Patch 5.3 interview with Ghostcrawler
Mystery of the Unborn Val'kyr
The latest patch 5.3 news
All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: The Zul'Aman speed bump
by Heath Milo 
Feb 6th 2008 at 8:00AM
A number of guilds have graduated from Karazhan in the last month or so, but instead of moving into 25-man content, the majority are turning to our new favorite troll town. Of course some of them are dabbling in Gruul's Lair but I dare say Lady Vashj isn't getting as much company as she used to.
There is definitely something to be said about the fact that ZA is 10-man content. If you have a great Kara guild but not enough numbers to move up, ZA is a blessing to say the least. But is that a good thing? Ultimately, if you want to see Black Temple, you're running out of time, and postponing 25-man content is not helping your cause. The expansion will arrive sooner or later and when it does, people will not be interested in killing Illidan anymore. They'll want to see Northrend. If you've tried to put together a Naxx run lately, you know what I'm talking about.
So what do you think? Is ZA helping people get the gear they need to succeed? Or is it keeping them away from the prize?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Chris Laverdure Feb 6th 2008 11:58AM
That's not opinion, that's fact. Either she is getting downed more often, or she is not.
Argent Feb 6th 2008 9:09AM
ZA really isn't a bridge from kara to whatever next. a good kara-geared group should have no trouble with stuff like bear and eagle, but by the time you roll around to the dragonhawk, things get a bit more...iffy (just forget malacrass.)
in all reality, i consider ZA a drop-in replacement for the T5 instances so guilds that are already deeply ensconced in BT/hyjal can go back and gear up new recruits, re-rolls etc and bring them along more efficiently.
tchernobyl Feb 6th 2008 9:14AM
as said above by someone else... if you want to use it to gear it up for 25 mans, look elsewhere as its far too hard.
If you can do it easily including the timed loot, what the hell are you doing there in the first place :P
Cynra Feb 6th 2008 9:34AM
I currently raid Zul'Aman on my T5 priest, switching in my T4 hunter when the added DPS is needed (or when my raid leader accidently brings four healers to the raid and then realizes that we're lacking DPS, bleh). Zul'Aman has a lot of appeal for numerous reasons, beyond the inevitable drive towards raid progression. Personally, I go there because I enjoy learning the new fights, there is some decent gear in there that I wouldn't mind snagging (the prevalence of haste on some of the gear and the different itemizations had me quirk my eyebrow a bit in thought), and - to be honest - I'm a lore nut with a fascination with the trolls.
I wish that people would stop considering stepping into Black Temple and Hyjal the sole purpose of the game. While I fully intend to get into that content before the expansion comes around, the guild members under my command have absolutely no interest in becoming dedicated raiders. Most of them lack the time while others just don't have the desire or inclination to put in the amount of time needed to learn a 25-man boss fight. Furthermore, we just lack the warm bodies to do that sort of thing without an alliance of some sort and finding a time that twenty-five people can get together weekyl with their schedules sucks. However, they want to do new things while getting better loot. Zul'Aman is a perfect stepping stone for them.
Having done Karazhan for quite some time now, my guys are looking for some new content to sink their teeth into. We've run heroics to the ground. Most of us have everything we could possibly need from Karazhan. I try to get them as occassional subs into my 25-man raids when we have the slots open and they're availale, but these are few and far between. Zul'Aman gives my guildies the opportunity to get better loot that they probably won't get elsewhere due to their disinterest in being regular raiders, new fights to wrap their brains around, and another opportunity to have fun with one another when we're not hitting up the Battlegrounds. They're excited by the opportunity to enter Zul'Aman and smash some trolls while getting phat new lewt.
And, if that makes them happy, who the hell am I to say otherwise?
DrPleaser Feb 6th 2008 9:39AM
I think of ZA as my mini loot bank to help our guild's progress in the 25 mans. Sure the bosses are hard, but it's not impossible.
Nalorakk simply tests if your tanks can taunt at the right time, once you get that down, it's a simple tank and spank. Azilkon becomes less of a problem once you learn to collapse on the tank at the right time. Sure, Halazzi and Jan'Alai are more challenging to beat, but my guild was able to manage to take them down with generally a mix of kara and badge gear.
And the trash is minimal which is awesome. Last night, we ran in and picked off 3 bosses in less then 90 minutes giving us massive upgrades. Where else can we find that?
Xcelsior Feb 6th 2008 9:42AM
And let's not forget that Kara started out a lot harder than it currently is. As with most instances, Blizz seems to take the nerf bat to raid content after a period of time. It could very well be that ZA will get the same treatment to make everything after the dragonhawk a tad bit easier for Kara-geared groups.
PeeWee Feb 6th 2008 9:47AM
I have no intention of dabbling with the 25-man content anyway. ZA is a good way to pass time while we wait for WotLK.
fittiziofittizio Feb 6th 2008 9:48AM
Moving form 10 to 25 man its a huge step for many guilds.
Why dont implement some smooth transition?
5 mans
10 man
15 man
20 man
25 man
...
Alch Feb 6th 2008 12:41PM
Even going from 10 to 20 would be a lot easier. Right now my guild has two Kara groups and we are getting it cleared pretty fast but the idea of finding five more people that we get along with and that are geared seems like a long shot.
Mozz Feb 6th 2008 10:07AM
If you want to be serious about getting to Black Temple and your guild is still "farming" Karazhan, you need to find a new guild. There are dozens of guilds recruiting and they are not hard to find. I know many people are attached to their guilds and to the people in them. Trust me, you'll make new friends in your new guild. I myself was in the same position. One server transfer and a couple months later I'm killing Kael, then Archimonde then Illidan. I've met many cool people and I still chat with the peeps on my old server. Win win situation.
ZA has nothing to do with progression in this game. They put it out to keep people busy for a time. Blizzard actually did an amazing job with the instance in that it gave two different groups of raiders something to do at a time where no new raiding content had been released in a while. BT farming guilds can go in and roll the place for bear mounts. 10 man guilds have something new to pound their head against. They somehow managed to satisfy both groups. Brilliant!
Cynra Feb 6th 2008 10:45AM
I think that comment was directed towards me (and if not, feel free to disregard my reply!). My guild is full of casual players who are mostly real-life friends in a small community in the Midwest and we primarily do ten- and five-mans as a guild as well as hitting the Battlegrounds together. We lack the bodies, the availability, and the inclination to every progress as a guild into 25-man raids. That's fine; they're happy and I wouldn't willingly do anything to change that. This is why Zul'Aman appeals to the guild as a whole, since it's new content for them and a way to get some new epics without finding time in their busy schedules to do 25-man raids on a regular basis.
On the other hand, I am an experienced pre-TBC heavy raider who delights in raid progression. I raid with a group of other like-minded individuals, most of whom are in a large raiding guild on my server who have two core 25-man raids (one of which does T6 and the other is currently on T5). I am a valuable member of their raid, consistently peforming in either the top or second healing slot in every fight (our beloved Restoration druid is the one who beats me). We've done most of Tempest Keep and we're diligently working on Serpentshrine Cavern. I'm absolutely serious about getting to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple prior to the expansion's release and - as my guild's guild master - have absolutely no desire to leave in order to join a raiding guild.
What requirement is there to be a member of a guild in order to raid with them? I'm progressing just fine and don't intend to leave my guild just because my guys have a different playstyle than I do. Leaving a guild - much less a server where I have been an active contributing member to the community in the past (lawl, arpee!) - to find a raiding guild is unnecessary because this wonderful guild full of my friends were gracious enough to invite me to their raids some time ago and I am a long-standing, contributing, and damned-fine member of their raid. I know cool people, I've got my friends here, I'm getting loot, I'm progressing in content, and I don't need to leave my guild or join a different server to get it.
In this, I think it's better than just win-win: it's actually the optimal situation.
tiamazzo Feb 6th 2008 10:14AM
With the short reset timer, it's easy to fill in gaps in your gear on off raiding days, be it with another guild, or all in guild. You know that t5 shoulder token lootreaver just won't drop for you? Well, You get twice as many shots in ZA (Depending on your raiding schedule).
Mirina Feb 6th 2008 10:14AM
For us, Kara is sooo on farm that we don't run it unless we are all smashed, decide Kara sounds like fun, and then end up clearing Kara drunk, in about 3 hours. The clear is quick for us, since we're just doing it for badges, and voids for the guild bank. When you have people in T5, SSC/TK geared, so if you die, then you need more booze.
ZA is something that we have to be more careful on. While we've done 2 full clears, we've done it without the timer (Eagle boss bugged and didn't cast the lightning and we all died). To me, it's not worth it because you get 1 piece of loot per boss, unless you're able to do the timers. There's only 1 real piece of loot I need from ZA (maybe 2)--and it's Trollbane. I'm completely epic'd out on my Hunter...until you get to my blue weapon--I'm tired of running around with the Sonic Spear...it's time for an upgrade...I've been using it since before kara, and 5/6 SSC--WTB upgrade. If I could manage to get Legacy, I'd probably take that and give up on ZA altogether, but Legacy is my current bane. Sucks that there isn't a good hunter weapon in 25-mans until BT. So either I'll be clearing BT with the Sonic Spear, or *maybe* I'll get something from ZA.
Coming out of ZA with a 50G repair bill, a crappy offering of loot, and 6 tokens, after 5 hours in there, isn't worth it. I don't want them to nerf the encounter, but it's definitely lacking on the loot side of things (and I'd love to see some better badge rewards...as a hunter, there's only 1 thing I've gotten, and it's a REALLY old badge cloak to make up for one I haven't gotten in Kara--and I have like 160 badges rotting in the bank).
Razhlok Feb 6th 2008 10:44AM
Sonic Spear. I just vendored my Sonic Spear! Needed to make room in my bank for Legacy; which I replaced with Trollbane. ;)
Trollbane looks good with the hunter T5 (at least the shoulders). :)
/poke /poke
Razhlok Feb 6th 2008 10:41AM
ZA is a nice fall-back option, if we don't have enough for SSC/TK. We have also been known to tear through the first 3 bosses in an hour if we get out of the 25-man quick enough.
As for it being too hard: I disagree. We had Hex Lord to 10% on our first night of attempts on him... and that was before any of us had gotten a single piece of SSC/TK gear. I don't find the bosses more challenging than SSC, that's for sure.
Nice thing about ZA is that its short and can be done quickly and its on a 3-day timer. But, I wish we had an extra raid night to dedicate to getting the place on farm status.
Hokuto Feb 6th 2008 10:44AM
My guild's 4/6 SSC and I find myself doing it for tier alone, there's nothing else for me there. ZA, on the other hand, has the best resto druid belt and (cloth) boots in the game, an exceptional chest piece at the first boss, exceptional - and very imba, imo - healer staff at the second chest, etc.
But no guild with a solid 25-man group would start doing it seriously. ZA, quite frankly, is harder than good part of SSC/TK; mastering it requires a good chunk of time, dedication and exceptionally good gear (if you can't clear Kara in a night/4h, you can't finish ZA at all). And by the time ZA is on farm, your 25-man group would be broken. There's no way to keep doing both seriously.
And that's why I hate ZA: it's out of place on both progression and gear level. Love the gear, obviously, and hate everything else about it.
Can't wait for SP-5 to kick Kara in the chin and mess the progression even more.
Neil T. Feb 6th 2008 10:53AM
Personally I see it as a good raid for the smaller guilds who have essentially finished with Karazhan but don't have enough members to do the 25 man raids. It's useful for the guilds doing 25-mans but not in terms of progression; instead it's a source of badges, void crystals and loot for those who are maybe behind other players with gear, and can be done when there's no 25-man raid scheduled.
It has its place and I'm glad Blizzard put it there, but if you're aiming to kill Illidan then it shouldn't be a priority to clear. If not, then it's a fun and different dungeon to explore.
anonymoose Feb 6th 2008 10:58AM
I just quit a BT/MH guild in order to focus more well rested energy on my other irl obligations--one of the things I'm very pleased about is that making this decision doesn't have to be a death knell for my raiding activities since there are new heroic rewards (as well as more to come I'm sure), ZA, and plenty of pvp.
As someone who loves progression oriented 25 mans, and hopes to return to it someday in a way that better fits my schedule, I don't begrudge the fact that all these other opportunities exist in the game. What I don't understand is why folks have complained so bitterly about 25 mans or any additional 25 man content being added to the game. This does not threaten you any more than a new 10 man threatens raiders.
ZA was an odd thing in that it really wasn't so much a progression from Kara as it is a place where people from all levels might want to find gear and interesting items such as the bear mount and enchants. There are some items that are on par with T5, and other items that might be superior to those found in T6 content. Since it is in that weird zone where there might be a handful or truckload full of items groups could want from ZA, I almost wish you could tool the difficulty level (and loot drops) to match a level of difficulty.
Folks who are not raiding 25 mans might not realize there are specific drops that are more desirable than drops in BT/MH and for some classes the haste gear is invaluable for use in BT/MH. I do recognize however that for my T4 geared groups it has been very difficult.
That said, there are T4 geared groups beating ZA--while gear can make some things easier, as always careful execution of strat, the best gearing you can achieve and use of consumables might be more important in deciding who clears ZA and who doesn't.
bloodlight Feb 6th 2008 12:22PM
Za could be a very good, fun and interesting part of the game if the loot received = the level of e the encounters in the Instance. However, the loot is just above t4, in some cases almost = to t5 style loot. Yet you have to be already fully t5, and partially t6 at a minimum to get a decent amount of loot to drop. Thus making the loot that is dropping basically useless.
The loot either need to be upgraded to make it woththe running by the higher geared, The mobs nerfed to make it possible to run with lower level gear, or the timers extended so that those with proper gear level can actaully make the time limits.
Asswipe Johnson Feb 6th 2008 11:42AM
It's a reasonable point that ZA isn't exactly "progression," but your post also mentions exactly why it exists, which is to give tiny guilds something to move on to if they don't have the numbers for 25-man content. My own guild consists of a small group of IRL friends who almost all have 70 characters currently attuning to Karazhan. Unfortunately, there are barely enough of us to get a full group together to raid Kara on a regular basis. We'll be able to do it, but it doesn't look like we'll ever have the numbers for Black Temple. However, once we have Kara on farm, we'll have Zul'Aman to take on next. Thank you, Blizzard, for having the foresight to create another 10-man raid instance so guilds like ours will have something else to do post-Kara.