The AV map imbalance in patch 2.3: a different perspective

In fact, if we go over to Warcraft Realms, we'll see that the Alliance win quite a good number of AV games, too. Furthermore, in some Battlegroups, they completely dominate Alterac Valley. Maybe the Horde of those Battlegroups should read David's article. In it, David outlines how the new Reinforcement mechanic favors the Horde because the map design allows Horde players to reach Stonehearth Bunker, a key objective that awards +63 Honor when burned and eliminates 75 Reinforcements, before the Alliance can reach Iceblood Tower. The new Reinforcement mechanic also makes Iceblood Graveyard a critical defensive bastion that, if defended fully, supposedly prevents the Alliance from getting any Honor from Alterac Valley.
What QQ Can Get YouThe situation became so bad for some Battlegroups such as Stormstrike and Bloodlust (the vaunted BG9) that Alliance stopped queuing for Alterac Valley altogether. With so much Alliance QQ, Blizzard quickly hotfixed Balinda and Vanndar and went to work on more fixes for Alterac Valley. It's a considerably rapid response by Blizzard's standards. This bothers me on several levels. First of all, Alterac Valley has geographically favored the Alliance ever since its inception. This is just a fact. Stormpike Graveyard is the most fortified objective in the game as it is uphill and flanked by ridges from which Alliance can situate themselves to snipe assaulting Horde. It is followed by the Dun Baldar bridge, which is a true bottleneck as opposed to the Iceblood pass because it's a bridge. You can't go around it. You will fall. In fact, it's such a notorious imbalance that Wing Commander Ichman references it in the quest he gives out in Shadowmoon Valley. He states, "War isn't fair! To hell with 'em all!"
That pretty much summed up how Blizzard treated the AV map imbalance for quite some time. It was only in Patch 2.3, over two years after Alterac Valley was released, that drastic balance changes were made. Before the changes, Kalgan went on the record to state that Alliance won as much as 75% to 80% of AV games while win-loss ratios in other BGs were just about even, indicating that the problem was with the map. A few changes were made in Patch 2.2, which Kalgan reported drew the gap closer to Alliance winning about 60% of AV matches. On the horizon, however, looms more changes to Alterac Valley, mere months after Patch 2.3 and the Alliance boycotts. Blizzard moving at blazing speed? Uncanny!
Without Even Trying
The good news is, Blizzard seems to be quick about addressing the issue. The bad news is, it seems like the only way to get Blizzard's attention is to QQ. Loudly. Or more succinctly, to not play at all and make a huge stink about it. As statistics indicate, the Alliance can and do still win AV under the new mechanics. In fact, in many Battlegroups, the Alliance dominate. One argument that the boycotting Alliance point out is that under the new mechanics, losing nets them 0 Honor. This prompted one blogger to post his thoughts on the matter, calling out what he calls the "Zero Honor Fallacy".
In his post, he outlines what he thinks is the best way the Alliance can eke out Honor from the new mechanics... even if it turns out to be a loss. It's a bit superfluous if you consider that according to statistics, the Alliance continue to dominate AV in some Battlegroups, and the vaunted boycott was more the exception than the rule. What he says, essentially, is that the Alliance should "play the new AV instead of the old one", and he's absolutely right. He echoes a sentiment that ran through my head when I first read about the supposed widespread boycotts -- people aren't even trying. He writes, "the current belief (that AV is broken) prevails so much people don't even put a honest effort into the game anymore."
If it ain't broke... don't break itThat's what's most irksome about the boycotts. People aren't even trying. The fact is, an Iceblood chokepoint defense is not insurmountable. Because it is highly defensible if the Horde put an effort into it, don't attempt to take Iceblood! Use it as a feint, a distraction, and instead go after Frostwolf Graveyard, the most open objective in the game. In the Battlegroups where Alliance win their fair share and even dominate, the Alliance have learned to adapt to the new game and go past the Iceblood barrier and head straight South to FWGY and the easy-to-ninja Relief Hut. The Iceblood pass, unlike the bridge at Dun Baldar, is not a true chokepoint. It can be skipped with a bit of focus. Sticking to the west, offense that remain mounted can bypass most defenses because the chokepoint is a fair distance from the Iceblood Graveyard flag, which the Horde should theoretically defend.
What this does is force the defenders of Iceblood to fall back or face the consequences. Alliance should capitalize on the weaknesses of the Horde and actually play the game. It's counter-intuitive, but it works. Tagging the Southern Graveyards will do one of two things: 1) lessen the defense at Iceblood, or 2) allow the Alliance to capture them and consequently toss rezzers to the North. It becomes a relatively easy matter to capture any untagged Northern towers after that. Again, this strategy is counter-intuitive, but it's adaptive to an Iceblood chokepoint defense.
One thing that most people don't take into account is that game outcomes are never set. But it seems that some people simply don't bother to make the effort to actually fight in the Battleground. You're never assured that you opponents will do exactly the same thing battle after battle. War is fluid, and players should learn to adapt. What the boycotts demonstrate is a refusal to adapt to the situation and simply cry foul. They look at the imbalance and accept defeat as a foregone conclusion.
Is the map imbalanced under the new mechanics? Yes, definitely. There's a clear advantage that the Horde enjoys because they reach a critical objective ahead of the Alliance. With the Reinforcement and Honor implications that come with a Captain, the weakness of Balinda Stonehearth was a disadvantage, as well. But the map was not unwinnable. Neither was the Honor gain insignificant. Surely, it could happen that the Horde play the game well enough to prevent the Alliance from capturing any objectives, but played right, the Alliance could throw counters as long as they played adaptively.But playing adaptively takes effort, and it appears that some people won't make that effort. If the Horde defense is focused on Galvangar, skip him. If they're heavy at Iceblood Graveyard, focus on heading straight for the Southern targets. If they don't defend at all -- which happens on more than a few Battlegroups -- then it's all fair game. Focus defense on Stonehearth Bunker -- a defensive-minded Horde crew won't be sending more than a handful of people to cap it, if even that. Sadly, as blogger Altitis mentions, the Alliance should write Balinda off. Interestingly enough, in the games that the Alliance do win, Galvangar is dead long before the Horde are able to take down Balinda, possibly as a result of the hotfix that Blizzard did.
Getting your fix
Let's make one thing clear: fixing Alterac Valley is a good thing. What isn't so cool is how the World of Warcraft community seems to have gotten Blizzard's attention. David Bowers said, "Assuming a relative equality of gear, player skill and morale (and of course AFKers), the Horde can decide to make AV a slow but certain victory," under the new mechanics. But given how Stormpike Graveyard and the bridge at Dun Baldar are far easier to defend than their Horde counterparts -- Frostwolf Graveyard is on an open plain, for example, as opposed to SPGY which is ensconced within ridges on an uphill path -- the same exact statement was true for the old Alterac Valley where the goal was to reach the General at the end. So true, in fact, that the Alliance won a up to a whopping 80% of the games.
Despite the statistics showing how imbalanced the map was, despite the number of posts asking for fixes, and despite Blizzard making jokes about it on their quest texts, the map imbalance stayed that way for over two years. On the other hand, the changes announced for 2.4 come very swiftly. Was it a response to the boycotts? Because it certainly seems that way. If this is what it takes for Blizzard to listen to its customers, then it sets a bad precedent for the game and the community at large.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 7)
turkeyspit Feb 8th 2008 12:27PM
The Horde lost 99% of AVs before 2.3...bought got decent honor.
The Alliance lose (on some battlegroups) 99% of AVs after 2.3, and get zero honor.
When will you people realize this already??
Give Alliance the amount of honor the Horde used to get for losing pre-2.3, and the boycott/queues will disappear. If the Horde had been recieving 20 honor for each round pre-2.3, they would have QQ'ed just as fast, and things would have changed. Making it sound like Alliance is getting 'special' treatment from Blizzard borders on retarded, as we all know they cater to the Horde. (find me a CM with an Alliance main?)
This fix is afterall, designed to get Alliance back into AV which will help out 'who' with 1hr queue times? The Horde.
And btw, the Log Fence t around FW Keep is just as bad a chokepoint as the Bridge (can't go around it), and the IB corridor has ALWAYS been a good chokepoint...but the Horde spent all their time QQ'ing over the bridge, they never saw that. In my Battlegroup, I'm seeing the horde consistently defending IBGY FTW, or stalling the Alliance O at the FW fence until their O grinds Van into the dirt, or reinforcements are gone.
Rob Feb 8th 2008 12:42PM
Here's the thing guys. For most of us, it doesn't matter if we win or lose. It matters how much honor we get. We use AV to farm honor. In total according to warcraft realms, Horde wins the other 3 BGs most of the time, while we are even on AV. Which means that AV is probably fine as is. But, it sure would be nice to go into any BG, one of the four, and stand a good chance of winning. On our battlegroup, we dominate AV, but can't win in the other 3 to save our soul.
Plus the honor reward for AV is so dynamic. I played a game two days ago and got about 50 honor. Yes, 50 honor. I played a game last night and got a win, and got 1400 honor (inc the daily quest bonus). The dispairities are huge.
I think everyone would be happiest just zerging for the generals, caping things, getting the honor. Whoever downs the general first wins, but *both sides get honor*. It really sucks to be playing for 30 min and have literally nothing to show for it. So yeah the horde can play D and recap everything, and it really pisses me off, its just mean. Hey its war right? If we wanted to recap the towers we could do that too, but so far in our bg nobody does it.
jr Feb 8th 2008 1:10PM
It isn't mean or pointless to recap and D up towers, if you can do it without dragging out the game. You get honor for every tower still up when you win.
Dan Feb 8th 2008 2:18PM
Actually, Jr, if you're in a situation where both sides are zerging the general and trying to down him and win as fast as possible, it really IS kind of mean to recap the towers, since they spawn the warmasters. If both sides are openly trying to win as fast as possible, recapping the towers slows everyone down.
Laukidh Feb 8th 2008 12:55PM
Last night I lost 9 out of 11 AV matches as Horde. Normally its more like 1 in 10 in this battlegroup.
If alliance plays well, they can win. Zerg to RH, recap IW/SH/SHGY, and horde is left standing around the aid station, watching van, wondering why there are still two marshals up. There are no NPCs that'll cause real trouble taking and holding RH, unlike Aid, and once you cap, you can hold it easily against the 10-15 people on D.
DavidC Feb 8th 2008 1:05PM
The original article was superficial in nature and wrong on several levels. Even this blogger doesn't understand the mechanics of AV (ie: bunker reduce the opposite side by 100, not 75).
The early game favors the horde, then late game favors the alliance.
Horde Choke points (defense) are a joke compared to the Alliance Choke points.
Alliance have far less "exposure" to Horde Archers at East / West then Horde.
Horde Tower archers do not "cover" the End Flag (relief hut) where as the Alliance bunker Archers do.
Finally, due to SP GY long choke point, when ally die early in the game, it actually 'slows' down Horde offense. (Since nobody lets Ally Offense ride down the road to get back to offense). This causes Alliance turtles that make for 40-50 mins games.
Bottomline is that it *doesn't* really matter who wins AV ... all that matters is that game end quickly with high honor. It's better to take 4 bunkers, your captain, and Wing commanders and end the game in 11 mins with 312-355 honor, then to try to "D'up" your 4 towers / bunkers for the extra 160 Honor.
That extra 160 honor usually extends the game from 11/12 mins to 20/30 mins.
Dan Feb 8th 2008 2:35PM
First of all, I can't believe you had the audacity to chastise the OP for 'not understanding the mechanics of AV,' when really it is you, my friend, who does not understand the mechanics of AV.
-- Losing bunkers/towers costs 75 reinforcements. A dead captain = 100 reinforcements lost.
-- The bridge to Dun Baldar may be pretty awesome for alliance, but IBGY is NOT a 'joke' of a choke point. Furthermore, you yourself acknowledge that Horde can use IWB as a chokepoint, to prevent Alliance from returning to offense.
-- The fact is, in a lot of battlegroups, the horde turtles at IBGY chokepoint, caps SHGY, all the alliance dies trying to assault IBGY or defend shGY, then they are trapped by the IWB chokepoint. Since, as you may have noticed, we have now moved to a timed, reinforcement-based game, this results in nonstop losses for alliance because you will never let their players return to offense. Plus the losses are usually with often 0 and hardly ever more than 100 bonus honor. HMMM I WONDER WHY PEOPLE STOP QUEUING?!
jr Feb 8th 2008 1:06PM
I hate how Blizz loves the alliance so much, I mean at one time they won 80% of the time, now that its slightly more than 60% in the horde's favor Blizz jumps on "fixing" it.
I say there is nothing wrong but lack of skill on the part of allies. Take AB there isn't any "map" imbalance and horde dominates there. Horde wins because it is better at pvp not because of some "imbalance".
Aeryk Feb 8th 2008 1:11PM
You know what it takes to break through any chokepoint in AV...1 rogue....this goes for horde or alliance.
I cant tell you how many times I have broken through the lines and started the cap timer on both towers and aid station/releif hut, forcing a group of defenders to abandon their chokepoint or lose the base.
Honestly, its even easier as an alliance rogue, as you dont have a bridge you can fall off of.
Justus Feb 8th 2008 1:13PM
This writer obviously plays horde. This article is a well written play to get alliance to ignore the obvious imbalance.
Do you really think this article will make alliance feel guilty about disliking the way Blizzard makes it so EVERY battleground is horde controlled?
Smart people don't listen to manipulative propaganda like this.
wowtard Feb 8th 2008 2:40PM
> Blizzard makes it so EVERY battleground is horde controlled?
The terrain and objectives of the other BGs are even, where strategy and actually being able to PvP counts. Which is why Horde dominates every time - most Alliance just suck at real pvp.
Trantor Feb 8th 2008 1:34PM
Here's some perspective:
People not playing the game is completely different from QQing. People not playing the game means failure of the worst kind from a Bliz perspective. So, yes, unlike what Horde faced or Alliances faces every day in WSG, the long que times were an emergency for Bliz. And they responded quickly (for them).
This is completely different from QQing.
Second point: I'm on Ruin and we win a lot more than horde. But that is because horde do not defend IB GY. Maybe because they too do not want a long, boring game. But for whatever reason, the fact that Alliance wins a lot does not change the problem with IB GY.
About the "run through" strategy. Yes, this works, because Horde don't know what to do about it. But it's harder to pull off than you make it sound. Even when capping FW or RH, if a few horde start defending, Alliance rezzes far away, which ultimately leads to failure. So with 20 defenders instead of the usual 10-15, Horde still can pull it off.
However, the ultimate point is that all this focus on IB GY is boring. I think Bliz should weaken the IB chokepoint but then strengthen the Horde base. That would be more interesting. Horde defends IB, then falls back and defends the base. Alliance crumples quickly to the base and tries to hold on. It's a race between one fantastic defensive point vs. two good ones. And this way both get captains and cap two towers, for some good honor reward.
Scoottie Feb 8th 2008 1:25PM
Another thought aslo, why doesnt blizzard just get rid of the battlegroups and let all the servers (ie US) battle against each other. This way you get a bigger talent pool so it will hopefully even out the lack of talent (or willingness to not be an asshat and AFK)
Pzychotix Feb 8th 2008 2:12PM
K, they'll get right on that when you find a server massive enough to host a couple million people at once.
Good_Idea Feb 8th 2008 1:30PM
>>disliking the way Blizzard makes it so EVERY battleground is horde controlled?
You're joking right? Blizz makes every battleground Horde controlled? lol.
Every map except for AV is a mirror map. Perfectly equal.
So Alliance doesn't win many BGs in your battlegroup, it's up to Blizzard to make a map that heavily favors you?
---------
I guess people missed the whole point of the article.
anonymoose Feb 8th 2008 5:32PM
"Every map except for AV is a mirror map. Perfectly equal. "
Actually not true. WSG I'd say sure, EotS yeah more or less. AB has terrain differences that favor horde--how do I know this? I've played AB as both horde and alliance. Much easier horde side.
Quakehoof Feb 8th 2008 1:33PM
I had wrote a reply to the other article, and this one seems to completely bring light to some of the facts I was trying to say. It almost feels like Yonzon is advocating my word, or thoughts. The alliance are COMPLETELY capable of doing this! I have seen alliance pugs that take out premades. I don't mean to repeat the point here but, if they just applied some strategic mind power to it, they could get rid of the imbalance.
But to what I was saying earlier, thank you Yonzon. Your words ring stronger then mine did.
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/01/16/the-av-map-imbalance-in-patch-2-3/6#c9889474
David Whyld Feb 8th 2008 1:51PM
Thank heavens they're making the changes is all I can say. AV before the patch was great - whether I won or lost, I didn't care because I played it a) for fun and b) for honour. I always got a) and I always got b) so I was happy. The new AV? Bleurgh. You can often tell 5 minutes into the battle whether you're going to lose or not but it usually takes half an hour of the Horde slowly whittling down our reinforcements before we do lose. Fun? Nope. Honour? Gee, 12 honour for 35 minutes played. No wonder there are so many AFK'ers. They've all fallen asleep at the keyboard.
Danath Feb 8th 2008 1:45PM
Stormpike is one of the most fortified defensive positions? the spots you claim alliance can go to snipe is where horde regularly goes to snipe ALLIANCE, horde always employ the "sneak around back going under the bridge" or "climb on top of the mountain and wait for alliance to spawn"
Sometimes they purposely let themselves get pushed back and launch a big push at stormpike from behind us and take it while were up near the chokepoint at icewing.
Stormpike is anything but hard to take, narrow entrance to it yes, but its attackable from just about every direction.
Dave H. Feb 8th 2008 5:29PM
How else would you propose that players get Blizzard's attention to an in-game problem? Should we send them flowers with a little note attached asking that they look into it? Perhaps we can all chip in to have a plane fly by their offices with a banner saying "Hey! Alterac Valley appears to have issues!"
The tone of your article makes it clear that you're a die-hard Horde player. Obviously, the Alliance is just "QQing" rather than addressing a serious concern.
Also, your statistics are faulty. WarcraftRealms is hardly the greatest source of information on the game. Its statistics are supplied by the tiny fraction of the population that runs its associated addon and then upload their data. I trust that Blizzard is making changes to Alterac Valley based on results they're seeing in their own, far more accurate, data and their own experiences when they play the game.