The AV map imbalance in patch 2.3: a different perspective

In fact, if we go over to Warcraft Realms, we'll see that the Alliance win quite a good number of AV games, too. Furthermore, in some Battlegroups, they completely dominate Alterac Valley. Maybe the Horde of those Battlegroups should read David's article. In it, David outlines how the new Reinforcement mechanic favors the Horde because the map design allows Horde players to reach Stonehearth Bunker, a key objective that awards +63 Honor when burned and eliminates 75 Reinforcements, before the Alliance can reach Iceblood Tower. The new Reinforcement mechanic also makes Iceblood Graveyard a critical defensive bastion that, if defended fully, supposedly prevents the Alliance from getting any Honor from Alterac Valley.
What QQ Can Get YouThe situation became so bad for some Battlegroups such as Stormstrike and Bloodlust (the vaunted BG9) that Alliance stopped queuing for Alterac Valley altogether. With so much Alliance QQ, Blizzard quickly hotfixed Balinda and Vanndar and went to work on more fixes for Alterac Valley. It's a considerably rapid response by Blizzard's standards. This bothers me on several levels. First of all, Alterac Valley has geographically favored the Alliance ever since its inception. This is just a fact. Stormpike Graveyard is the most fortified objective in the game as it is uphill and flanked by ridges from which Alliance can situate themselves to snipe assaulting Horde. It is followed by the Dun Baldar bridge, which is a true bottleneck as opposed to the Iceblood pass because it's a bridge. You can't go around it. You will fall. In fact, it's such a notorious imbalance that Wing Commander Ichman references it in the quest he gives out in Shadowmoon Valley. He states, "War isn't fair! To hell with 'em all!"
That pretty much summed up how Blizzard treated the AV map imbalance for quite some time. It was only in Patch 2.3, over two years after Alterac Valley was released, that drastic balance changes were made. Before the changes, Kalgan went on the record to state that Alliance won as much as 75% to 80% of AV games while win-loss ratios in other BGs were just about even, indicating that the problem was with the map. A few changes were made in Patch 2.2, which Kalgan reported drew the gap closer to Alliance winning about 60% of AV matches. On the horizon, however, looms more changes to Alterac Valley, mere months after Patch 2.3 and the Alliance boycotts. Blizzard moving at blazing speed? Uncanny!
Without Even Trying
The good news is, Blizzard seems to be quick about addressing the issue. The bad news is, it seems like the only way to get Blizzard's attention is to QQ. Loudly. Or more succinctly, to not play at all and make a huge stink about it. As statistics indicate, the Alliance can and do still win AV under the new mechanics. In fact, in many Battlegroups, the Alliance dominate. One argument that the boycotting Alliance point out is that under the new mechanics, losing nets them 0 Honor. This prompted one blogger to post his thoughts on the matter, calling out what he calls the "Zero Honor Fallacy".
In his post, he outlines what he thinks is the best way the Alliance can eke out Honor from the new mechanics... even if it turns out to be a loss. It's a bit superfluous if you consider that according to statistics, the Alliance continue to dominate AV in some Battlegroups, and the vaunted boycott was more the exception than the rule. What he says, essentially, is that the Alliance should "play the new AV instead of the old one", and he's absolutely right. He echoes a sentiment that ran through my head when I first read about the supposed widespread boycotts -- people aren't even trying. He writes, "the current belief (that AV is broken) prevails so much people don't even put a honest effort into the game anymore."
If it ain't broke... don't break itThat's what's most irksome about the boycotts. People aren't even trying. The fact is, an Iceblood chokepoint defense is not insurmountable. Because it is highly defensible if the Horde put an effort into it, don't attempt to take Iceblood! Use it as a feint, a distraction, and instead go after Frostwolf Graveyard, the most open objective in the game. In the Battlegroups where Alliance win their fair share and even dominate, the Alliance have learned to adapt to the new game and go past the Iceblood barrier and head straight South to FWGY and the easy-to-ninja Relief Hut. The Iceblood pass, unlike the bridge at Dun Baldar, is not a true chokepoint. It can be skipped with a bit of focus. Sticking to the west, offense that remain mounted can bypass most defenses because the chokepoint is a fair distance from the Iceblood Graveyard flag, which the Horde should theoretically defend.
What this does is force the defenders of Iceblood to fall back or face the consequences. Alliance should capitalize on the weaknesses of the Horde and actually play the game. It's counter-intuitive, but it works. Tagging the Southern Graveyards will do one of two things: 1) lessen the defense at Iceblood, or 2) allow the Alliance to capture them and consequently toss rezzers to the North. It becomes a relatively easy matter to capture any untagged Northern towers after that. Again, this strategy is counter-intuitive, but it's adaptive to an Iceblood chokepoint defense.
One thing that most people don't take into account is that game outcomes are never set. But it seems that some people simply don't bother to make the effort to actually fight in the Battleground. You're never assured that you opponents will do exactly the same thing battle after battle. War is fluid, and players should learn to adapt. What the boycotts demonstrate is a refusal to adapt to the situation and simply cry foul. They look at the imbalance and accept defeat as a foregone conclusion.
Is the map imbalanced under the new mechanics? Yes, definitely. There's a clear advantage that the Horde enjoys because they reach a critical objective ahead of the Alliance. With the Reinforcement and Honor implications that come with a Captain, the weakness of Balinda Stonehearth was a disadvantage, as well. But the map was not unwinnable. Neither was the Honor gain insignificant. Surely, it could happen that the Horde play the game well enough to prevent the Alliance from capturing any objectives, but played right, the Alliance could throw counters as long as they played adaptively.But playing adaptively takes effort, and it appears that some people won't make that effort. If the Horde defense is focused on Galvangar, skip him. If they're heavy at Iceblood Graveyard, focus on heading straight for the Southern targets. If they don't defend at all -- which happens on more than a few Battlegroups -- then it's all fair game. Focus defense on Stonehearth Bunker -- a defensive-minded Horde crew won't be sending more than a handful of people to cap it, if even that. Sadly, as blogger Altitis mentions, the Alliance should write Balinda off. Interestingly enough, in the games that the Alliance do win, Galvangar is dead long before the Horde are able to take down Balinda, possibly as a result of the hotfix that Blizzard did.
Getting your fix
Let's make one thing clear: fixing Alterac Valley is a good thing. What isn't so cool is how the World of Warcraft community seems to have gotten Blizzard's attention. David Bowers said, "Assuming a relative equality of gear, player skill and morale (and of course AFKers), the Horde can decide to make AV a slow but certain victory," under the new mechanics. But given how Stormpike Graveyard and the bridge at Dun Baldar are far easier to defend than their Horde counterparts -- Frostwolf Graveyard is on an open plain, for example, as opposed to SPGY which is ensconced within ridges on an uphill path -- the same exact statement was true for the old Alterac Valley where the goal was to reach the General at the end. So true, in fact, that the Alliance won a up to a whopping 80% of the games.
Despite the statistics showing how imbalanced the map was, despite the number of posts asking for fixes, and despite Blizzard making jokes about it on their quest texts, the map imbalance stayed that way for over two years. On the other hand, the changes announced for 2.4 come very swiftly. Was it a response to the boycotts? Because it certainly seems that way. If this is what it takes for Blizzard to listen to its customers, then it sets a bad precedent for the game and the community at large.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Fraufrau Feb 8th 2008 11:58AM
You CC then at the opening between hills/ridges at IBGY, you guys can get there in plenty of time, lay traps, mages frost nova, locks fear, druid root/cyclone, etc, etc.
That is what the horde do on BG9 and it is very effective (although it helps when the fools 'riding past' dismount and try to fight through)
Rambull Feb 8th 2008 11:42AM
I remember plenty of times when I would rez at the cave (horde side) and try to ride north to the war effort. Only to find that allies had taken IBGY and were locking it down. Getting past there is a real problem, and I don't imagine it is much easier from the other side. I wish they would just leave AV alone and forget the whole mess. The rest of WoW has moved on from the whole 40 player mechanic. Why can't AV?
Patmos Feb 8th 2008 1:15PM
dude i am 5-20 in the new Alterac as Horde you can just run in and ninja the relief hut, 30 Allies crush frost wolf and take the RH if any less then 20 horde are there and its game over. plus in the ones i am winning Alliance is walking away with 300+ honor. I'm not QQing, but it certainly seems like the strategy in AV is gone Horde need to destroy the reinformcements before they ninja the RF and kill drek alternate win conditions. Maybe they should make some PvP rewards to Prot warriors so i could get welfare epics too!
zenpunk Feb 8th 2008 11:52AM
Summation of this blog:
Alliance had an advantage in AV for 2 years.
Blizz FINALLY tried to fix it, but in doing so unwittingly gave Horde an unfair advantage.
Now Blizz is trying to fix it again, but I'm upset cus it hasn't been unbalanced for the Horde as long as it's been for Allie.
Shadowfury Feb 8th 2008 11:48AM
The chokepoint is not on IBGY. It's on IBT. That's the main problem
Even on ruin, where alliance dominates 90% of the AV games (at least until 2 weeks ago), if the horde decides to break the allies offense on galv AND IBT, it's not possible for a good cap on TP and below. Sure we can ninja, but the offense on a pug does not regroup for a ninja squad to be effective. It's impossible to run over 20 horde with 25 allies when the allies come 3 at a time.
You have to to remember that horde uses Earthbinds, frost traps, dazes, frost novas, etc that blocks our advance. After 2 minutes of this the allies just can't do a good offensive. The Allies GYs (SH and SF) are too far from the choke point.
The changes sugested by blizzard will sure nerf the turtle. By turtling, the horde assures they will get at least ballinda and SHBk, giving 175 reinforcements of advantage. While IBT is easy to take down even with a turtle, Galv provides a challenge when there are 5 horde hitting the few tanks and healers. Even when alliance manages to take both down, the defense advantage gives the horde a few more reinforcements.
The map is imbalanced for the horde. When they do realize the imbalances, the loose is inevitable without a good premade
specs1832 Feb 8th 2008 11:49AM
I've been one of the first ones out of the Horde cave and gotten to SHGY only to find it fully defended already. Get a group with a pally and crusader aura to get the butts up there as soon as the gate drops. As far as SH Bunker goes, I'm sure if you let us take it, we'll be dumb enough to leave it unguarded for an easy recap. Play a little smarter, the SP area is far superior to IB area in terms of defending. The real question is going to be what are you going to do when these changes happen and you still lose. What will you blame next?
Rudi Feb 8th 2008 11:49AM
Seriously, why this article, wowinsider? It's just going to turn into another AV bitchfest.
(Here's my bitching tho... ;) )
Zach Yonzen! When Alli dominated AV Horde still got honor when they lost. Now Horde can dominate AV in such a way that Alli get zero honor when they lose (that is the situation in my battlegroup and many others). Blizz is trying to make losing acceptable (honor-wise) for Alli the way that it used to be for Horde. Hence the changes.
Diaz Feb 8th 2008 11:53AM
I support this article for what it is: a counterpoint to the heavily biased article previously shown on wowinsider supporting the alliance.
Now you can see the other side of the coin.
Good job sir.
Roboticus Feb 8th 2008 3:26PM
Good job sir indeed. Whenever there are competing views on a situation, the best route forward is to have each side put forth its best argument, juxtapose the two views, and see which one appears stronger. Here we have two great writers and two articles. For me, the first article was more persuasive, and the average point of view in each article's comments seems to suggest many people see it this way.
What's interesting to me is how each "party's" arguments tend to proceed. Those who suggest horde has an advantage usually put forth a complex argument regarding reinforcements, choke points, and tactics. Those who are on the other side of the debate tend to use the word "QQ" in every sentence and stick to pejoratives such as whiners, babies, and such, rather than discussing specifics.
I suppose each argumentation tactic might be persuasive to some, but it's clear to me which side is better supported.
David(Postal) Feb 8th 2008 11:57AM
I think AV is more balanced now then it used to be. I am alliance, and man... when I would play a long time ago, I would hardly ever lose AV it was sick! I would actually feel pretty bad for the horde. hopefully with the new patch it will balance better
Quark1020 Feb 8th 2008 12:22PM
Seem there is something people are forgeting: For every alliance player that doesn't queu up for AV there is another 2 ready to take their place. I remember a time when the alliance couldn't get into AV at certain hours of the day because there wasn't enough horde to play with. Its no mystery that the horde is outnumbered in most servers, so any number of alliance boycotting any bg would actualy be benefitial to the alliance. Think about it: the horde doesn't "allways" win because blizzard hates alliance, they win because the same players make it into the same battlegrounds over and over. Practice makes perfect.
Whenever I get into a BG and we are loosing, there is always the one person yelling the usual "God dammit, the [insert oposite side] always win!" I usualy reply, "Well I win most of the bg's i get in....maybe its you"
bonch Feb 8th 2008 11:59AM
@5:
"Oh jeez not wowinsider too....
I don't know how to make it any clearer. THERE IS NO BOYCOTT.
THERE IS NO BOYCOTT.
THERE.
IS.
NO.
BOYCOTT.
People are simply queuing for BGs that net them the best honor for their time. If the horde play with a certain strategy then the chances of an Alliance win go down dramatically. It isn't impossible, but it isn't as easy as L2P either.
There is no boycott. Don't be an idiot."
That's a boycott, moron. Boycott is when you refuse participation in something.
Alliance are just too big of babies to actually stop and defend SHGY. When they do that, they win. The times they've done it in Stormstrike, they win. However, most of the time, they quietly ride past as if the Horde isn't there. They don't defend their reinforcements in a reinforcement-based game.
In other words, despite the fact the Horde is defending its nodes, Alliance refuses to. So they lose in Stormstrike and then claim the map is imbalanced.
Fraufrau Feb 8th 2008 12:07PM
@bonch
'Boycott is when you refuse participation in something.'
I am pretty sure that a Boycott is the refusal of participation with the objective of pushing or proving a point. That is not what has happened.
The low (yes it is low not non-existent as a boycott would suggest) participation rate is simply due to a low honor return because the alliance have not adapted to the changes. So instead of pushing for a viable strategy the Alliance of some (including my server/BG) are choosing to focus more on the battelgrounds they can win as a pug.
That isn't the horde's fault nor blizzard's but TBH the horde had 2 years of an unbalanced but still winnable AV and they didn't adapt either.
Andrew Feb 8th 2008 12:01PM
There IS an easy way to test all of this out. Blizzard simply needs to reverse the starting locations for the alliance and horde, while giving alliance the horde npcs and horde the alliance npcs. Make it an april fool's event lasting for a week and giving bonus honor for the week, then see if win/loss ratios change on the various battlegroups.
If alliance suddenly wins a lot more games, then it would be clear that the map does in fact favor the horde. If the horde win a lot more games, it would be clear that the map favors the alliance. If ratios stay the same, then everyone can stop their whining and accept that the map is fair. At least it would provide some proof that would allow everyone to see first-hand.
Ahoni Feb 8th 2008 12:10PM
I would love to actually see that.
Even better, I would like it to be a random thing for every BG.
Most of the posts I have read here today have said the same thing. "If my side plays intelligently we win." Thats really all there is to it. If your side plays dumb, you lose. I see it in AB, I see it in EoTS, I see it in AV (I don't play WSG, hate that place). If you work together, defend the nodes you take, and play a little intelligent D, you win.
Leshrac Feb 8th 2008 12:12PM
You can still, without a doubt, ride from the Alliance starting point across the map and run into the Horde base with little to no resistance.
The Horde IB GY choke point is harder to defend then the Alliance choke point of the bridge. It takes more people to defend Galv, IB tower and IB GY then it does to defend the bridge.
Alliance just wants ezmode, and since they make-up almost +60% of the player base, if not more, Blizzard caters to them. Because in the end they know that Alliance aren't interested in fairness or looking for a new strategy. I have lost some AV matches recently quite quickly, Alliance rode right past the IB GY defense and nailed Drek before the Horde were halfway across the map. It can be done, but then that would require work; something that Alliance has not done in AV for a long time. Give them ezmode or they will give Blizzard QQ.
Its always something - they complain about Horde racials yet, the last time I checked, Team Pandemic, an Alliance arena team was smoking everyone. But it takes less work/effort to QQ then it does to adapt and overcome.
The more I see Alliance QQ about stupid crap the more it fuels that fire in my gut to kill them, and I have over 50hks and I've loved every single one and my appetite has not waned a single bit - I love killing Alliance. Keep QQ'ing pussies - I'm reloading.
Shadowfury Feb 8th 2008 12:03PM
For those who don't know why the reinforcements mechanic gave horde the advantage, i will try to explain.
By giving a time limit to AV, the horde now tries to make a good defense to turtle, securing some kind of advantage quickly. It's like they score a point on a soccer game and stop attacking. They contruct a brick wall and hold it in the hopes that the alliance don't overrun it. And it works.
On old AV, people would get tired of defending and the defense would shatter before a good offensive was planned. The constant alliance attack would win one time or another. Now there's a objective ahead, the reinforcements, the defense can just wait the win. It's not overcomplicated
Peepintom Feb 8th 2008 12:08PM
My battle group never wins. I am probably 0 for 20 in AV the last few months. To say a fix is not needed because 1 or 2 battlegroups are doing well for Allys is silly. AV is broken.
Dilunae Feb 8th 2008 12:11PM
Ha! The horde whines just as much as the Alliance. It has been said many times Blizzard will not pay attention to you unless you're an undead rogue. The fact of the matter is the horde are much better at PVP than the allies are so why do they need all these advantages? AV is the only bg in which Alliance has any sort of chance in winning and that is because we have to race towards FWGY and the RH. Horde can actually take their time if they defend the RH and GY. Trust me their keep is not as hard to defend as people say. There are 2 or 3 choke points when trying to enter the grounds and constant LOS issues. So the horde can actually pick off invaders fairly easily. The reason they lose is b/c alliance has to rush and b/c of rushing we don't gain as much honor as if we were to advance at a good pace.
All this article proves is someone is QQing about Blizzard's call to fix it. It is blatant QQing in it's most basic form. QQing about QQing. Their are gross imbalances to all the aspects of pvp. Not just maps.
Scoottie Feb 8th 2008 12:25PM
AV needs to go back to the way it was before cross servers. Those were the epic days of 6 day AV and where people actually PvP'd