The AV map imbalance in patch 2.3: a different perspective

In fact, if we go over to Warcraft Realms, we'll see that the Alliance win quite a good number of AV games, too. Furthermore, in some Battlegroups, they completely dominate Alterac Valley. Maybe the Horde of those Battlegroups should read David's article. In it, David outlines how the new Reinforcement mechanic favors the Horde because the map design allows Horde players to reach Stonehearth Bunker, a key objective that awards +63 Honor when burned and eliminates 75 Reinforcements, before the Alliance can reach Iceblood Tower. The new Reinforcement mechanic also makes Iceblood Graveyard a critical defensive bastion that, if defended fully, supposedly prevents the Alliance from getting any Honor from Alterac Valley.
What QQ Can Get YouThe situation became so bad for some Battlegroups such as Stormstrike and Bloodlust (the vaunted BG9) that Alliance stopped queuing for Alterac Valley altogether. With so much Alliance QQ, Blizzard quickly hotfixed Balinda and Vanndar and went to work on more fixes for Alterac Valley. It's a considerably rapid response by Blizzard's standards. This bothers me on several levels. First of all, Alterac Valley has geographically favored the Alliance ever since its inception. This is just a fact. Stormpike Graveyard is the most fortified objective in the game as it is uphill and flanked by ridges from which Alliance can situate themselves to snipe assaulting Horde. It is followed by the Dun Baldar bridge, which is a true bottleneck as opposed to the Iceblood pass because it's a bridge. You can't go around it. You will fall. In fact, it's such a notorious imbalance that Wing Commander Ichman references it in the quest he gives out in Shadowmoon Valley. He states, "War isn't fair! To hell with 'em all!"
That pretty much summed up how Blizzard treated the AV map imbalance for quite some time. It was only in Patch 2.3, over two years after Alterac Valley was released, that drastic balance changes were made. Before the changes, Kalgan went on the record to state that Alliance won as much as 75% to 80% of AV games while win-loss ratios in other BGs were just about even, indicating that the problem was with the map. A few changes were made in Patch 2.2, which Kalgan reported drew the gap closer to Alliance winning about 60% of AV matches. On the horizon, however, looms more changes to Alterac Valley, mere months after Patch 2.3 and the Alliance boycotts. Blizzard moving at blazing speed? Uncanny!
Without Even Trying
The good news is, Blizzard seems to be quick about addressing the issue. The bad news is, it seems like the only way to get Blizzard's attention is to QQ. Loudly. Or more succinctly, to not play at all and make a huge stink about it. As statistics indicate, the Alliance can and do still win AV under the new mechanics. In fact, in many Battlegroups, the Alliance dominate. One argument that the boycotting Alliance point out is that under the new mechanics, losing nets them 0 Honor. This prompted one blogger to post his thoughts on the matter, calling out what he calls the "Zero Honor Fallacy".
In his post, he outlines what he thinks is the best way the Alliance can eke out Honor from the new mechanics... even if it turns out to be a loss. It's a bit superfluous if you consider that according to statistics, the Alliance continue to dominate AV in some Battlegroups, and the vaunted boycott was more the exception than the rule. What he says, essentially, is that the Alliance should "play the new AV instead of the old one", and he's absolutely right. He echoes a sentiment that ran through my head when I first read about the supposed widespread boycotts -- people aren't even trying. He writes, "the current belief (that AV is broken) prevails so much people don't even put a honest effort into the game anymore."
If it ain't broke... don't break itThat's what's most irksome about the boycotts. People aren't even trying. The fact is, an Iceblood chokepoint defense is not insurmountable. Because it is highly defensible if the Horde put an effort into it, don't attempt to take Iceblood! Use it as a feint, a distraction, and instead go after Frostwolf Graveyard, the most open objective in the game. In the Battlegroups where Alliance win their fair share and even dominate, the Alliance have learned to adapt to the new game and go past the Iceblood barrier and head straight South to FWGY and the easy-to-ninja Relief Hut. The Iceblood pass, unlike the bridge at Dun Baldar, is not a true chokepoint. It can be skipped with a bit of focus. Sticking to the west, offense that remain mounted can bypass most defenses because the chokepoint is a fair distance from the Iceblood Graveyard flag, which the Horde should theoretically defend.
What this does is force the defenders of Iceblood to fall back or face the consequences. Alliance should capitalize on the weaknesses of the Horde and actually play the game. It's counter-intuitive, but it works. Tagging the Southern Graveyards will do one of two things: 1) lessen the defense at Iceblood, or 2) allow the Alliance to capture them and consequently toss rezzers to the North. It becomes a relatively easy matter to capture any untagged Northern towers after that. Again, this strategy is counter-intuitive, but it's adaptive to an Iceblood chokepoint defense.
One thing that most people don't take into account is that game outcomes are never set. But it seems that some people simply don't bother to make the effort to actually fight in the Battleground. You're never assured that you opponents will do exactly the same thing battle after battle. War is fluid, and players should learn to adapt. What the boycotts demonstrate is a refusal to adapt to the situation and simply cry foul. They look at the imbalance and accept defeat as a foregone conclusion.
Is the map imbalanced under the new mechanics? Yes, definitely. There's a clear advantage that the Horde enjoys because they reach a critical objective ahead of the Alliance. With the Reinforcement and Honor implications that come with a Captain, the weakness of Balinda Stonehearth was a disadvantage, as well. But the map was not unwinnable. Neither was the Honor gain insignificant. Surely, it could happen that the Horde play the game well enough to prevent the Alliance from capturing any objectives, but played right, the Alliance could throw counters as long as they played adaptively.But playing adaptively takes effort, and it appears that some people won't make that effort. If the Horde defense is focused on Galvangar, skip him. If they're heavy at Iceblood Graveyard, focus on heading straight for the Southern targets. If they don't defend at all -- which happens on more than a few Battlegroups -- then it's all fair game. Focus defense on Stonehearth Bunker -- a defensive-minded Horde crew won't be sending more than a handful of people to cap it, if even that. Sadly, as blogger Altitis mentions, the Alliance should write Balinda off. Interestingly enough, in the games that the Alliance do win, Galvangar is dead long before the Horde are able to take down Balinda, possibly as a result of the hotfix that Blizzard did.
Getting your fix
Let's make one thing clear: fixing Alterac Valley is a good thing. What isn't so cool is how the World of Warcraft community seems to have gotten Blizzard's attention. David Bowers said, "Assuming a relative equality of gear, player skill and morale (and of course AFKers), the Horde can decide to make AV a slow but certain victory," under the new mechanics. But given how Stormpike Graveyard and the bridge at Dun Baldar are far easier to defend than their Horde counterparts -- Frostwolf Graveyard is on an open plain, for example, as opposed to SPGY which is ensconced within ridges on an uphill path -- the same exact statement was true for the old Alterac Valley where the goal was to reach the General at the end. So true, in fact, that the Alliance won a up to a whopping 80% of the games.
Despite the statistics showing how imbalanced the map was, despite the number of posts asking for fixes, and despite Blizzard making jokes about it on their quest texts, the map imbalance stayed that way for over two years. On the other hand, the changes announced for 2.4 come very swiftly. Was it a response to the boycotts? Because it certainly seems that way. If this is what it takes for Blizzard to listen to its customers, then it sets a bad precedent for the game and the community at large.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 7)
Felstorm Feb 8th 2008 11:25AM
You compare the bridge into the Alliance base to the IB choke point. That's incorrect. Compare the bridge choke point to the gate area of the horde base. The horde use that a defensive choke point. Plus while the alliance tries to get by it they are pummels by arrows from 2 towers.
Compare IB to Stonehearth. The Alliance has one area it can ride through to get past IB. The horde have 2 routes to get by Stonehearth.
Leshrac Feb 8th 2008 11:28AM
Oh STFU, you won't be happy till Horde is neutered is every god damn way, you fukking whiner.
Verit Feb 8th 2008 11:51AM
@Leshrac
Fact is - if the alliance strategy is to turtle at the bridge - we've totally lost already. By that point we'd be lucky to have 150 reinforcements left.
rrrrarr Feb 8th 2008 12:18PM
Here's the thing, the Horde has a strong defense at the first two towers, but extremely weak defense inside their base. It's the other way around for the alliance. If you're complaining about how hard it is to take either FW tower, or the RH, get over it. They are infinitely easier to take than either of the DB bunkers or the aid station.
In addition, frost wolf has a back door. You can force them to fall back to defend the towers and RH from FWGY easily.
Nevermind that Drek has half the health of Vann. Or that Bal is now a time sink with way too much health for a damn mage.
It's not that tough. Yes, horde will win every time if alliance act like a bunch of monkeys and do exactly what we expect them to do. However, even with a good defense at IB, it's not hard to force us to fall back to FW from IB. Just a little coordination and better play.
Alliance just want a PVE race back... it's apparently upsetting to them when there's some strategy and adapting that needs to be done.
Wulfen Feb 8th 2008 1:22PM
I'm part of a battlegroup that rarely wins AV, and I can count on one finger how many times I've won the new AV. I can also attest to the fact that I've had several of those losses result in absolutely no honor, so I don't even bother with it now, even on its weekend.
The bad thing about this is I think the Alliance can be competitive, but it seems that every group I've been with still plays this as if it's old AV - a mad rush to the last boss.
So I do agree that there is a natural advantage for Horde, but also, my group just doesn't seem to get how to play the new mapstyle.
infection Feb 8th 2008 11:29AM
I still trying to figure out how the "map" changed to favor the horde.
Can someone show me?
That same damn gap that alliance are qq'ing about has always been there. Just like the same gap to get to sp has always been there.
The took out the Lt's. Big freakin deal. The gap is still there.
Horde just changed strategies now and actually stop and play defense, and alliance can't handle that.
Solution? Quit playing.
Did horde quit playing for the 2 years alliance camped sp?
No
Like I said, I obviously don't remember the actual land terrain being altered.
Green Armadillo Feb 8th 2008 12:08PM
The terrain didn't change, the victory conditions did.
The map favors the Alliance in a race due to the poor defensive positions at the Horde base, and favors the Horde in a war of attrition due to the superior choke points at IBGY and IW Bunker (in the hands of the Horde). The Horde's weakness before 2.3 was that their optimal tactic - forcing an Alliance turtle - was actually counterproductive to the map's sole win condition (kill the general), as the entire Alliance team would be stuck at the bridge. So, the Horde was forced to abandon their defensive positions and engage in a race that did not favor them (though losing still offered a fair amount of bonus honor from killing NPC's and burning towers, especially in the context of 10-15 minute matches).
So why does the Alliance still win in some battlegroups? Because the local Horde prefers quick matches with moderate amounts of bonus honor to long matches with lots of bonus honor (and longer queues, when the Alliance honor/time ratio goes to crap and they go elsewhere). Make no mistake, it's the Horde's choice, because they start closer to contested territory, which is why they're moving the tunnel. Even so, the equilibrium point of the map is still going to be a stalemate between IW Bunker and SPGY, so it'll be interesting to see whether moving the tunnel changes anything.
Verit Feb 8th 2008 12:15PM
Did the horde get zero bonus honor back then? No.
Fraufrau Feb 8th 2008 11:31AM
I agree with everything written in this article except one thing:
The BG9 (Bloodlust) 'Boycott'. I am from this Battlegroup (Frostmourne) and I can say that the first time I ever heard of the boycott was when some horde posted on the forums complaining about it. There was never any organized or planned boycott of AV in the Battlegroup. Many players simply realized that with the current Alliance form in AV that it was a waste of time from a purely Honor grinding perspective. Yes, a loss is 0 honor (if nothing is capped) and that is actually a very common outcome.
Many of us are blue in the face trying to get the AV players to bypass IBGY if the horde are defending it (it actually took us a couple of weeks to get them to stop rushing Galv first and go for IBGY... months on and we cant get them to skip IBGY now), or if there is only a couple of horde there dismount at the flag instead of 30 yards from it.
I think the movement of the horde cave is really all that needs to be done from here. The Alliance in my battlegroup need to stop riding aimlessly around the map and actually attack targets, guard them until they cap and reclaim our own towers the horde have capped. If they did that, even a loss would yield a few hundred honor.
Korek Feb 8th 2008 11:31AM
There's a few things this blog is overlooking. I played Horde pre-2.2 (AFK patch) and hit exalted with Frostwolf in that time in the Stormstrike battlegroup. We a dedicated group of 5-10 defenders (and half our force AFKaving) we could stymie an entire Alliance zerg at IBGY/Galv, and combined with capping SHGY (they let us) and stealing SFGY (which got us yelled at for 'forcing an Alliance turtle') we could turn a game into a 4-hour turtle-fest that we would eventually win. But of course in those days that was massively frowned on by both sides for being terrible honor/hour so it was rare.
The Horde advantages in 2.3 are very easy for a PUG to leverage into victory and require premade-level coordination from the Alliance to counter. In battlegroups where the Alliance isn't being shut out, you find the Horde are not leveraging IBGY and aren't first focusing on pushing the Allies back into a DB turtle. Why they aren't is anyone's guess: maybe they fear our long queue times, maybe they're just too ingrained in the idea of an Alliance turtle being bad.
Sure the FWRH is easy to ninja, but it still takes 4 minutes and if they have no forward GYs then every death permanently removes that person from offense as they get caught behind our offensive line and have to fight past IWB which is a chokepoint for blocking north-to-south movement, but not south-to-north. Our defense is spawning either in one of our default GYs or in our cave and can whittle down the Alliance forces.
The changes discussed in 2.4 are needed: Balinda needs to not be a joke and only takes forever to kill now because of her insane health totals (also being reversed). We shouldn't be hitting the Alliance bunkers before they can even get there. They also address the RH-zerg strategy because warmasters are now going to buff each other and the general. All told? Very mild "nerfs" to us, and a solid nerf to the one race strat that is netting the Alliance any wins at all where the Horde hasn't mastered the IBGY strat.
Vort Feb 8th 2008 11:33AM
The Alliance choke point is behind 2 Alliance towers and infront of 2.
The Horde choke point is infront of 4 Horde towers and behind zero.
The difference Horde can cap 2 towers before the choke point and Alliance can cap zero towers before the choke point.
There are ways to handle this on both sides, but in a heavy defence game thats the way things pan out.
Kovacs Feb 8th 2008 11:35AM
BOYCOTT? Yes there is a BOYCOTT - I roll Horde for my main and Ally as an Alt so don't tell me there isn't a BOYCOTT.
The Ally's are being childish - for the longest time they won AV and the horde still played but now they lose and QQ in turn they stop playing - It proves that these are children who's parents cannot fix the issue nor can they buy a win. It's sad because AV is a great BG and shouldn't be about honor but BATTLE! like all the other BG's are.
Fraufrau Feb 8th 2008 11:53AM
It isn't a boycott when you consider that you have a limited amount of time and want as much honor towards that pvp piece as possible and want to run BGs that are going to do that.
AV for Alliance on BG9 is by far THE WORST honour/hour BG we have now. My druid alt has max badges on WG, AB and EotS but very few in AV and I only enter it for the badges now.
To cry that Horde still ran AV when they lost time and time again and had 50% or more AFK in the cave is ignoring the fact that you gained honor - even if horde didn't cap a thing (which was still rare, they usually got at least 1-2 bunkers and Balinda).
Arabelli Feb 8th 2008 1:41PM
Yes, I agree, deciding to not queue for a frustrating battleground is far less honorable than sitting afk in the cave for two years.
It's not a boycott. It's just not running something that isn't worth the time. That's like saying there's an AQ40 boycott or something. Most the time it's pulling teeth, and so people don't sign up for it. It's not like some organized protest of Alliance whining, it's just doing the logical and less painful thing.
Tech Feb 8th 2008 11:36AM
First of all your bias towards the Horde is far too obvious! Try taking a more neutral approach (like any journalist should) to discussing this topic or many people like myself will just write you off as a Horde QQ'er.
The IB GY choke is the most important on the map because if held properly they can defend IB tower and Galv from it, thus giving Alliance no chance of capping any objectives. And thus turning the game into a turtle which the Horde almost always win if they are heavily defending IB GY.
Yes, I agree that the bridge at DB is also a tight choke point, but by the time the Horde get there they have already gotten Balinda and both of our towers. Giving the Horde a huge reinforcement advantage to the point where they can basically turtle defense for the rest of the game and pull out a win.
If enough Horde are turtling at IB it is not as simple as you would like to claim by just running past them. I have tried this on many occasions to try and split there defenses just to be killed time after time. It then turns into HK farming for the Horde when everyone starts doing suicide runs, and just hurts the Alliances reinforcements that much more from all of the deaths of people trying to run through.
Though stealthers are great for sneaking past the front lines to try and take objectives and split up there defenses, they most likely get killed quickly afterwards because no one is there to support them. And this applies for both Horde and Alliance.
I agree that a change needs to be made to stop the IB GY turtling, more importantly the games in which Alliance receives 0 honor for 25-30min, and I am glad Blizzard has recognized the problem and is addressing it quickly!
Alchemistmerlin Feb 8th 2008 12:21PM
From Tech: "First of all your bias towards the Horde is far too obvious! Try taking a more neutral approach (like any journalist should)"
From the Article: "Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Battlegrounds"
Key words: "Journalist" and "Opinion"
It says, right under the title, that this is an opinion piece, therefore it is not intended to be neutral. This is not a news site, this is a blog site. This is not a news article, this is an Opinion column. People need to understand that and stop complaining about the site's "bias".
Tech Feb 8th 2008 12:43PM
It also says "Analysis" and his analysis was from an obviously biased stand point in my opinion which as I stated I believe took away from the validity of his article.
I was simply trying to point out that I believe if he would have taken a more neutral approach to his "Analysis / Opinion" piece that more people might have seriously contemplated the points he was trying to make rather than just writing it off as Horde QQ as I did.
This is also just my opinion which is what these comments are for so if you do not agree with me simply move on.
Matt Feb 8th 2008 11:39AM
Dont know why everything, where PvP is concerned, has to be balanced. Horde can easily win this BG if they work together, depends hugely on tactics and you will be up against players from level 61-70. So it could be the case that sometimes the horde will have a load of low levels and then wonder why they loose?
Maybe AV should be made level 70 only. Alliance on my battlegroup seems to loose other battlegrounds quite badly but then other times we win by a long shot, so the outcome of BG's is based on so many variables which is part of its lure for me.
Yossarian Feb 8th 2008 11:39AM
The fact that they're adding something in the next patch to help the Alliance is INSANE to me. In my battlegroup, the alliance seem to be dominating AV. They simply ride 30(ish) strong past every bunker/tower/etc all the way to the horde aid station and zerg it as quickly as possible. The 2 frostwolf towers do nothing to stop them as they can ride right past those as well. They're inevitably on our boss while we're still trying to get across that damn drawbridge and fighting off one of the 65 alliance NPCs that never drops aggro. If anybody can think of any way to stop that, let me know. Ultimately, the horde have no real choke points till our aid station, and once that's lost, game over.
Matt Feb 8th 2008 11:43AM
A few rogues stealthing past the bridge can easily get the two towers and graveyard. From experience around 3-4 allies guard this area and you can easily take them out with rogue + druid combos stealthing through.