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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: Welfare Epics
by Amanda Dean 
Feb 18th 2008 at 3:00PM
What does it take to get epic gear? Well you can do arenas or battlegrounds and save up points for gear. It takes a few weeks of arenas to get a piece of the most recent releases. A good weekend of battlegrounds might net you a piece or two. You can do raids for epic drops. It can take weeks to learn fights and clear raids. A hard night of raiding could earn you nothing but a repair bill.
Among raiding and PvP, which shows more dedication and skill? The term "welfare epic" has popped up to describe gear that some believe is given to a player without the appropriate level of effort. In his official forum post, Kaizersosay of Spirestone asserted that there are no welfare epics- that every piece of purple loot takes effort. He said that the phrase welfare epic is elitist. The thread sparked a lively discussion of welfare epics for both PvE and PvP players.
Players can get PvP gear without a single win or a kill by doggedly queuing up for battlegrounds and arenas. Blizzard has been making this type of gear increasingly easy to get by introducing daily quests that give honor. They have also made arena gear available for honor points rather than arena points. In this scenario, it could take several weeks to get a piece of season three equipment. You don't have to be good, just persistent.
The other side of the argument is that raiding gear in many circumstances could be considered welfare epics. A single player does not necessarily have to pull their weight to get the best gear they just have to be present. (Though guilds would likely have words with such a player) Also, once a guild has an instance on farm status, they may trade out their mains for alts and gear up those toons without putting in an extraordinary raid effort. Again, you don't have to be good, just persistent?
What is a welfare epic?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Ironhide Feb 18th 2008 3:47PM
How many badges do you get for just turning up to a raid zone, and sitting at the entrance? None.
You get honor, marks and arena points for sucking, you dont get squat if you suck at PVE.
PVP is simpler to get to the content, go to any arena master in any city, or battle masters, its convenient.
There is no progression in PVP per say. You dont need an attunement quest to enter AV, or even a minimum level of gear to earn honor/marks/arena points.
You have to complete content to get rewards in PVE, not so much in PVP.
cdb2000 Feb 18th 2008 4:10PM
So, really, your issue is with AFKers as opposed to epic PvP gear?
I can assure you there are many PvPers who show up to fight and win. It doesn't always happen, but they always try. Conversely, I've seen some wondrously lackluster raid performances rewarded with "phat lewtz."
So, who deserves their purples more?
Ironhide Feb 18th 2008 4:22PM
@cdb2000
Actually my issue isnt with PvPers or PvE'ers on this subject. I think making PvP epics readily available is a good thing. they are for the most part useless in PVE (well for me as a Prot Warrior anyhow) and everyone in PvP having access to the same gear is a field leveler of sorts. In other "PvP" type games, such as perhaps FPS shooters, everyone has the same equipment and its up to skill. I see the PvP epics as being along that lines. Everyone can have the same gear and then its largely skill (and spec and other stuff..i know).
If you didnt have them easily available, or yo got nothing for a loss then the gap would widen really quickly between those with gear, and those without.
I was really interested in the Arena tournament they posted recently, everyone on pre-made toons should be interesting.
My main point was I think getting gear is alot harder in PVE and ... well really thats it.. that was the point.
Schadow Feb 18th 2008 3:47PM
Like it or not, welfare epics exist. I play on a US server from overseas so I have very high latency. Playing a melee DPS class, this means all my opponent has to do to avoid being hit by me is to walk away from me (I see where he was 1-1.5 seconds ago, not where he is now).
Consequently, I hate PvP. It's excruciatingly painful to be well-geared, play my class well, but be completely useless in the arena.
However, at the level of progression my guild was at, the best PvE weapons available to me were Arena weapons. You can debate the wisdom of Blizzard doing that all you want, in a different topic.
So I bought a 5v5 charter each week, lost 10 matches, and gained roughly 319 arena points each week until I could afford the S2 main hand and off hand weapons. At 40g per week for my share of a new 5v5 charter, it was cheaper than respeccing from raid spec to PvP spec each week.
That's welfare, in my opinion.
I'm a raider. I grind for the mats to keep myself prepared for raiding, and I raid. I do what it takes to be the best I can. In this case, it took swallowing some pride and queuing up for the mad free lewtz available on the welfare system. For 40g a week, you too can be teh epicxxz0r.
Yossarian Feb 18th 2008 5:59PM
So you're saying that you're mad at a system and disapprove of it because you participated within it in a way that it wasn't intended and abused it? That doesn't make any sense. That's just as bad as everybody here saying that PvP loot is welfare loot cause you can AFK and still get it.
Not every person who gets PvP gear is an AFKer. Please don't assume because you're willing to do that, everybody else is. Some of use play the game because we actually enjoy it, not because it makes us feel better about our e-peens with our mad purple lootz.
With WoW, if you're willing to gank the system and play the game outside of the way the developers intended it, it's easy to get purples. AFKing your way to purples in a BG is the same in my mind as buying gold and then buying your way into an instance run of a guild that has a certain instance on farm, or it's the same as just ebaying a whole toon.
Schadow Feb 18th 2008 9:52PM
Regarding Yossarian's post:
Let me be very clear: I paid my 40g along with 4 other people who did the same thing knowing full well that it was a group of raiders who refused to respec from their raid spec for PvP. We did not go in intending to lose, it was merely the inevitable outcome of such a group facing PvP-geared and -specced people.
The only abuse of mechanics that occurred is buying a new charter each week to reset the 1500 rating. If you equate that to being AFK in a BG, then I think you're flying off the handle a bit.
That is, in my opinion, completely different to AFKing in a BG, which I have never done and do not in any way condone. It's fine screw around when everyone is in on the joke. It is not fine to destroy the game content for other people who actually try to win. When I do BG PvP, I do everything I can to help my side win.
So please refrain lumping me in with AFKers, if you will. My point is that the *arena gear* is readily available to people who don't want to respec or regear for PvP. It is easy to amass the points, and requires no skill at all.
So it's welfare. If your guild is not raiding SSC or beyond, it's also the best weaponry in the game for you, and if you are concerned with your contribution to the raid, it is your obligation to attain the gear that makes you better. If you have any class, then you'll do it in a way that hurts no one.
Frogonius Feb 18th 2008 3:50PM
In my experience with pvp and raiding, i have to say that getting epics through pvp is much much easier. In reality, a guild could be stuck on one boss in ssc or tk for literally weeks. I heard of a guild on my server that was stuck on Kael for months before they finally downed him. Sure, after they got that 1st kill, Kael may have become much easier, BUT it still took them months to get the 1st kill. All you need to get pvp epics is time, that is it. For raiding you need: time, gold, motivation, coordination, a decent team to work with, and determination. Like people have said before, you can do arenas or bg's and not contribute one kill or one pt of healing to the group and still get honor/arena points. I would like to see people try to do this in a 25man raid. Not only would they not get any epics, they would get kicked the F out of the raid and possibly the guild.
@ post 2: Consider yourself very very lucky to leave kara with 2 epics your 1st run. I just want you to know, that unlike pvp, it is totally random whether or not you get drops in a raid. In pvp, no matter what, as long as you put the time in, you will get enough honor to get whatever piece you want. and if you put in a lot of time, you can get it fairly quickly. Sometimes in a raid, you can have the place on farm for weeks or even months, and still not ever see that piece you want drop. That is the difference. And i wont even go into DKP, because that just makes it even less likely that you'll get the drops you need. With pvp you are guaranteed epics, with raiding, you are not.
Ive been running bgs, for about 2weeks to get some offspec gear for my resto shammy. In those 2weeks, only spending about 2hrs a day or less in battle grounds, i've earned enough honor and marks to buy 2pieces of epic pvp gear.
I ran kara every week for 2months and never saw the lights justice drop off of the prince. I got it eventually, but it took forever because whether or not the prince drops that particular item is random. With pvp NO MATTER WHAT you are moving closer and closer to your goal of earning enough honor to get your epics. With raiding, its not so simple.
Bearskunk Feb 18th 2008 4:00PM
keep in mind: epics serve a purpose. in PvE they gear up the raid so you are able to down the next boss. In PvP it's to stay competitive with the other guy - and have upgrades so the damage output from raid gear doesn't let a raider slaughter his way through a BG the way it was pre expansion.
SaintStryfe Feb 18th 2008 7:50PM
Agreed. I did get lucky. (and I'm still wearing those great Leather Feral boots, they're great on my ENH shaman).
However, in the end, getting keyed and going into Kara was easy. I could do that twice a week much easier then I could grind out even one piece of my S1 gear.
ringu0 Feb 18th 2008 3:50PM
The only people that are concerned about something being "welfare" in a video game are ..., well, to avoid strong words, ..., sorry, looks like I fail this test.
Let's just say that their happiness comes not from owning a piece of loot, but from owning a piece and knowing that someone else won't get it.
Lysy Feb 18th 2008 3:52PM
The only welfare epics in this game are the epics that aren't worked for.
IE:
BG afk'ers/bots. Doesn't take much work to queue up and walk away from your computer.
Raid leechers. People that pay high end guilds to run them through raids for the chance at epics. Yes, this does happen..for a high price.
As for working for gold...LOL. Ever heard of gold farmers? Its ridiculous how easy it is to get gold..if you're willing to pay money for it. (Now don't get me wrong, I know most of us actually work for ours, but there are other ways to get it)
Bearskunk Feb 18th 2008 3:56PM
you need no "skill" to get any kind of epic equipment in this game
Subjectv Feb 18th 2008 4:33PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the only content you've seen so far is battlegrounds and the first two bosses of Kara.
Because if you had seen top tier arena, Vashj, Kael, Hyjal and Black Temple... you wouldn't be making such ignorant comments.
Scoottie Feb 18th 2008 3:55PM
WoW = World of Welfare
Zarzuur Feb 18th 2008 4:04PM
The problem is/was each PvE loot is only given to 1 player, but in PvP honor is awarded to every player.
Blizz seem to be addressing this by having badges/token drop off bosses for every player in raids, maybe they will go further in Wrath.
Brien Feb 18th 2008 4:27PM
You have to take the whole welfare epics thing with a grain of salt. The reason a lot of raiders are angry is because all of us non-cutting edge guilds trying to progress through content are constantly being frustrated by the easy no-skill-required-but-if-you-have-some-skill-you'll-get-yours-sooner -or-later epics that Blizzard is handing out.
I'm tired of inviting people to my raids who have respecced on me without telling me or having applications to my guild who get in as one spec we need and then 3 weeks later change to a spec we don't need so they can PvP.
Its a big challenge for the regular more "casual" raiding guilds to surmount the growing amount of epics that Blizzard is just handing out. Players want gear improvements, no question about it. Given the choice, they want both PvP and PvE gear. The problem is with the exclusivity of the two advacement paths combined with the relative ease of the PvP advacement path, PvE is losing more and more to PvP.
Gazoo Feb 18th 2008 4:44PM
PVP is useless. PVP skill means absolutely nothing. You can beat another player. Big Deal.
Beating lore figures, demi-gods, demons and all manner of nasties is what RPG games are all about. You want PVP? CoD4 is calling your name.
Go play an FPS shooter boi and leave the adventuring to people who really enjoy it.
Yossarian Feb 18th 2008 6:04PM
Thanks for telling me exactly how to play the game. I assumed (silly me) that I was playing to entertain myself and have fun. I appreciate you informing me that I should play the game as YOU see fit. I promise to work ever more diligently from here on out to live up to your lofty standards of How Warcraft Should Be Played.
Kalabus Feb 19th 2008 8:45AM
the problem with the comparison between so called welfair epics and raid epics is the use. in case anyone hasnt figured it out that pvp gear is mainly designed for pvp and pve gear is used for most part in raiding and pve. of course pvp gear is easily obtainable by doing lots of pvp, but thats its intent. sure you can get arena season one gear with honor, but originaly that gear was obtained as the start of the sentence says through arena, hello pvp. if you enjoy pvp then that gear to you is more valuable than any raid or pve epic but if game play content is your thing and you enjoy raiding then those epics are your rewards for completing something very few fortunate people get to experience. end game content.
DavidC Feb 18th 2008 4:49PM
The PvP Gear is 'welfare' because it's much much cheaper / easier to get and requires minimal participation or skill. Period.
You cause use S3 gear to clear T5 Content ... You can not use T5 Gear to beat S3 Teams. That *is* one of the problems.
PvP Gear is a literally a "time = guaranteed gear" scenario. This weekend, many people earned 30k worth honor for going into AV and baby sitting bunkers / towers while watching their favorite movies. Try watching a movie during a Vashj attempt and see how that works out.
Also, the whole "guild / alt" thing is myth for anything past Kara. Trying to get "new guildies" attuned for BT/MH is a pain in the butt on sooooooo many levels, that trying to do the same with Alts? OMG, you have no clue ...
S1 and Arena gear = welfare epics ... period.