The PvE + PvP instance
by David Bowers 
Jan 19th 2008 at 1:01PM
The first existing instance your mind jumps to is likely Alterac Valley, but this new instance would be different in that the players are not marching towards two separate goals, split up into two offensive and defensive groups, but rather going after the very same bosses and getting in each others way to a certain extent. Obviously it would also be a lot smaller than AV too, and, like Arenas, based from the beginning on teamwork with your friends rather than random groupings of strangers.
Obviously balancing such a battle would be very difficult, and the losers should feel as though they gain something of value even if they don't beat the other team. When I imagine this sort of instance, I envision something like a maze where players can not only meet up at the last boss, but also sneak around and PvP with each other the whole way through. Different sections of the instance could be designed to provide advantages to different sorts of classes, whether melee or ranged, damage or healing, and monsters could be designed to interact with the two groups of players in some very dynamic ways. Perhaps the bosses and maps could even vary a bit from battle to battle to keep everything fresh.
A Blizzard representative showed up in the original thread to say that he liked the idea too, and hopes that someday we might be able to see something like it. What do you think about it, and what elements would you pay special attention to in order to make it work?
Filed under: PvP, Instances, Bosses, Forums, Battlegrounds, Arena
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Combatc87 Jan 19th 2008 1:14PM
I'd like to see a BG like the Unreal Assault maps where one team is on offense and one is on defense. The offense team has to capture certain objectives along the way, which also moves their spawn point, before a timer runs out. When the assaulting team wins, the two teams switch places and the second team has to complete the assault faster than the first team. Think of a half AV, but with a timer.
Kuroyume Jan 19th 2008 1:17PM
there's a korean game that has something similar, and the winning group owns that dungeon for the week, and gets to collect taxes on loot...
http://rappelz.gpotato.com/
Eternalpayn Jan 19th 2008 1:41PM
I definately like this idea, but if it were 5-man, pickup groups would be virtually impossible. What are the odds of a PuG having a tank, healer, and 3 DPS? It would almost have to be team based, or premade only. Or, they could have it a 10 on 10, in which case Pugs would manage slightly better. Then you'd have your AFKers drifting in, however...
Nodor Jan 21st 2008 9:35AM
Dark Age of Camelot has had PvP raid instances for years.
bloodlight Jan 21st 2008 10:23AM
Blizzard has yet to balance basic PVP is any form, You really believe they can balance this. Just as any other PVP game, which this really is with the PvE as a throw in to add small bit of flavor, certain classes will dominate and other will be basically useless.
mattarin Jan 19th 2008 2:05PM
i like that idea alot but i think each side might try and skip the small bosses so only make the final boss spawn after the small bosses are dead.
i also have a bg in mind. how about just deathmatch and team death match. like alliance vs horde in or an alliance group vs another alliance, horde group vs horde group or every man for them selfs but on thier own faction. that way there is no objective and ppl will not blame other ppl too much for losing.
Rob Jan 19th 2008 2:25PM
I like the idea. Obviously it will be built for premades. A guild event would be perfect for this. Better yet, you can have multiple brackets, ie to 70, to 60, to 50, etc. Add a timer and some blue loot at the end and you have a winner.
Dave Jan 19th 2008 2:38PM
It's a good start...
I think a proper implementation would eliminate the PvE "bosses" since that would carry an expectation of loot, and just have staged PVP skirmishes. PVE "PVP" encounters bring in people who have no idea HOW to PVP in general, and so they don't understand how to win... and most people who don't want to learn how to PVP should be discouraged from wasting everyone else's time in BG's.
Here's a different idea... a series of 3+ skirmishes, initially being PVP only. You all start at "room 3" and when you die in room 3 you're sent to your own room 2. (imagine 3 being the middle and the layout being 1-2-3-2-1 in a linear type objective series. Much like a CS match where once you die you're really dead until the round is over. The team that wins the room moves on to the other team's room 2, and so on. The BG ends when one team makes it to the 1st room. Honor is gained on HK's and there'd be bonus honor (like a flag cap) for every room captured. In theory it'd be pretty quick for each room, since even a 40-man PVP battle isn't going to last THAT long if people can't zerg back into the battle 30 seconds after they die. And put a cap of 30 minutes on the thing no matter what, just so it can't last forever. Extra bonus honor if you capture all 3 rooms and end the BG early. Maybe double HK points for every HK you're alive for, and you still get some HK honor if you're the guy who happens to be wearing cloth and dies first.
I'd just like to see some CS-like action at some point. AV is getting there with the penalty for dying contributing to your team's potential to lose... but it's still such that you can just jump back into the game immediately and death is no big deal.
I'd also like to see gear-neutral BG's where everyone of a particular class gets outfitted with a specific set of gear (tailored to class of course) rather than the usual imbalance of geared vs ungeared players. Pretty unlikely, but I'd like the option sometimes of being on an even playing field with my alts , since it's pretty impossible to do the honor grind on 3 characters simultaneously.
BG's and non-Arena PVP can be fixed. They just need to hire someone at Blizzard with a shred of creativity and the balls to push their ideas through and make them happen.
rick gregory Jan 19th 2008 2:55PM
"
I think a proper implementation would eliminate the PvE "bosses" since that would carry an expectation of loot, and just have staged PVP skirmishes. PVE "PVP" encounters bring in people who have no idea HOW to PVP in general, and so they don't understand how to win... and most people who don't want to learn how to PVP should be discouraged from wasting everyone else's time in BG's."
the whole idea is that this ISN'T just another BG. Yeah, those would be nice too, but the thread is proposing something that's a combination of an instance and a BG.
It could be fun or frustrating for there reasons you put forward . I wonder who many people want to do both PvP and PvE in one instance - i continually hear people say they hate instances love BGs and vice versa.
Eric Iberri Jan 19th 2008 2:47PM
Has anyone tried the beta key yet? I'm getting an error: Beta Code Does Not Exist
Eric Iberri Jan 19th 2008 2:56PM
Bah. Damn thing. Guild Wars has this, sort of. I haven't played it in a long time, but when you got your pvp group together for the Hall of Heroes, you first had to do a PVE encounter to move on to the PVP. It was pretty cool.
Benor Jan 19th 2008 3:06PM
It could work. But I think it would need some conditions. I like the idea of only allowing the final boss to spawn once the smaller bosses are dead, but I think you should split people up so they start on opposite ends. There should paths between each section, so people can cross over to try PvP on the other team, but it should be a difficult thing to do, and risk slowing your own group down to slow or stops theirs. I
also think that the bosses should swap sides randomly...so if there are four small bosses and one final boss, the four small bosses change position and sides That way, the Alliance isn't always fighting boss A and B, while the Horde take on boss C and D. That would also give people more incentive to run it multiple times, since luck of the draw wouldn't just be in the loot table's result, but in which loot table the game would be drawing from.
Aaron Nowack Jan 19th 2008 3:40PM
As possibly the only person ever to have really enjoyed the "PvE race" aspect of AV over the actual PvP element of it, I approve of this idea.
Luclan Jan 19th 2008 3:58PM
Instead of starting at opposite ends it makes since to have to parallel hallways running up along side each other and then have a big room at the end connecting them with the final boss. This would allow for a possible display showing how far each group is in comparison to the other and would allow a few connecting hallways with which to pvp before the end boss. Another idea that occurs is having a 5v5 but one team is turned into essentially adds and are dropped into the fight at a certain time/event (think sons of rag) and the other 5 must down the adds while holding the boss at bay.
Fun ideas.
Sakerin Jan 19th 2008 5:02PM
BG queues not long enough? Enjoy spending unreal amounts of times putting together ultimately disappointing PUGs? Try our new Wait Forever (tm) Battle Instance with wait times guaranteed to be in the hours and results unsatisfying at best.
Wired Jan 19th 2008 5:12PM
Sounds like the Catacombs from Dark Age of Camelot. They had a huge PvP realm (w/ catapults, castles, ballistas, etc.) where each of the 3 realms would fight for various things. Which ever one was winning at the time would unlock their realm's door to the Catacombs. If you were in the Catacombs, and the door was lost, you could still get out.
Many grps could be in at the same time, and interact with each other. After getting to the middle, fighting past the enemies and players from other realms, you could make it to another realm's door (but never walk out of it). Then, you could let the surprise attacks commence :)
Ghen Jan 20th 2008 7:49AM
And Darkness Falls before it.
Meira Jan 19th 2008 6:12PM
It's a really neat idea. Combining PvE and PvP in such a fashion as proposed will make everyone happy. There or only two things that bother me if such feature is implemented:
a) PuG's... will be a nightmare. Premade or die trying.
b) Balance. Heavy word on this game. PvP'ers have a obvious advantage on survivability (may it be stamina wise or the resillience factor), while PvE'ers have the burst factor to bring bosses down faster. How it will be balanced, knowing that a PvE focused team will be more efficient, thought that a PvP focused team might smite the other team before downing the last boss?
Eternalpayn Jan 19th 2008 7:11PM
Guess people will have to find ways of balancing by having some PvE spec party members and some PvPers? Which would be cool, too. Or PvE spec in PvP gear, vise versa
Asswipe Johnsons Jan 19th 2008 11:12PM
Ugh, whatever. There are, in fact, some of us who couldn't give less of a crap about PvP, and frankly I'm sick of the extent to which PvP is taking over this game. Didn't it used to be basically just occasional faction raids and then Battlegrounds for a little PvP fun? Now Blizzard can't stop f#$%ing with my PvE experience because they need to constantly "rebalance" the classes for the sake of the god-damned arenas. Why can't people who want to fight each other in-game stick to Halo and sh$% like that, the f#$%ing degenerates? Anyway, that's my rant. This new idea sounds to me like just another way to take away from the part of the game I like, plus it sounds like an awesome window for Blizzard to start making tons of new crucial quests that force players to PvP. F#$%ing enough already.