The Care and Feeding of Warriors: What comes next

The Care and Feeding of Warriors spent some time looking back at 2007 not so long ago, and finds itself looking forward to 2008 and beyond this week. Matthew Rossi wants you to imagine a big swirly tube and either the Stargate or Dr. Who music playing, whichever you prefer. I'm more of a Dr. Who man myself, but as the omnipresent third person narrative device I don't think my opinion is much consulted. It's a hard life being a narrative device. No one ever asks you out for coffee.
As the somewhat emo italic text stated, this week we're going to look forward at where the Warrior class is going, a discussion I quite frankly think will be more interesting in the comments you leave than in my own ramblings. My goal here is mainly to serve as a firestarter, hoping to initiate a few sparks of brilliance from you. As a result, I'm going to just throw my musings and opinions at the wall here and see what sticks with you guys, what you accept and what you reject. After all, in the end it's the players who will ultimately determine what warriors will become, as they're the ones who'll chose what they do with their characters.
My first thought is, looking over the past few years, the trend is that warrior successes in PvP tend to be followed by large nerfs. So PvP warriors are almost certainly going to be nerfed in a rather large way if they remain dominant in PvP. I expect mace spec to see the lion's share of this nerfing, perhaps changed into an entirely unrecognizable form removing stuns entirely, but mortal strike is also up for a few changes. It will probably be safe for the next few months, as they just gave a similar effect to hunters and to change MS now would mean having to change that, too, but it will most likely come in whatever patch lays the preparations for Wrath of the Lich King. If not these, then some change to a fundamental warrior DPS/PvP mechanic, similar to the way weapon speed and rage generation were normalized.
Warriors with better gear still, despite nerfs like rage normalization, perform at a much higher rate than before they achieved it. My tauren warrior does much, much better in PvP now, even against opponents who substantially outgear him. In my biased experience, right around the time I start winning in PvP is when the nerfs start coming.
Tanking in the future!
Warriors are and will probably continue to be the baseline on which other classes and their tanking abilities are determined. The effectiveness of any other tank will be compared to warriors - how good are they at multi-mob tanking compared to warriors? How well can they take a tremendous beating from a melee boss compared to a warrior? How effective are they at total mitigation, magic based damage, gimmick fights, snap aggro, tauntless mobs, etc etc etc. I see Paladins and Druids coming forward more at MT positions and, with the Death Knight, a new form of tanking will arrive that is superior to baseline warrior tanking in some respects but lacks their general tanking viability in order to preserve the balance. Eventually I expect all other tanks will shake out as being better than warriors in a specific aspect of tanking, and what will keep warriors in their accustomed tanking role will be this baseline function. The class may well become the #2 tank in every possible contingency... less effective than paladins at AoE, less effective than druids at massive burst damage fights, less effective than death knights at (let's pretend we know anything about how they will tank) pure avoidance. What the warrior will have is a wider range of abilities and greater depth in their assortment of tools for both aggro and mitigation, filling a tanking role similar to the way priests fill all the possible healing strategies.
Furthermore, I think what's really going to keep warriors tanking is that there's a great community of theorycrafters, old hands and so on in the warrior class that have spent a lot of time studying tanking, going out and doing the job and reporting back on what works and what doesn't. This and general expectation from other players will keep warriors tanking at least in five mans and heroics (most people don't really sit down and consider 'what is the best tank for this particular instance' or even 'what is the best tank for this particular boss' the way a raid group will) but in raids, you'll see more tank swapping as the four different tank classes are used to min-max the chances for raid success. I expect, in fact, that the idea of a 'main tank' will recede to a degree, perhaps becoming more of a raid-leader's title than actually being the person who tanks most of a raid's encounters. You'll see specific tanks being used because their particular abilities make them most suited to a particular fight, perhaps even leading groups to bring a tank of each tanking class or more of the already seen swapping of specific tanks in and out of a raid to ensure they have the right one for a particular fight. And yes, this will diminish the importance of raiding warrior tanks. But with four tanking classes in the expansion, I don't see how it could be otherwise, as raiding guilds are going to bring the people to the fight who can most easily get them through it. I think warriors will adapt to this as they always have.
Beyond the veil of time comes the DPS warrior of tomorrow!
One thing I expect we'll see as a result of the expansion is, as before, warriors being one of the most dominant classes in terms of population. Since we have so many warriors now, many of those warriors will be raced through the expansion to reach level 80 and begin the new endgame, whether that means killing Malygos or facing Arthas or what have you. However, with tanking now being split between four classes and warriors being the baseline tanking class (perhaps best at single target tanking as they have been up to now) we're going to see a shift in what warriors are used for in raids. If raiding continues as it has been, there will be a lot of fights with no CC or limited CC (perhaps some shackling or ice trapping, the occasional sheep or sap allowable) and the easiest way around such a situation is to have offtanks, characters that can tank when necessary and who can provide DPS when tanking isn't necessary. I expect to see warriors, feral druids and perhaps retribution paladins (ret/prot hybrids, perhaps) taking on some of these roles.
I expect that rogues will continue to be the highest DPS melee class, but we've seen that warriors can be competitive in the role of melee DPS, sometimes even coming out on top in specific fights. With the changes to fury in 2.3 that allowed whirlwind to hit with both weapons and gave fury warriors a greatly extended sweeping strikes, it's still my belief that fury warriors are being aimed at the 'melee AoE' niche and will be used in that role on trash pulls as well as being expected to get and keep a set of tanking gear for specific fights when, alongside other classes capable of tanking, they will be performing in this role as an OT/CC solution. In general I expect fury to become the 'swiss army knife' spec for raiding, providing boosted shouts for a melee group, doing AoE damage with sweeping strikes and whirlwind, and serving as offtanks when there's no other form of CC available.
The future is a season 6 boot stepping on your face forever - warriors in PvP
No amount of nerfing is ever going to get rid of PvP warriors. Warriors continued to PvP when the Arcanite Reaper lost its king of the BG's role following weapon normalization. Warriors continued to PvP when rage was normalized. Warriors will continue to find ways to excel in PvP no matter what happens to the class. If the entire arms tree was removed tomorrow and a new tree named "Carebear" was added, warriors would find a way to use Carebear spec to smash faces in PvP.
For one thing, PvP is extremely warrior friendly. We have high health, meaning we can survive a high DPS attack from a caster longer, letting healers do their job and keep us up. We have talents that specifically allow us to resist or reflect damaging spells if we're fast on a macro. We have high armor, so we can reduce incoming damage from physical damage classes. We have a good assortment of abilities to close the gap in combat and to prevent others from running from us. Even if you took away mace spec tomorrow, there would still be warriors atop the PvP ranks, screaming incoherently and smashing faces with whatever weapon seemed best to them.
There have always been warriors in PvP, making videos that conveniently leave out all the sheepings, ice trappings, gougings, death coilings, intimidation stunnings, paladin bubbles and so on. There always will be warriors in PvP. They're not going anywhere. They will be nerfed, and they will keep doing it anyway.
What else lies in store for the warrior of tomorrow? Well, I expect those protection spec soloing improvements, as one of the ways Blizzard will have learned from The Burning Crusade. I expect that the new talents for each tree, if new talents come in, will help refine each spec and I would be very surprised if fury didn't get more AoE damage options, perhaps even a way to AoE in CC without breaking it or a Bladestorm ability. I would not be surprised to see Prot get more DPS and I'm outright praying that the static threat abilities get a major threat buff or an overhaul to the entire system. And maybe, just maybe, Arms will finally get the ability to dual wield 2h weapons. Yes, it would be overpowered if they could DW 2h weapons at the highest iLevels, but a level 70 warrior DWing Sulfuras and Ashkandi wouldn't be OP and could squeeze just a little more use out of those older weapons they'd otherwise have to ditch.
Okay, I know the dual wielding 2h'ers isn't going to happen. Let a man dream!
Next week, either we talk about dealing damage in PvE and PvP, or we talk about stupid warrior tricks, those weird uses for warrior abilities that aren't really powerful or overwhelming, just fun or odd.
Filed under: Druid, Death Knight, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Expansions, Odds and ends, Analysis / Opinion, Patches, Warrior, Priest, Paladin, Arena






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
coop Jan 23rd 2008 7:08PM
"Zhalseran said...
While I don't play a warrior..."
I stopped reading there.
Zhalseran Jan 27th 2008 2:18PM
Thanks, if thats the kind of attitude you have, I don't think I want you replying to me anyways =)
Alf Mar 10th 2008 1:21AM
In all honesty, I see a great deal of hybridizing my warrior tree in the future. I recently grabbed an s3 main hand axe and a off hand sword, then proceded to respec to axe(5)/sword(5) spec and down the tree to ms. I put some points into fury, Let me say this, this spec is amazing. 39% crit non buff with my mainhand, pluss 5% to proc an extra attack on my already 700 white hit offhand? Ill take it over 2handers anyday. Finding ways around some damage nerfs are easy, just need some gear and a good spec.
Nossy Jan 18th 2008 3:08PM
More Warrior nerf? Geesus, seriously warriors are not that effective without a healer - blah. More nerfs for warriors mean less effect for 1v1 gameplay. Which is already HORRIBLE. Warriors are by no mean OP. Mace spec? Laughable. A stun or two for 3 sec? big deal, that's like one lucky cc that is base on proc. A hunter can trap you, stun you, slow you down, etc so much cc abilities. If anything they should nerf Druids (Cyclone and Root are ridiculous). If Blizz decide to nerf warriors even further, I'd quit.
What warriors really need is some sort of special range ability. At least just one (Hunters have raptor strike). Everything else is fine. Except I'd like them to move Improved Intercept and Death Wish back to the Fury tree - it's just fk'ed up for Fury warriors. I'm an Arms warrior, but they way most MS warriors spec (33/28 or 33/25/3), they can obtain both those abilities.
Matthew Rossi Jan 18th 2008 3:10PM
I'm not endorsing any nerfs, but I think by the volume of complaints on the forums (much much worse than things were before the Weapon Speed or rage nerfs) that a nerf is almost inescapable. I think the Arms tree is, at this point, just about perfect, but I still expect it to be nerfed.
Epoc Jan 18th 2008 3:56PM
lol uhm no don't remove sweeping strikes. Arms warriors can keep deathwish. I'm a fury warrior when i spec dps, since the spec changes I've done even more dps in raids. I've outdone our top damaging players, I've cranked out over 800 dps on single targets, during the ilhoof fight I managed a sustained 1200+ dps. I have 2 pieces of SSC gear (a neck and bracers) and 2 pieces of the new badge gear (gloves and belt). Whirlwind hitting with both weapons and sweeping strikes has made the fury warrior what he was supposed to be, a whirling raging tornado of steel capable of annihilation. Even as a fury/prot hybrid (for OT'ing) i can bring 600ish dps to the table.
If I have good heals in a BG, I'm wrecking everything insight, mages/locks beware even the arena geared warriors have a tough time with me. Please oh Please leave my fury spec intact =)
Alch Jan 18th 2008 3:14PM
I quit playing my warrior in pvp because I got tired of being frozen or rooted to the ground and killed while I was powerless to even hit back.
I think warrior pvp is about perfect right now. They hit hard but they have a big weakness so they need their healer or a Pally to free them when they get in trouble.
Matthew Rossi Jan 18th 2008 3:19PM
Unfortunately, while I agree with you, perception trumps reality for a great man players in this game.
frank Jan 20th 2008 1:08AM
Heh, try being a mage/warlock/priest getting hit by a rogue (or to some extent a warrior). At least you're able to look around and scratch your ass, that's gotta be better than being stunned for an entire fight.
And in my experience, getting ranged on a warrior is just an excuse to get charged.
Honorshammer Jan 18th 2008 3:37PM
"a great community of theorycrafters, old hands and so on in the warrior class that have spent a lot of time studying tanking, going out and doing the job and reporting back on what works and what doesn't."
These communities exists among many classes, including Protection Paladins (MainTankadin). Many Warriors rerolled Paladin and Druid tanks and brought that experience into those communities (Gestalt, Lore, and Joanadark were all pre-BC Warriors who brought this experience to the Paladin community).
"perhaps even leading groups to bring a tank of each tanking class."
To me, a Protection Paladin, this would be a wonderful conclusion.
I want to stand WITH my Warriors, as a tanking TEAM. I want to stand as equals, neither class being obsoleted or deemed undesirable by the mere presense of the other.
Some of my best friends are Warriors and every step of my Tanking career, it's been a Warrior who has shown me the way.
Savant Jan 18th 2008 3:40PM
Small changes over time have turned the once mighty protection warrior into what many consider a third rate tank. Protection warriors are has-beens, and a waste of a raid spot now. (My main used to be a protection warrior)
Protection paladins now have move overall health (with their 10% talent, versus 5% for warriors - only exception is Tauren with their racial) and the protection paladin shield block skill blocks 4 attacks over 10 seconds versus 2 attacks over 6 seconds for protection warriors. Their armor can equal that of a similarly geared protection warrior, and their threat is not rage dependant - meaning faster, more consistent and more overall threat. The protection paladin can also AOE tank a pack of mobs with ease, not to mention their versatility in delivering useful buffs to the raid, and the ability to throw on a heal set and help out when extra tanks are not needed for a given fight. I could go on, but you get the idea.
The feral druid is also a class that can surpass protection warriors in both health and armor level, and their threat mechanism is superior to the protection warrior, even though both are rage based. While the advantages of a feral druid over a protection warrior aren't necessarily huge, what makes them more desirable is their versatility. The ability to throw on a DPS set and do significant damage in cat form is something the protection warrior cannot match. Like a paladin, the druid can also throw on a heal set when not needed to tank/DPS if extra healing is needed for a specific fight. Add in buffs and the ability to battle-resurrect/innervate team mates, a well-geared feral druid is quite desirable.
Protection warriors have very little versatility. They can tank a single target, yes, and that is it. They can't AOE tank, and they can't do any kind of meaningful DPS. They offer nothing to the raid other than the ability to single tank mobs. All warrior buffs and debuffs can be applied by DPS warriors, and the improved versions of these buffs/debuffs are in the arms and fury trees. NONE are in the protection tree. DPS warriors can also off-tank in a pinch with a set of tank gear, while not sacrificing their ability to DPS the rest of the time. The recent change to tactical mastery will allow an arms/fury warrior to generate significantly increased threat from Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst when in defensive Stance.
There is really nothing a protection warrior can do that a protection paladin or feral druid can't do better. Some people many mention shield wall and last stand, but the extra 5% health of a protection paladin with ardent defender certainly negates any significant advantage that might carry.
Where does that leave protection warriors? Overall, I suspect the only reason they still have a job in many guilds is since they have been around for ages and are well respected. As a guild-master I have decided (and the membership agrees) that we will no longer recruit protection warriors. We will keep the ones we have, but will not replace any that leave. We have also offered to pay for and give gear priority to any protection warrior who wishes to respec DPS. We are NOT forcing anyone to do so though. The ones that have changed are really happy with their choice though, and they have had a blast with PvP in the Arena. (something they could never do before)
What really is the final nail in the coffin for the protection warrior is the up and coming Death Knight. The choice of Blizzard to add ANOTHER tank class to an already overcrowded roster is really the end for protection warriors. The Death Knight has been described by Blizzard as having the same tanking viability as a feral druid (which depends on high health and armor - the Death Knight won't use shields.) However, the magic abilities and DPS of the Death Knight will certainly secure a spot in any raid. Let's remember that in most fights there is never a situation where you would need 4 primary spec 'tanks'. So if you have 4 tanking classes, then you need to look at which ones you can bring that can offer versatility when NOT tanking. The protection warrior, sadly, is at the bottom of that list. Short of a significant talent/skill overhaul, the protection warrior will likely become a thing of the past.
Jordrah Jan 23rd 2008 12:43PM
wow you could've written a topic yourself lol
h8rain Jan 18th 2008 5:06PM
I have to agree with you on the feral druid comments. I don't have a warrior, but my main is a feral druid. If a DPS is needed, I am called upon, just put on DPS gear. Tank needed? Again I am pst'ed and I put on tank gear. The leader of the Pack buff, plus if I am DPS'ing I can battle rez.
I actually feel bad for warriors, because I see them being passed up all the time. Plus I can get very high armor and stamina without having to be epic'ed out (but of course that always helps). Not that I am wanting a nerf (and who would), but there is still some bad imbalance in the game. Kinda the same situation with priests competing against Healadins. Resto druid are pretty much 2nd to them, to those, not in healing but in case of the unfortunate occasional wipe, a druid can bring everyone back.
Kal Jan 18th 2008 5:19PM
This is just wrong.
Protection warriors take less damage than paladins. They put out more single-target threat than a paladin of the same gear level and can gear themselves to put out significantly more threat than a paladin can at the highest levels. The big thing they can do that paladins simply can't is deal with fear and spellcasters; paladins lack spell reflect, and that makes certain bosses simply untankable. They lack fear resistance, and that makes other bosses very, very difficult. Finally, because a paladin is mana based some bosses will be difficult due to their nature; Maiden is such an example. Any other fights that silence or drain mana are similar. Because of this, warriors are necessary for progression. You can't do RoS phase 2 without a warrior tank, and a warrior tank is better in a lot of other places.
Paladins right now are kings of 5-mans. AoE tanking makes so many of the 5-man content so much easier and faster. This is especially true as you outgear the instance; a paladin's gear and mitigation scales so that they can draw more and more mobs at one time without dying. That means faster runs. That does not mean they are best in raids overall, and there are significant weaknesses in the paladin tank that make sure that's the case. And it certainly doesn't equate to their being the best against bosses.
It's good that paladin tanks are actually getting enough buffs (and really, the only buff they got was more HP) such that they're considered viable for MTing most encounters and are actually preferable in some situations (ZA timed is very, very hard without a paladin tank, for instance) but let's not conflate that to their being somehow superior or even equal to warriors at all points.
Alex Rubin Jan 18th 2008 5:53PM
Actually, paladins have two talents which give them a total of +16% hp.
LJ Jan 18th 2008 3:58PM
I have a fury warrior and a prot warrior, and both are now collecting dust while I level a different class. Since my guild disbanded several months ago, it is nearly impossible to find a new home because of the points already listed. Guilds are no longer recruiting prot warriors. What's the point when other classes offer more versatility. It really is too bad what is happening to our once mighty class.
frank Jan 20th 2008 1:18AM
heh, you're welcome in my guild! I don't get the QQing about warriors personally. I don't have a warrior but as a feral druid, a lot of times I like a warrior MT and me as OT. If for no other reason than the "Oh @*%#" abilities that a warrior has and my cuddly bear doesn't.
B Lee Jan 18th 2008 4:07PM
Future changes to the Warrior class has been a very hot topic in the Warrior forums as of late, with the expansion looming on the horizon.
Warriors have always been on a massive pendulum when it comes to PvP and our place in it. We blow, then we dominate, then we blow again. The cycle never stops. I find that in group pvp, where coordination is harder to attain, Warriors annihilate opposition with the right back up. But in focused PvP such as arenas, I find myself very much on the short end of the stick compared to other classes. Frost mages have a billion ways to simply root us in place for a solid 8 seconds as they train us around. Mace stun rogues put out very high damage without us being able to properly return attacks. Druids ... well, most Warriors by now have experienced the frustration of being taken apart by a Druid I'm sure.
Overall, our talent trees are good, but they still have room for some revision. Our trees have defined "best paths". That's why 95% of warriors have the same tree in their niche. Improved Rend - are you kidding me? Imagine if Imp Mortal Strike would increase the healing cut by 3/6/10% or something (move it to the 35-40 tier), or if our 41st talent point would grant us Bestial Wrath ala Hunter's Beast Mastery for 15 seconds. How about a Rampage that scaled with gear? Our "ultimate" talents aren't very ultimate right now. Arms is a great PvP tree ... until 31-33 points. Then we just move over to Fury. Deep Arms viability would give warriors a lot more to think about: Enrage v. more solid Arms talents - those are the kinds of decisions that warriors should be having to make. Ask Mages and their Frost tree - it's loaded with great talents! So many that they need to think hard about what they want to accomplish before settling on them. I know our Prot tree grants that to some extent, but Arms definitely does not.
Some Warriors have also expressed disappointment that their "tanking" role doesn't carry over to PvP. Some have suggested modifying Taunt such that the taunted target causes reduced damage to all targets except the Taunter for a short duration. This doesn't seem terribly unreasonable, does it? Also in the tanking department, I think that we need more charges on our shield block. Improved Shield Block - 2 attacks blocked - is great if you're tanking one mob. But take on more than one and shield block is consumed almost instantly. Additional charges would be a welcome change.
Berserker Stance also needs another look. There was a time when 3% crit was very significant. But now, taking 10% more damage is a very high cost in order to have a talent-free fear breaker and 3% more crit.
Finally, our spell-countering abilities could use a change. Pummel and Shield Bash shouldn't be on the global cooldown, and Spell Reflect is extremely expensive - 25 rage - for something that will be removed by an instant ice-lance, followed by an actual spell. If you read the tooltip for Spell Reflect, it says "Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you. Lasts 5 sec." Since we can raise our shield to block spells, why not have Shield Block mitigate incoming spell damage (consumes its charges of course)? I haven't thought too much about the wider ramifications of doing this but I mean if we're raising our shield to block *something*, why can't it be spells? It's not like Warriors are holding the shield at a specific angle or something to reflect them - we don't have the Intellect for that anyway.
The changes I'm mentioning are kind of making a single point: let Warriors use all of their abilities. Spamming the MS/Whirlwind buttons can't be all there is to it. Let us change stances so that we can access viable abilities for both PvP and PvE situations. Give us variety in playstyle and talent spec.
Alch Jan 18th 2008 4:21PM
I think a lot of the issues everyone brought up would be fixed by making gear a bigger part of tanking rather than being Proc specced. As many pointed out a Druid can change gear and go from a great tank to dps cat in a few seconds.
Letting gear and stance do a bit more for the tank rather than having to use all your talent points in a tree to tank would go a long way.
I have not played my warrior in months. I watched a friend Bear tank and just realized that I was working twice as hard to hold less aggro and block dmg. Add the fact that I could not go out and farm without respecing made me just reroll a Warlock.
Fearless Jan 18th 2008 4:57PM
"Letting gear and stance do a bit more for the tank rather than having to use all your talent points in a tree to tank would go a long way."
Well said. Tanking ought to be a "core ability" of the warrior class. Instead, one almost has to have 45 points in Protection to be on par with ferals and protadins; and each talent tree pigeonholes warriors completely: PvP, PvE-DPS, or Tank (and good luck doing anything else, ever).
Hybrid warriors were viable before TBC (I used to be one); I thought they would be viable again when aggro changes to MS/BT came out, but no such luck. A hybrid build just ends up being inferior at everything.