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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsGetting what you paid for: Should the endgame be accessible to casuals?
by Amanda Dean 
Feb 15th 2008 at 1:00PM
Hardcore players are frustrated with game changes that benefit more casual players. Casuals are overwhelmed by the amount of play time required to be competitive in the endgame. This brings up the question of who deserves to see the complete story unfold.
Seraphina of Baelgun brought up the issue of accessibility to endgame content on the WoW official forums. Like all of the other Warcraft games, WoW has an interesting and compelling story line, with several sub-stories along the way. While all players pay for the same content, not all of them can experience it. In many role playing games, once you've played through certain story line elements you can access the endgame content. Relatively few players will be able to complete the Sunwell Plateau prior to the release of Wrath of the Lich King, just as relatively few players were able to down Naxxramas before Burning Crusade was launched.
In WoW, the PvE endgame is earned. Players work their way through attunements and gear upgrades. Raiding is exciting, time-consuming, rewarding, and frustrating. Those who have put the effort in the game clearly deserve exceptional rewards for their efforts. Seraphina suggested optional levels of difficulty for the raid instances with scaled rewards. This suggestion would undermine the efforts made by raiders, however, because there would really be no reason to gear up for the next challenge.
Certainly we all have different goals in the game. There is certainly a division between raiders and PvPers. Some players are compelled by advancement while others seek companionship. Seraphina stated that she is dedicated to loyalties to her in-game friends and guildies. Her unwillingness to abandon them in favor of a more accomplished guild has stunted her ability to experience the endgame content. I respect that. This player has chosen loyalty over progress, I respect that.
I can see both sides of this argument. Many players will have to be content with raid videos to see the raid content. Personally, I'm cool with that. I'm not a raider, and I don't want to be. Thanks for taping the battles for me, and congrats on your accomplishments. I can't wait to vicariously down Kil'jaeden in patch 2.4. Good hunting.
Whatever your game, just make sure you enjoy it along the way. What do you think, should the endgame be accessible to all players?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Quests, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 7)
turkeyspit Feb 15th 2008 1:57PM
The above was directed to #34, Natiri
Stupid reply button
Naturii Feb 15th 2008 3:27PM
You use words like "easysauce" and call me a 13yr old in the same post. Good one. If you want to be an adult I'd suggest you stop adding -tard to words. Whine more on message boards, I'm sure blizzard is listening to your thoughts as they count their money.
Khanmora Feb 15th 2008 1:59PM
Blizzard is learning and evolving the game along the way. They are dropping attunements, they are making attempts to get everyone involved with bosses (i.e. the "new" Kael'thas in MT, and from what we have heard interactions with Arthas).
The raiders have their day in the sun for 6 months or a year when they are the only ones that have enough time/drive to see the content. Then Blizz starts to open it up to the more casual players. As they learn, they adapt. They are hearing both sides of the argument and trying to make sure that everyone has access to the lore.
I think we are going to continue to see this type of progression in dropping attunements, nerfing bosses, etc. and will see more casuals pugging through it to get their chance to see the lore (we have a pug on my server that has downed Vashj now for goodness sake). WotLK will also bring lore more directly to people through questlines I believe.
TLDR version, Blizz is working on getting everyone access.
Kal Feb 15th 2008 2:00PM
Seraphina suggested optional levels of difficulty for the raid instances with scaled rewards. This suggestion would undermine the efforts made by raiders, however, because there would really be no reason to gear up for the next challenge.
Why? The people that wanted to run the instance to actually see the instance and play some version of it would be able to. They'd just not be able to get as good of loot. The people that wanted to do it for challenges and to get the best gear possible could do that too. It's like saying that no one would run a heroic because there are normal versions of instances.
Heck, having a normal/heroic version of a raid would likely mean people could run a raid early to gear up so they could then run the 'heroic' version later. It would be another progression method, which would only improve the grind.
I'm failing to see how making an easier version of content somehow diminishes the accomplishment and desires of the people who are doing it at the tougher levels.
Ryan Feb 15th 2008 2:09PM
Its fairly simple, adapt the normal and heroic dungeon difficulties to raid instances, except, heroic versions would be today's raid zone's as they currently are, and normal versions would be trashless or very little trash, soloable-duoable bosses and *NO* loot drops whatsoever. The person who said earlier that badge drops and vortexes would be a sufficient loss of reward for an easier instance is ludicrous considering the quality of gear they're making available through crafting and badges alone, and t6 quality loot in 2.4 to boot.
There, everything solved, the hardcore get to keep their raid zones uneffected from casual players complaints, and the casual players can now experience all the lore characters at their own pace and with whoever they want.
The only possible problem would come from the people who want end-game equal quality loot for much less effort, and why these people should be catered too is beyond me.
Urthona Feb 15th 2008 2:12PM
"ludicrous" thanks.
Getting a total of 13 badges for clearing an easy mode of SSC doesn't buy you anything right off the bat. Whining about the availability of badge loot is a similar discusson to this one, but it's still just whining. In fact, I'd almost prefer all loot in the game to be badge vendored. It allows for gear to be specifically tailored to a class while also giving one the chance to consistently work toward a goal, rather than wait for the RNG.
Easy mode endgame progression raids need to have some kind of motivation, and blues or kara equiv gear isn't going to do it. The reward to motivate has to be something that can accumulate and benefit the player in the long run.
Ryan Feb 15th 2008 2:32PM
13 badges maybe not, but 13 badges from a "easy-mode" SSC + 10 or more from an "easy-mode" TK + 22 from Karazhan + 10 or more from ZA + Daily heroics and oh look what we have here, a whole lot more badges easily acquired compared to other means of gaining the same loot quality, saying "only" 13 badges was another badly thought out point.
And no there does not need to be any motivation for casual players through gear, every casual complaining for the "experience the lore" argument doesn't need gear to motivate them to "experience" these zones now does it? They want to "see" the bosses and "experience" killing them, gear doesn't effect that feeling or desire. Unless of course they're all using the "experience" argument like so many people do as an excuse to gain epics. Its the same story every time, give them what they're asking for (which going by my previous suggestion would do just that, every casual could kill the easy mode bosses) and they'll soon jump to the next complaint up, why aren't they getting epic.
Milktub Feb 15th 2008 2:02PM
Maybe it's a generation gap or something, but when I played video games as a kid, pre-teen and teen, it was expected that the game would be tough to beat. You wouldn't see the "endgame" unless you were good enough at the "beginninggame" and "midgame".
WoW just steps it up a notch. Not only do you need to be good enough, but you also need 9 or 24 others who are good enough who play at the same time as you.
turkeyspit Feb 15th 2008 2:12PM
The problem isn't the difficulty. If people needed 24 friends to see Mario work his way to victory, nobody would have ever finished it! Nobody is complaining that BT is "too hard", they are complaining that it takes 25 people who have dedicated months of time to gear up, in order to clear it.
40 Man raids were ridiculous, with only maybe 5-8% of the total population of players seeing past the gates of BWL, MC, AQ40 or Naxx.
Fastforward to BC where the instances are HARDER, and you see Blizzard has realized the error of their ways, and made the largest party only a 25 man. Sadly, that is still unattainable for most people, since I believe the stats of Raiders hovers at the 10% range. (correct me if I'm wrong).
So 10% of 10 million subscribers is.......well you get the picture. Seems like an aweful lot of people aren't getting everything out of the game that they are paying for, and through no real fault of their own. If it took 25-man Raid parties to complete the 3 BEM quests leading up to the Ogrilla dailies, how many people do you think would be there banishing demons or wrangling rays?
The Sunwell Isle idea sounds interesting. Have a 5-man and a 25-man version of the dungeon. Will it work? We will see.
What closeminded, oft-times immature adolescant Raidtards need to understand, is that the MAJORITY of WoW players don't care about their e-peens, their orange lewtz, or rare Mount drops. They just want to see the end of storylines/lore that is built up during SOLO and 5-MAN play.
I don't think that is being at all unreasonable.
Mark Feb 15th 2008 2:08PM
I think that Blizzard actually does a decent job here of making content available to hardcore players first and then opening it up to casual players later. The removal of attunments, and the availability of gear through PVP or other means are examples of this.
Hard-core players get to experience the game first, but after a while, everyone gets to get in on the fun. Eventually everyone will be able to see the content, but it may be after the release of the next expansion.
It's a fine line to walk, but the people who are looking for a serious challenge and are willing to put in tons of work do deserve to see the content first. They are breaking new ground, and working on the bleeding edge of the content. They have had to work to get the gear just to allow them to survive the encounter, then come up with the tactics to defeat the encounter. It's a lot of work. And casual players are--by definition--not gear or coordinated enough to make this happen.
Remember that being one of the first to down a new boss often takes months of effort. Time to get geared, attuned, and a whole bunch of time wiping endlessly trying to figure out how to down the critter. This amount of effort and coordination is outside the realm of possibility for a PUG group of casuals, initially.
And just to add another wrinkle, often throughout the process of having the very best players down a boss, Blizzard is tuning the encounter so that it's even possible for these elite groups to down the boss.
However, after an expansion, gear will drop that allow casuals to engage in the encounter, and successful tactics born from experience will appear on the web so that people will know what to do. At this point Blizzard drops some of the hoops that people need to jump through and make it available to everyone.
Even with gear, and with tactics, it can still take a number of trys to drop a significant boss. Encounters are becoming more involved and require more coordination amongst players. Expect that trend to continue.
Ultimately, it's not a question of whether you pay the money and get to see the content. It's a question of *when* you get to see the content. Ultimately, you need to decide if you want to be patient, or want to be impatient, but heavily involved. Either way, it'll be a while before you get to kill the Next Big Boss.
zikko Feb 15th 2008 2:08PM
Should all end game content be accessible to the casual players? No! Hardcore players deserve the bragging rights.
The problem as I see it is just how Blizz decided to spend the money they make. I, as a casual player, pay the same amount as the hardcore player for the game. But the casual players (and more so the RPers!) don't get that much content in the free patches! I once saw a survey (unfortunately I can't find it anymore) which said that around 10% or so made it to Ragnaros (pre-TBC of course). So Blizzard spent a lot of the money from the monthly subscription for instances which the majority of the community never saw! But they payed for it.
I also asked myself recently how long it will take the PvPers to ask for new arenas, because the PvPers also send the same amount of money to Blizzard every month.
glaci3r Feb 15th 2008 2:08PM
I agree with quite a few posters. When I had the free time (oh i wish i was in college again), I raided and ate up the lore. I recall enjoying the lore involved in getting the AQ scepter. Then life happened and I was forced to quit raiding right as Naxx came out.
I see no problem in providing lore to more casual players who are invested in the story of their world. I know there were quite a few raiders with me who didn't care about the lore, just being good at the game. I am not sure I would ask Blizzard to scale down instances to have multiple versions though. I'd rather have my patches not take so long to be released.
I just feel there is a better way of getting the lore out without extra coding and not on wowwiki.
Doug Feb 15th 2008 2:28PM
Viewing ease of endgame raid access as a static thing is oversimplifying. Until recently, TBC raids required lots of attunement and difficult to acquire gear. Now, with attunements removed and excellent badge/pvp gear available, accessing TBC raid content is much easier. Thats a good thing because, soon, WotLK will come out and nobody will ever do those raids again. I think Blizzard is trying to give the rest of us a shot at the TBC endgame content before it becomes irrelevant.
Don Feb 15th 2008 2:45PM
As a retired raider I can see where the casuals are coming from. I miss seeing those epic fights and seeing the storyline progress. But I dont agree with making the raid easier. That takes the epic feel out of it IMO.
This probably is impossible to code but I would love to see a mode where you can bring 1-5 players in and the rest of your raid is npcs that do the work. Obviously you wouldnt get any loot or maybe something small like 1 badge per run but for those that just want to see and participate in the fights it would be perfect. For those that dont have good enough gear to survive the encounters maybe there could be some kind of buff system at the beginning to bring them up to par stat wise.
Or.... for those that dont want to take the time to learn the encounters Blizzard could make a cinematic of a raid group fighting the bosses and the storyline cut scenes and make them available on their site. It would be nice to see a raid encounter video without someones ui in the way and at a good resolution.
Rob Feb 15th 2008 2:32PM
I'm a hardcore raider, and yeah i think the game should be more open to casuals. Its very difficult to get 10 people let alone 25 or 40 people completely focused for 4-5 hours at a time to go kill stuff and get purple loot. I think 10 mans are a good size, big enough to feel it, but not overwealmingly complex. 25mans are just too big, you are lost in the crowd.
My opinion is that everyone pays their money and plays the game that they want. Want to PVP, go ahead. Want to level a zillion alts, go ahead? Want to see BT? Go ahead. Its alot of work to be the first guild clearing a path through a new instance, without overwealming gear. Once gear becomes more obtainable the goal because slightly easier (since the only thing between kara and BT is gear). So i think it's good that higher end gear will be available to more casual players, so they dont have to wipe all the time in early 25mans. Of course getting the 25 people together is another story.
Ryan Feb 15th 2008 2:36PM
There's a myriad amount of t5+ quality gear available to the player that only pvps/dailys/heroic/10 mans. The days of Raiding being the only means to good gear is in the past. Your comment makes no sense, you don't need to raid to gain equal gear, you're simply not gaining the absolute top-notch gear, and even then t6 is no where near the increase from t5 or pvp gear that t3 from t2 and 1 was. The game has changed alot more regarding the casual/hardcore debate then you give it credit for.
Rochmoninoff Feb 15th 2008 2:35PM
I believe the hardspot that raiders have with "welfare" is that it devalues their effort.
We should all respect that.
I don't care about those Epics Lewts. I'd like to be able to see end-game content without using the model viewer. Scaling down to 5 or 10 man instances later in the year (with less awesome lewts) would be fine by me.
Just opening up access is useless. As noted above: a PUG would be slaughtered. And trying to raid with large groups (byeyond 10) isn't an option for me due to RL constraints.
I'd be fine if this option wasn't available till bigger/better things were presented to the "serious raiders". But I pay my $15 a month and I'd like to see the content too.
Mike Feb 15th 2008 3:37PM
Why should anything I do or not do devalue another players fun? If I solo endgame and get a regular blue drop while the hardcore raider gets a crazy purple why should he/she care? It's clear they are hardcore and I am casual. He worked harder and I didn't but how does that effect him?
Salty Feb 15th 2008 2:35PM
Eh, half the people here are just stating over and over again that they're tourists. You do realize that can go to any one of these top end guilds' web sites and download their kill videos. You can read the entire questlines on Thottbot and WoWwiki. There's your story line. Now if you want to be there with your character, you really need to be able to play your character at raid-level skill and have at least minimum experience in Karazhan. Find a good talent build, some castsequence macros, do a little theorycrafting. You need to read the fight tactics, find some forum discussions on the ins-and-outs, farm or do dailies for a week or so to fund your gems and enchants. Then app to a moderate raiding guild and commit to 3 hours for 3 nights and have fun with it. Not all raiders are pulling 6 hour shifts 5 nights a week, and not all raiders are elitist Nazis. Attunement causes that more so than the challenges of the raid bosses. With no attunements, there's no reason you can't come into BT/Hyjal beyond your own skill - so get to work in whatever time span you can manage. Just don't play
Salty Feb 15th 2008 2:41PM
And by the way, I can guarantee you 99.5% of all guilds clearing high end content are not there immersed in the lore. They're talking to each other about their stats, setting up healing, buffing, tanking and cc assignments or yelling at each other about who caused that sheep to break. You're better off watching a vent-muted kill video or reading the strats on WoWwiki, at least that's peaceful enough to glean some story.
I'm out here shooting arrows up this sea giant's asshole while murlocs keep pestering us. What the hell does this have to do with a swamp on an alien world and an interdimensional portal? Just unlock the Vashj door so we can get into that really impossibly hard level we all used cheat codes to beat at the end of Warcraft III.