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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsA year with no new 25-man content
by Dan O'Halloran 
Jan 24th 2008 at 11:00AM
And this is where Lore, a level 70 Blood Elf Paladin whose guild has had Illidan on farm for the past three and half months, now sits. For 25-man raiders, clearing Black Temple hasn't been the real challenge. Finding a new goal worthy of their time, dedication and uber-gear has been the task just out of their reach. And Lore's guild has been suffering for it with attrition, disinterest and players leaving the game entirely.
The news that new high end content is coming is great news, but it can't come fast enough for elite raiders who aren't quite the minority they used to be. WoW Jutsu shows that more than 6% of raiding guilds have entered Black Temple already.
Has Blizzard made the right choice by ignoring this group of players in favor of cranking out PvP improvements, 10-man instances and Cooking Daily Quests? Or has Blizzard dropped the ball for a good chunk of its player base?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Raiding, The Burning Crusade
Reader Comments (Page 7 of 7)
Ruthland Jan 26th 2008 8:20AM
How about blizzard just allow the old world instances like AQ and MC get upgraded to heroic's. This would really be a matter of updating loots and HP's on mobs. All the textures are there. Imagine running stocks, BRD or Scholo on heroic. It would also get some of the players back into Azeroth. This i would think (not being a programmer) would be a dam fast way to offer alot of new challenges and also put some of the resist gear back in the mix. Remember the days you couldnt get a MC run without a certain amount of fire resist gear.
Just a thought.
Nekrogasm Jan 24th 2008 6:45PM
I wish blizzard would stagger the content better. they could definitely pace things better by coming up with a realistic release time frame. there should be something new to raid at the start of every arena season be it a 10 man or 25 man. there are plenty of instances to see and bosses to kill without having to worry about them pushing it out to fast. i am all for new content. i'd like to see uldum made into a raid before northrend. have no attunement except the quest out of Uldaman which anyone can solo by themselves. maybe have another after to keep the storyline going. just my 2 cents.
slux Jan 24th 2008 9:53PM
"I do not hear hardcore raiders complaining about the new casual content, why must you complain about the 25 man?"
Haha, you must have not read the article you're replying to then since it is exactly that.
"I believe the average is 17 hours. Your "hardcore" raider w/ Illidan on farm, however, will raid for 8-10 hours per week. We are not all nerds in the basement, but just players who know how to play the game. The main reason 97% have not seem BT is beacause 97% of the playerbase sucks at videogames. Who needs to go outside now?"
For reference, could you also post your raid & farm times per week before you managed to get BT on farm? It can be skill, it can be being able to gather 25 average skilled people who are willing to expand large amounts of time to the game. Either way the point still stands that 1-5% is an extremely small part of subscribers to have major focus on.
Only in MMORPGs do people apparently expect to be given more if they rush thru what is offered in the game as fast as they can. Any other game and you'll be happily moving on to other games, waiting for the expansion, the sequel etc. I really doubt having the hardcore raiders that cleared the game stop their subscription would actually be any sort of a casualty for Blizzard. Even if these people were quitting temporarily or otherwise for bigger and better things in droves, the big raid content would still be there to dream about for the majority.
MartinC Jan 24th 2008 9:58PM
Haha, 5% of the WoW population has nothing to do because they have completed all PvE content. Grats to them. WowJutsu doesn't even cover all players, only those that have petitioned to have their PvE data mined, so I would guess the number is closer to 1%.
Now, back to the 99% of us that actually still play the game.
Nekrogasm Jan 24th 2008 10:21PM
@Bellimi
One thing which the "more content for casuals" crowd seems to repetitively neglect in their arguments is that casual players do not NEED more content. There is a lot of content in this game, so much so that a casual player will not see all of it. How often does the casual player log on and say to his/herself "I have nothing to do?" For the hardcore raider, the answer is is much more often.
I don't really care if the "casual" type of player won't see all of the content. That is their problem if they do not in my opinion. They obviously have made other choices with what they do with their time so their whining is pretty much irrelevant.
Krianna Jan 25th 2008 2:35AM
Problem: "Casuals" these days have no problem getting through all the 5 mans in a year's time.
Far more of them are ready for more five or ten mans than are ready for more 25 mans-- by wowjitsu, 97% of characters have hit Kara.
As opposed to "almost" 7% into the black temple.
So... more stuff for all but 3% of the population, or more for only 7%?
PeeWee Jan 25th 2008 4:03AM
"Far more of them are ready for more five or ten mans than are ready for more 25 mans-- by wowjitsu, 97% of characters have hit Kara."
No, 97% of the 2.4 million characters in the Wowjutsu database have hit Kara. That represents less than 25% of the playerbase.
And remember, there are 10 million ACCOUNTS, I don't even want to guess how many characters there are.
npm Jan 25th 2008 12:55AM
I actually think it'd be good to get rid of 10 and 25 man raids. Just having progressively more difficult 5 mans. That way, you could come home from work and conceivably be able to accomplish something without having to find 20 other people with the right gear and experience to do something.
ihs Jan 25th 2008 9:48PM
@103 -- profitability has nothing to do with serving the majority. Quality has nothing to do with serving the majority. "Let's all drive Ford Tauruses and not BMW's , after all the majority will never own a BMW...."
The game is diverse and should support different play styles if it is going to stay vibrant. Adding rare content adds to the depth and richness of the game experience. Casual raiding is a fun , community-oriented way to spend your endgame. Some aren't prepared for the knowledge or time required, but it really isn't all that bad (less than most spend watching TV each week).
I find it funny most of my non-raiding friends complain about the emphasis on the endgame, yet we have this saying it's the opposite. Blizz can't win.
Bellemi Jan 25th 2008 8:35AM
@Krianna May I remind you that only 13% of ranked wowjutsu guilds have killed Zul'Jin. So going by your own "content for majority over minority" argument, blizzard should not make any more ten mans either?
Also, wowjustsu only shows rankings for 2,381,868 people at current. This is not because "only 20% of players have entered kara" as some may claim, but rather because it only ranks players in the US and EU. There are 2.5 mil subscribers US and 2 million EU.
People also should not be so quick to claim "I'll never see it!" If you really want to see the content, either spend two hours on a theorycrafting website or join a better guild. Believe it or not, BT guilds ARE recruiting!!! With no new content for 8 months they are often struggling to hold on to their playerbase.
Basy Jan 25th 2008 10:12AM
Well I don't know. We had this debate once in guild chat that if WoW was a single player game, everyone would "beat" it by now. Try telling 25 people to jump, will they do it at the same time? The game isn't hard, it's just about managing the whole lot of coordination.
It's not about having WoW as a 2nd job really, our guild killed Illidan in November for the 1st time, we raid 4 hours a session 4 times a week - although nowadays we managed to shrink it into 2 raids a week - which basically means 8 hrs of raiding per week. I know people who watch TV more than that and nobody labels it a 2nd job.
slux Jan 25th 2008 10:29AM
Bellemi: "Believe it or not, BT guilds ARE recruiting!!!"
Joining a guild that already beat BT would not in my opinion really constitute experiencing the content as intended. easy-mode content with people who are already farming it is terribly unexciting...
Basy: "we raid 4 hours a session 4 times a week - although nowadays we managed to shrink it into 2 raids a week - which basically means 8 hrs of raiding per week."
Ah, but that is probably the full extent of your WoW playtime and even 4 out of 7 nights per week is still pretty frequent. Personally I definitely do not see anything wrong with dedicating that much time to a game or any other hobby and lots of people do it but it still is in the range that most people will not be able or willing to do and will therefore be left out.
Bellemi Jan 25th 2008 1:02PM
"Joining a guild that already beat BT would not in my opinion really constitute experiencing the content as intended. easy-mode content with people who are already farming it is terribly unexciting..."
I completely agree with you, however I also find doing daily quests and running five mans which yield new upgrades to be trribly unexciting. I was simply pointing out that anyone who says seeing Illidan is an impossible goal for them is whining for no good reason.
zenpunk Jan 25th 2008 2:56PM
I think they should scrap 25-man content altogether... spending that amount of resources for such a small percentage of players is just a waste, and unfair to the much much larger number of players who will never see any of that cus they can't raid 5 days a week for 6 hours each day.
I say scrap all 25-mans, and create more 5-man heroics. Keep 10 mans as the highest raid, but still put most effort into pumping out a ton more 5-mans.
Pythia Jan 25th 2008 8:18PM
As a 10 man raider, I'm not saying they should get rid of 25 man content. However, I would argue that the balance between content is messed up. With three times as many 25 man instances as 10 mans, they're obviously missing a good market here. The social aspects of Wow are not to be overlooked, and the idea of merging with another guild is, at best, intimidating. At least half of my guild wants to see new content beyond ZA and Kara, but are nervous about messing up the dynamic of our current guild. I think guild drama burns out players faster than any other element of the game.
It seems a sensible solution to WotLK would be to make more of the content 10 mans, then make the large raid content 20 or 30 man. Have more content sequence, starting with individual quests, progressing to 5 man dungeons, one or two 10 man dungeons, and then the big boss (and a few of his advisors) are for the 20 or 30 man raids. Drop some of the T7 gear in the 10 mans, and leave 2 or 3 gear slots only for the big raids. That way, guilds can still progress through most of the raid content, without ever having to touch the larger raid stuff. Make the content proportional to the player base.
Also, if the 10 man content gets progressively harder throughout WotLK, and there are more 10 man instances, high end raiders are less likely to get bored when they're "beaten" the game. Elements such as a speed run, rare special mounts or fun items, silly games like Chess, and other new mechanics help keep the game interesting and worth re-running old instances. Heroic instances and CoT remake of old instances keep the challenge in place and prolong the novelty of the dungeons.
A question for defenders of 25 man content: What is it that you like about 25 mans that you do not get in 10 mans? Me personally, the idea of working with 24 other people terrifies me, but I confess to never having run any large raid content.
Oilof Jan 26th 2008 11:39AM
As people have said, there's an endless amount to do when you have BT on farm. Those people really need to remember what they got into the game for, I doubt when they signed up they were thinking about spending so much time a week raiding. Most people probably wanted to get on from time to time and make a few friends, explore, kill some mobs, and have a great time overall. If raiding has become something that you feel empty without, perhaps it's time for a change.
Blacksabre Jan 28th 2008 8:40AM
Instead if being so eager to increase the 25 man, bg and arena content for the small fraction of players who really want to do it, and basically force the rest of us to participate so there's enough people to justify it at all, how about putting in a few things to force the PVP crowd to do some 5 man or PvE stuff??
I'm really tired of the shrill whining from the 25-man, arena and BG crowd about content. The only reason they want new content is to get even more uber gear, so they can constantly spam chat to show it off. These people are going to be the eventual downfall of Wow. Can you say short attention span customer base?