Forum post of the day: Welfare Epics
by Amanda Dean 
Feb 18th 2008 at 3:00PM
What does it take to get epic gear? Well you can do arenas or battlegrounds and save up points for gear. It takes a few weeks of arenas to get a piece of the most recent releases. A good weekend of battlegrounds might net you a piece or two. You can do raids for epic drops. It can take weeks to learn fights and clear raids. A hard night of raiding could earn you nothing but a repair bill.
Among raiding and PvP, which shows more dedication and skill? The term "welfare epic" has popped up to describe gear that some believe is given to a player without the appropriate level of effort. In his official forum post, Kaizersosay of Spirestone asserted that there are no welfare epics- that every piece of purple loot takes effort. He said that the phrase welfare epic is elitist. The thread sparked a lively discussion of welfare epics for both PvE and PvP players.
Players can get PvP gear without a single win or a kill by doggedly queuing up for battlegrounds and arenas. Blizzard has been making this type of gear increasingly easy to get by introducing daily quests that give honor. They have also made arena gear available for honor points rather than arena points. In this scenario, it could take several weeks to get a piece of season three equipment. You don't have to be good, just persistent.
The other side of the argument is that raiding gear in many circumstances could be considered welfare epics. A single player does not necessarily have to pull their weight to get the best gear they just have to be present. (Though guilds would likely have words with such a player) Also, once a guild has an instance on farm status, they may trade out their mains for alts and gear up those toons without putting in an extraordinary raid effort. Again, you don't have to be good, just persistent?
What is a welfare epic?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Spoony Feb 18th 2008 3:14PM
I'm sorry but when i can sit in a battle ground and not kill a person and get purples out of it that's just handing people gear. I actually play but nothing is forcing me to except people complaining at me.
Alt run raids still require people to have full gear for the place their entering the only reason those are so easy is because the alts already know the fight and thats most of the difficulty.
People who don't pull their wait in a raid get kicked and someone else brought in. You can't boot people from Battlegrounds for being morons.
Breezer Feb 19th 2008 12:19AM
people who do literally nothing in BGs are the vast minority.
IMO PvP is infinitely more dynamic and challenging than PvE.
And if a paladin can get purples by standing in the back of a raid and casting 2 spells for a couple hours, I should be able to get a purple by playing BGs for hours and hours and hours and hours.
Algorithm Feb 18th 2008 4:47PM
I agree.
Season 1 Honor Gear:
Season 1 Arena Armor is item level 123. To get this, you need to win 0 games. You need to kill 0 people. You need to have 0 friends, can be any spec, and can do it naked. You will always get the item that will give you the biggest boost next.
Even if you are skilled, your estimated contribution to winning (and, therefore, getting the gear faster) ranges between 10% (in the worst possible battleground for honor: WSG) to 0.25% (in the best battleground for honor: AV).
Let's take this into consideration, and look at average faction wins from Warcraftrealms. In my bracket: being categorically better than every person in the game is worth less in terms of speeding up the aquisition of PvP gear than simply being horde. You can grind honor faster by being an average player and being an orc than you can by being exceptional and being a human.
Kara:
Karazhan loot ranges from level 115-125. For the worst possible player, you have a 10% chance of being the weak link in your group, and in some encounters, such as Shade of Aran, your lack of competence can actually hurt the raid (i.e. Flame Wreath). Failing continuously will earn you no loot.
Kara is only quick when out-geared it and everyone knows the fights. You need a balanced group of people to cooperate and work together. People need to have a 'minimum' level of gear, skill and spec requirement. You cannot guarantee what drops. To earn an entire set of gear through Kara, you would likely have to run it many times. (Decreasing the likelihood that people would let you piggy back as a complete failure).
The time it takes to get PvP gear is linear. The time it takes to get Kara gear could range from infinite (highly unlikely) to one run (highly unlikely).
Let's assume that both sets of gear are equivalent in value to a player. Given the random nature of Karazhan loot, it would take longer to get any given piece of loot or an entire set on average. It also requires more skill to get Karazhan loot (by default, since PvP *requires* no skill).
I will not make an argument for or against allowing PvP gear to be obtained the way it is. I won’t call them “welfare epics.” But calling PvP gear harder to get is wrong. It might be more tedious to get, but then that beckons the question of why you would want to do it in the first place.
jr Feb 19th 2008 10:54AM
@3
totally agree, pvp takes no skill, no friends and really doesn't require attention (go watch tv while you soak up honor)
pve takes friends, skill, coordination and you cannot go afk as you must actually kill something to get the epic.
dan Feb 19th 2008 1:31PM
"The time it takes to get PvP gear is linear. The time it takes to get Kara gear could range from infinite (highly unlikely) to one run (highly unlikely)."
Exactly. And this is the the fundamental issue. Even in lackluster performances in pvp you can net yourself the epic of your choice in less than a month's time. Because of the random loot tables in pve the same can't really be said.
The other issue is progression. PVE your rate of progression is based solely on success. In PVP the rate of progression is based solely on the length of the arena season.
Matt Feb 19th 2008 1:51PM
@3 & 4
while i agree with both of you, the season 1 gear if your looking to raid is complete crap for even raiding kara...so while it may give you a boost its not helping you much more than some of the blue dungeon set pieces...LoL
then again i had some guy tell me i had welfare epics cause i had kara gear on with my frozen shadoweave set... (cause it took no effort to get the 36 primal waters, or get to 375 tailoring right?) then again he/she was mad because i wouldnt duel him after i beat him/her the first time so there ya go...put yourself in an elitist guild that is what you become...a jackass
Ikarus Feb 19th 2008 3:28PM
I have both a rogue and a Spriest that i've geared up via the BG's as I don't really have the time or inclination to jump into the time sink that is raiding.
Buttom line for me is, i worked my ass of for all that gear. I invensted the time (a chunk here, a chunk there) played my best, NEVER afk'd. I know i earned that gear. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
Sure, people can queue up, check out and eventually get their epics. But, that doesn't mean everyone with those epics did that.
HyDekar Apr 12th 2008 9:40AM
At least learn to spell before you post your idiotic comments...
SgtBash Apr 27th 2008 6:08PM
I agree. and now especially with report AFK you cant just do nothing. you have to be a part in the team and you have to keep winning. PVE may take a lot of knowledge but they take nowhere near as long as PvPing all damn weekend just for a few pieces.
SaintStryfe Feb 18th 2008 3:14PM
I worked for over 3 months to save the Honor to buy my S1 Arena set with honor and tokens, and I still don't have the Chest Piece.
Meanwhile, my first Kara run, a whole 30 minutes into it, I had two purple drops (one off Attunment, one Trash drop).
Which one are REALLY welfare epics?
donoteatmikezila Feb 18th 2008 3:38PM
Exactly.
The only people who call them "welfare" epics are people who are unhappy that it's not just the no-lifers that have epics anymore.
For someone who has nothing to do but play WoW, having BT on farm status is barely an effort. For people who can only play maybe a few hours a day, or a few good sessions a week, saving up honor an tokens from battlegrounds, especially if they only play for fun and don't "grind" them, is an epic undertaking worthy of being rewarded with epic gear.
It's perspective.
Bob Feb 18th 2008 3:49PM
It takes five minutes to go AFK. If you are not an honor grinder when was the last time you were in a BG and didn't do anything for FIVE MINUTES? If you go AFK in a BG you should get kicked out.; no more BGs for 24 hours. End of honor grinding, end of problem with welfare epics. If you are casual and actually put in the time PLAYING BGs to get s1/s2 gear via honor it is not welfare, it is a means of gear progression that can accomidate your schedule.
Matt Feb 18th 2008 8:55PM
Except Attumen's purps < S1.
outforprophets Feb 18th 2008 4:42PM
Have to disagree with you there Bob. There are plenty of times I've had to /afk out to do something really quick for my room mates or to get in some arena games before someone has to log. I think what you're confusing is the term afk. People really aren't using it to mean that AV AFKers are actually in game, but rather that they don't participate in fighting or have bots that keep them in combat or casting spells.
multikast Feb 18th 2008 5:18PM
Bob, I think you misunderstand what it means to go AFK in a battleground. If you are actually flagged afk, you WILL get kicked out and given the deserter debuff that lasts like 10 or 15 mins. However, what people mean is that there are those people who are actually sitting at their computer (or botting) and making a conscious effort to not help. Those are the people that are referred to as being "AFK" in a battleground. They will not get the /afk flag because they are moving around (or standing and jumping every so often), but they are not helping the group, and are, for all intents and purposes, AFK.
ShuManFu Feb 18th 2008 6:40PM
Well buddy..
You can fail in battlegrounds and still get your purples... but if you fail in a raid you just get repair bills.
SaintStryfe Feb 18th 2008 7:44PM
Did I mention I died in that Attunemen fight? Should my loot be ignored as a result? (Hey, don't blame me, it was my first time, I rarely raided before and didn't know the fight. I've never died on him since.)
And as for AFKing, sure you could do that. Of course, you could get 9 well geared friends to run you through Kara too for loot. And I don't know if you notice, but AFKing in BGs is a very, very slow way to grind honor. because your lazy arse isnt' helping, a loss is only 150 to 200 honor. Even a good win, with no other help, is 500. It takes 12000 honor for the least expensive piece of armor.
Tarbh Feb 18th 2008 3:15PM
In theory, it is entirely possible for a 5v5 group to -only- /dance arenas and still end up with epics in time. Prizes for participation, as pre-school as that sounds. ("YAAAAY! EVERYONE'S A WINNER!")
Just saying, I think only Chess event really allows you that privilege for PvE, bar the one player who is soloing it (which can be done).
butler Feb 18th 2008 3:15PM
Arena gear requires you to have a team and queue up 10 times per week. You can do 0 damage and 0 healing and eventually get epix. Welfare.
Raid gear you have to get into a guild, get them to let you raid with them, be present when they kill a boss, and convince them to give you gear. This is highly unlikely to happen if you do 0 damage and 0 healing.
As far as I am concerned, the arena system is equivalent to welfare in WoW.
therationalpi Feb 18th 2008 3:16PM
A welfare epic would be a very good item that you can get without putting in time or effort. The only ones I can think of are auction house epics, and possibly BoP crafting epics. The only effort needed is that taken to get the gold. If you got gold, you got lewt.
However, I don't think that even those are welfare epics. You could put that 1k of gold towards an epic flyer, consumables for raids, etc. So the opportunity cost is high. Same deal with BoP craftables. The main compenent there is still gold, because leveling the skill only takes you following a good 1-375 guide.
Some epics are easier to get than others, but those are the exception and not the rule. I don't think that you can really have an entire set of great gear without putting in a good amount of effort. In general, such epics just serve as a way to let people get a foot in the door for upgrading their gear.