What to do about perpetual losers?
by David Bowers 
Feb 23rd 2008 at 3:03PM
Many Alliance players have this impression that the Horde is constantly united, more cooperative, and generally understands how to play better than the Alliance does. Whether this is true or not is not something I myself can speak for, though I have heard my Horde friends say they have just as many clueless PvP people as the Alliance does. So perhaps both factions can relate to Mendax's complaint that so many people seem to go into the battlegrounds with no idea how to win, and somehow fail to learn how, even in spite of playing a great deal and getting a lot of good gear. Their tendency is just to go in and lose over and over again, repeating the same old proven-to-fail methods for various reasons: possibly because they don't know anything better, possibly because they don't care anymore, and possibly because they've already identified themselves, their faction, or everyone else in their faction as born losers.
In any case, Mendax thinks that Blizzard should make the battlegrounds themselves reward you for better play, so that the game mechanics themselves encourage you to play in such a way that you're more likely to actually win. First of all, they could provide more honor for kills near contested objectives (such as flags or towers), and secondly, they could deny all bonus honor if you lose. His first idea quite interesting -- I like the possibility that the reward system of the battlegrounds could somehow teach you to play better in itself, if that's really possible. However, while I can understand his reasoning in removing all bonus honor gain for losing teams, I think this would just make the "losers" stop queueing up altogether. We might be happy to get rid of whiners, complainers and all them, but in the end would the increase the waiting time in between battles be worth it? And in any case, would the "losers" really go away, or would they just look for ways to get around the system?
Filed under: Horde, Alliance, PvP, Battlegrounds
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Frelis Feb 23rd 2008 3:25PM
I don't think they should be punished for playing, they pay to play, but the Battlegrounds needs some kind of ranking system to weed out the more serious PVP players from the zombies who go in and just stand around. Even something simple that keeps the kiddies in one room and the grown ups in another queue. Something based on overall kills or amount of games played overall for your toon. Something, anything! There always seems to be people willing to play hard in BGs and do its objectives, but can never get anywhere because they are surround by people who either won't help or don't know how to help.
Mr.Mage Feb 23rd 2008 3:49PM
I am not a hardcore PVPer, but i think they should make an "advanced" mode for the people who are better at PVP that puts them in a diferent group than the non hardcore ones, and award more honor or something to make it worth wile.
Eternalpayn Feb 23rd 2008 10:03PM
Mr. Mage, that's called BG9.
GHN Feb 23rd 2008 3:37PM
All this complaining about "noobs", "losers", "zombies", "kiddies" or whatever is so irritating. Get friggin used to it sport because the real world isn't much different. The smart ones know that if they have a problem with something they either figure out how to use it to their advantage, work around it or just go away.
But I do agree that without incentives or rewards these battlegrounds really are not worth the time and effort to play.
Kaphik Feb 23rd 2008 3:48PM
GHN, the problem with your argument is that there is not a comparable reward for losing in the real world, as there is in WoW. If the gains for poor play were lessened, people would do one of two things. Either improve their play, or stop pvp. Both consequences would improve the quality of pvp, and the game overall.
However, sadly I do not think most people pvp for the fun of it, or for anything other than the "phat lewtz".
GHN Feb 23rd 2008 5:03PM
Ohh but here is Kaphik. Maybe you just haven't been around enough and seen what happens in most places of employment, especially where getting fired is a difficult process.
Verit Feb 24th 2008 3:40PM
So if people stopped playing that would imrprove queue wait times?
I think its safe to say we have that problem now. Why? Because (for whatever reason you throw at it) people have stopped playing.
If you had an advanced mode - the problem would still be the same simply because the number of moderate players greatly outweigh the number of decent players.
I've had the unique ability to play both sides of AV (and other bg's) - I'd honestly say the horde are better at following orders and healing. The main issue with AV I'd honestly say is map/boss balance.
jaxson_bateman Feb 23rd 2008 3:52PM
The honor idea for secondary objectives (such as, in AV, defending a gy/tower or getting a mine, things like that) is a good idea IMO. Atm, there's not much incentive to play defensively in a lot of BGs, and that would help provide it.
In my battlegroup (BG9 iirc), for the Horde, when in pug V pug BGs, we tend to be about 50-50 for lv 70 WSGs, ABs and EotS, but 90-10 AV. ^^
From my observations, the Alliance in the battlegroup generally don't understand the strategy behind how we play. We defend their initial zerg, making them respawn, at best, Stonehearth (a short trek away from Iceblood). If our offensive team has been good enough, then this spawn point is pushed WAY back to Stormpike.
It seems that what they need to start doing is capping Snowfall, and defending it and Stonehearth like all hell until they've both capped. From there, moving onto Iceblood and doing the same. Graveyards are a very underrated tool in AV, not only do you provide yourself with a possible, more convenient spawn point after 4 mins, but you also push the opponents possible spawn points further away from where you are. Countless times I've seen Iceblood Tower attacked before Iceblood Graveyard - it's not hard to defend a tower when the allies that are killed spawn back at Stonehearth (unless as I mentioned we've already taken it).
TDurden Feb 23rd 2008 5:22PM
We'll see how well Horde does after patch 2.4 when Blizzard attempts to balance the AV map further by moving the Horde start tunnel back. Perhaps Horde does work together better as a team, but that still doesn't account for them winning 90% of the current AVs. It's just not possible they're that much better as a whole.
Mats Feb 23rd 2008 3:52PM
I think that blizzard should look toward places like TF2 and QuakeWars, where the idea is that people will only behave selfish, and they have to make there game in such a way that being self oriented while playing will help out the overall battle. So perhaps there should be a reward in itself for healing, perhaps a reward for defense, reward CC, rewards for buffing. So that people would do what there class does best, and this will help out others, but they all doing for selfish reasons.
Tombless Feb 23rd 2008 4:13PM
Immature players are much more likely to choose one of the "good guy" pretty races (Humans, Elves etc) since they are the heroes in most fantasy stories. These players dont analyze strategy and review mistakes, they just blame the other guy. Honor motivations arent going to change this.
The population and pvp imbalances are not so much class or race but who chooses and plays them. The introduction of the Belfs has helped a little but there's not alot Blizzard can do to fix it more.
North Feb 23rd 2008 4:37PM
Agreed - TF2 does a great job of rewarding Medics and giving them a good chance of topping the leader-board. My brief times in BGs were disorganized - I got the feeling people didn't want to invest in a win at the expense of their own honor kills, so ignored objectives from the start. I suspect this is from experience, trying hard to get a win and being punished in the end for it. It's definitely a negative feedback set-up.
Fanryn Feb 23rd 2008 4:10PM
"In the shuffling madess
of the locomotive breath,
runs the all-time loser,
headlong to his death. . ."
GHN Feb 23rd 2008 5:28PM
"...And the all-time winner
has got him by the balls..."
dcga Feb 24th 2008 7:37AM
I haven't tried listening to Jethro while playing WOW. I MUST definitely start with an infinite loop of Thick as a brick.
painty Feb 23rd 2008 4:27PM
how dare these "losers" think they have a right to play? after all, it's not like they paid a monthly fee for it or anything...
Felwrathe Feb 23rd 2008 4:44PM
I could understand wanting to get rid of the loser's bonus, because it'd make those left fight all that much harder to win, but it would definitely kill queue times. As if it's not bad enough already.
The first idea I can definitely agree with, though. Extra points for kills near objectives in AV, loads of points for killing a flag runner or returning the flag in WSG [It's not like it happens all that often, so a nice chunk can't hurt], it'd be kinda hard to do in AB though, since pretty much all fighting happens right on top of the points.
Either way, I wish there were more people playing battlegrounds [but NO LESS people playing PvE, for the love of god], so that they could do cool things like split BGs between highly skilled players and the beginners [more honor kills = higher rank, I s'pose, but that would be hard to tweak for healers etc.] so that no one side has too much of an advantage.
Hell, if a ton more people were playing BGs, they could even tweak it so it prioritizes other players close to your level... that way a level 14 or so can have fun without fear of those horrific abominations called level 19 twinks.
Dean Feb 23rd 2008 5:12PM
It's a fascinating concept and I find it amazing to watch it play out. I've seen servers where AV goes from Alliance dominated to Horde dominated every time a patch comes out that changes it somewhat. Basically people really try for the first few weeks after a new patch when they think they have a chance. If they find they lose most of the matches they decide that this therefore means the map is biased against them and they stop trying. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If half the members in AV think there's no change of a victory, there is no chance.
draeth Feb 23rd 2008 5:17PM
Id love it if all the cry babies and noobs stopped Qing up for my bgs, I hit 70 to pvp with people who like to pvp and want to win. I dont care how long Id have to wait for bgs to pop if when I entered it was full of dedicated pvpers who want to wipe the floor with the horde and not just half ass their way to their next epic loot so they can increase their dps on the next Kara run.
Oh and for fuck sake, if your main is Alliance, roll a horde and vice versa and level them up to around like 39+ and run some battlegrounds. BOTH SIDES DO THE SAME SHIT. The alliance isnt full of children and the horde arent full of adults. I can play my horde 1 day and curse the name of every ally alive and then play my human the next day and bitch about the horde.
draeth Feb 23rd 2008 5:20PM
@10
w00t