Honestly, though, I like putting some points into it - there's always a poison on my OH, because WF procs on the MH. And for those times when the huntards and druids whine about no GoA totem, I'll poison up the MH too...
I hit 1400 DPS on Fathom Lord last night, so it works for me! :D
redpenguin Jan 16th 2008 7:20AM
Imp Poisons is better than vile poisons.
Totems: WF and Agi+Poison are approx equal dps for a rogue in SSC/TK. So what it comes down to is if there is a warrior in the group then WF is better, or if you are against a poison immune boss like hydross. Conversly if you have a feral druid the agi totem is much better for them.
Whoever said weapon expertise was useless in TBC is either an idiot or has not played or read anything about rogues for the last year.
hellshire Jan 16th 2008 8:33AM
I'm going to point you again towards the elitist jerks link I posted. Windfury totem murders any sort of poison + agi totem setup. Essentially, windfury scales with gear, poisons + agi totem are static.
Vile poison is taken over imp poison because you're going to have a full 5 stack of poison on a boss mob within 30 seconds of a boss fight anyways and it's not that hard to keep it up. Thus you might as well up the damage a bit. It's not a huge dps boost, more of a min/max thing.