Are raiders becoming obsolete?

At first glance, I didn't really think there was much out of the ordinary about a post made by one of Nihilum's resto Shaman, Neg. A number of raiding guilds have complained strenuously about the presence of easy-to-obtain epics in the game, but any post entitled, "Does Blizzard Hate Raiders?" is typically going to get a scoff and little else.
I had read the article shortly before zoning into Black Temple for the third time ever, and for the first time with the ingame sound on. My guild had recently killed both High Warlord Naj'entus and Supremus, and while the Karabor Sewers portion of the instance is interesting to look at, it pales in comparison to what you'll see once you're offered a teleport to a different floor by a member of the Ashtongue Deathsworn. My guildies and I were really just there to farm Hearts of Darkness for resist gear and to explore a little bit, with nothing really important on our minds. Nevertheless, what we saw that night was beautiful. The floor you're ported to has a tiny, friendly area with the Ashtongue Quartermaster, but beyond that lie a number of sinister things. The ceiling is pillared by giant statues much like those that guard the portal into Outland, and rogues lurk in pairs seemingly all around you. Not infrequently you find yourself turning around to shouts on vent to see them rapidly killing off members of the raid; we finally hit upon the strategy of sending our own rogues off to sniff out the presence of danger while the raid itself was ringed and guarded on all sides by the tanks. Once another set of rogues was found, our hunters set up Flares to flush them out of hiding, marked them, and pulled carefully. You were only really safe if you were in the middle portion of the raid; wandering off to go explore on your own was unthinkable.
The music is lovely, the atmosphere is stellar, and for the first time ever in a raid I felt the real sense of a dangerous place with violent, unpredictable creatures that didn't want us there. It was one of the few times that we've actually had to use real strategy as a raid outside of a boss fight. Black Temple makes it abundantly obvious that you are a small, embattled group struggling to survive against overwhelming odds. Most raids are pretty straightforward - learn the tricks to the trash, pull the trash, clear the trash, ask "What's the respawn timer?", and then kill the boss. Tempest Keep is a pretty cold and sterile environment; Serpentshrine Cavern is more interesting visually but the trash is, in many cases, just pull after pull after pull of the exact same stuff (weirdly enough, Karazhan and Zul'Aman seem to come a little closer to the Black Temple raid mentality than their Tier 5 brothers). But there is so much obvious care and attention lavished on the endgame raids, I said to myself (while taking tons of screenshots and turning the sound up), that I just don't buy the argument that Blizzard doesn't give a hoot about raiders.
But Neg isn't really writing about the conflict between raiders and the rest of us, which has been a pretty thoroughly discussed in one form or another. It's his contention that the raiding world - what I saw on Thursday and what Nihilum practically does professionally - is becoming obsolete in this, the Age of Purple.
Neg's real point of contention is that, in a world where powerful gear is getting easier and easier to get on your own steam, there is no real incentive to join raiding guilds, which no longer function as the gatekeepers to an array of fabulous epics. While I can't say I agree with the larger point that raiding guilds are becoming pointless, Neg makes a pretty passionate case that there's really not much a raiding guild can offer WoW players that, especially with the introduction of amazing badge gear from 2.4, they can't get on their own without the hassle, expense, and time commitment of raiding (although I think he might be discounting just a tad the hassle, expense, and time commitment of accummulating hundreds of heroic badges for said amazing gear).
He is right about what happened to many raiding guilds when The Burning Crusade launched; high-end raid content being pared from 40 to 25 members left many GM's in the unenviable position of having to bench close to half their roster on any given night, or else downsize the guild itself. Neither was a particularly attractive option for people who genuinely wanted to continue raiding with the people they'd raided with pre-BC. The amount of difficulty that many guilds have ramping up from 10-man to 25-man content is practically legendary at this point, and was even more so when Karazhan was a keying requirement for SSC. While I think most of us would conclude that the changes were ultimately for the better, it was a raw deal for existing raiding guilds at the time and resulted in a lot of instability while they struggled to adapt.
Beyond that, however, I can't really agree that the lure of experiencing the game's content isn't enough for most people, and I'm a little disconcerted at Neg's certainty that gear alone was driving the pre-BC raiding boom. Everybody likes the gear - I doubt anyone could argue otherwise, and raiders certainly look forward to their upgrades - but the lure of a piece that may or may not ever drop and may not go to you immediately even if it does......I just don't see it as being enough for the average raider, especially when great PvE gear is increasingly less and less likely to confer any real advantage in PvP these days. You have to want to be there for reasons that have nothing to do with gear, especially on those ugly nights where it seems like you're never going to do anything other than wipe endlessly to new content. There's also the simple attraction of playing with people you just like, if you're lucky enough to be raiding with a fairly chill bunch. Ingame, there's not much that compares to the feeling of finally downing a great, big, horrible, life-sucking, soul-destroying boss in the company of 24 peeps who will all go bonkers when it happens.
Ultimately I have a difficult time with the notion that giving a player more choice over how to advance their character is somehow not in the best interests of the player base as a whole. At the same time, there might be something to Neg's assertion that how Blizzard chooses to improve the game on an individual level is (unintentionally or not) negatively affecting the role that raiding guilds were meant to play in the social life of the game.
Is this a good thing? BC's advancements have forced the raiding guilds to relinquish the grip they had over what was really the only means of character progression in vanilla WoW, and it's undeniably been a blow to the station they used to occupy in the daily life of any server. It's pretty easy to know your place in the world when you're the only game in town. But the easier you make it for the individual player to level, gear, and advance on their own, or with cursory help from PuG's, the more you de-emphasize the social aspect of the MMORPG that is a defining trait of the genre. It's not too uncommon to see experienced MMORPG players comment on the degree to which World of Warcraft is a much more solo-friendly game than its predecessors, and it's hard to argue that it's not getting more so.
So, after a fashion, I find I do agree with Neg that raiding guilds no longer offer what made them unique (exclusive access to excellent gear), but I disagree that that was all they had to offer in the first place. A raiding guild is obsolete if that's how it sells itself now, because people may very well conclude that they're not the fast track to good gear and raiding is more trouble than it's worth. A number of people quit raiding in no small part because guilds can be organized rat races for 25-man drops. If you don't take care of your people, there's a lot of favoritism, little support is given to people playing key roles, or raiding is a largely cheerless affair - raiding guilds will bleed players, and no wonder. People do have the option of getting good gear elsewhere now, and guilds have to compete with an individual player's own sense of initiative. Neg's observation that some guilds are disbanding in the wake of easily obtainable badge and arena pieces doesn't surprise me under the circumstances, and all I need to do is glance at Guildwatch or Officers' Quarters to see that, sometimes, people just get sick of how things are. Instead of complaining that their position is being usurped by arena vendors, guilds are better off cultivating reasons to raid that have nothing to do with gear.
Everyone should play the game on their own terms, and my main was a direct beneficiary of the excellent badge gear that became available in patch 2.3. It gave me the opportunity both to save DKP and pass on raid drops that a lot of people needed. It's foolish not to recognize that raiders themselves are dependent on (and should take advantage of) the improvements being made that now allow people to advance without relying on the goodwill, training, time, and outright skill of 24 others.
But did I spend a lot of my time in Black Temple wishing more people would get the chance to see it? Yep. But after all, this is the Age of Purple. Inside - and to the regret of some, outside - of a guild, anything's possible.
**Edited March 8th, 2008 per Neg's request to remove a reference to a former member of Nihilum that was based on inaccurate information**
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, The Burning Crusade






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
George M. Feb 26th 2008 7:09PM
Raiders gain Epics at a much faster rate (sometimes x2) per raid. While "casuals" have to farm heroics, KZ and daily quest for Badges at a rate of 1 epic every 4 weeks.
So this is all really much too QQ from Raiders. Be happy you're in BT now, most other people are just going to skip it when WoTLK is available.
Perderedeus Feb 26th 2008 7:11PM
It all comes down to time. Time raiders spend in BT, seeing the latest and greatest content, playing with their mates, beating the toughest bosses... or time a casual spends grinding away at the same old content again and again. They're both working their butts off to get badges, or whatever reward Blizzard throws their way. I dare say the raiders are making out better in 2.4... not only do they get the freshest content, they get a load of badges from it too. Casuals will still be plugging away at the same old heroics (save for MT) and Kara for their badges.
Allison Robert Feb 27th 2008 12:38AM
That's the part I wish Neg had recognized; the badge and arena pieces are not freebies. And with the cost of badge gear set to skyrocket in 2.4, people are going to spend awfully long time grinding for this (admittedly exceptional) gear.
George M. Feb 26th 2008 7:11PM
Another thing, with amazing badge gear, raiding will be even more exclusive and Raiding Guilds can be more selective of whom they bring along.
We can just tell "casuals" to farm badges, raid spots are for raiders.
Zarzuur Feb 26th 2008 7:17PM
Sunwell is the end of TBC, so it is like they are going out with a bang, handing out the stuff as presents.
However, I wouldn't be surprised to see few such purples when Wrath begins, they may use a few of the new ways to buy loot, but overall I expect they will "reset" the difficulty back again.
Bearskunk Feb 26th 2008 7:20PM
epixxx > fun. remember folks, you heard it here first!
Salty Feb 26th 2008 7:24PM
No, not by a long shot. I do SSC/TK frequently and we're working towards the next tier. Having many alts of my own and trying to gear them up through Kara, it's very blatantly obvious to me that it's very difficult to bring an alt up to speed with the mains in your guild. I don't see that badge loot and pvp gear really poses a threat to raiding. There's absolutely no doubt that for PvE interests, high-tier raiding provides the best loot with high density. And if you're a valued player - which you should always be working towards, you will get some of that gear.
But it will never be obsolete. I'm sure there's some guild out there right now who has farmed every boss in Sunwell on the PTR to boredom and is just waiting to figure out the Muru/KJ fight. When 2.4 comes out they'll have roughly 48 hours until they're done with the game content and will be twiddling their thumbs till WotlK comes out.
Just because it's obsolete for those guys doesn't mean the rest of the population is losing out. There's 4 tiers of raiding to ascend through before WotlK comes out and most people are stuck in the first two in TBC. Badge Loot is roughly on par with T5 right now, and it's helping guilds accelerate through the content faster by gearing people up outside of the raids.
With attrition at the top tiers, people get very hard to replace, and I don't see any problem allowing folks to show their effort by earning badge gear and giving them an accessible gear base to allow them to catch up.
Tereth Feb 26th 2008 7:59PM
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I don't see badge loot and the like as detrimental to raiding, but only helpful. With the badge loot helping people progress faster, it allows more of the population to see more of the content. This is really quite a good thing, as very few people have actually seen most of the raid bosses in the harder 25-mans. This opens up more content to more people, and in the end the only people it could hurt are the superhardcore Nihilum guilds and the like. I'm sorry for you guys, but other people want to see what you guys see on a weekly basis too.
Jack Feb 27th 2008 3:24AM
I agree also, and this outweighs any complaints about the direction Blizzard's taking with epics acqusition. However, it is kind of saddening, no matter how reasonable it might be, to see people getting better gear than you got in SSC and TK by solely doing heroics and Karazhan.
For me, the sense of achievement I get from raiding is both from seeing and conquering content, and having the purples to prove it. While I'll always have the first, to decrease the second is to decrease my overall happiness about raiding. Oh well. I think I can get over it.
amasen Feb 26th 2008 7:24PM
Raiders get to see amazing content. They get to experience the only worthwhile story in this game.
I dunno what they're complaining about, they still get the best gear in the game for... raiding... by... raiding...
Healers and tanks can't effectively do their Jobs in raids if they have PvP gear... Even DPSers are somewhat gimped if they use PvP gear (depending on what they are currently raiding).
Raiders need to quit their whining. Everybody in this game needs progression. Plain and simple. If there wasn't progression for every type of player, then said players would quit.
That being said... There needs to be a clear and defined look for PvP gear, and PvE gear... Not this lazy re-coloring shit that blizzard keeps doing.
Index Feb 26th 2008 7:26PM
Raiding has become really less attractive, imo. Basically it's not what it used to be, before ever knowing details on BC, old school WoW players thought "ooo I'm 60 time to get the best gear possible so i can beat the baddies!" always knowing that'd have to keep upgrading that gear slightly as the game progressed, never thinking that there once lvl 60
purples were going to turn out to be the crap of the pot come BC since 10 more levels were going to be added to the
ame. And here we see that again with Wrath not to far away from now. Everything just has a little less worth because you know what you've played for so long is going to be crap again, and you'll have to start over. This doesn't appeal to me and i'm sure I wouldn't be alone on that thought. They are totally shifting this game in prep for Wrath, just
like they gave away High warlord gear not long before BC came out. Here it happens again, Things just really come and
go very quick in this game.
P.S. I know many RPGs are based on the idea of always upgrading your character (through whatever, gear, pros, etc.), but never as huge a step as 10 new levels to the game so often. And that gap to me is just too great.
Slayblaze Feb 26th 2008 9:22PM
You know, you're right. I couldn't quite put my finger on it before but that IS the difference in how meaningful raiding used to be in vanilla WoW compared to how it is now.
Back before BC it was extremely rewarding at level 60 to get that next piece of your Tier 1-2-3 set, because not only was it difficult and time-consuming to obtain with 40-man raids, but you knew it was the best the endgame had to offer. Little did we realize at the time that all that effort -and the fun we had along the way- would be rendered worthless by level 61+ greens or blue quest rewards in BC. Now...the gear doesn't have the same meaning as it did back then because we all understand the feeling of replacing that hard-earned and well-deserved gear with the new 71+ greens in WotLK.
That "exclusive access to excellent gear" WAS the main driving factor back then and now that its gone, its just another bit of the overall game that is missing now. It makes raid victories ring a little hollow now.
Alch Feb 26th 2008 7:28PM
I just want to see stuff. I really do not care much about having the greatest gear. It is fun when your group works out a boss and beat him. I still am the most proud of my guild the time we moved Prince 3 times in a fight due to bad infernal drops and still downed him with under geared healers.
The issue is just to see stuff I need an X level of gear. I really do not care about seeing SSC. I just do not have a choice but to run that place a bunch just to be able to see MtH or BT. At least now I have a chance to advance at a bit of faster rate.
I play this game for my own enjoyment. I do not care if people think my title or gear is cool looking. I think the biggest issue is people who base their self worth on their gear hate to see other get the same gear as them.
Samala Feb 27th 2008 11:29AM
Well said.
Playing the game is the fun part. Getting gear is just part of the process. Gear isn't the reward, experiencing the game is the reward.
matt Feb 26th 2008 7:28PM
Simple: giving people more options of how to play WoW means it's harder to get a large group of like-minded people together.
There's nothing surprising about that. If Blizzard adds more ways to play WoW, the problem will get worse (with the tradeoff that there would be even more ways to play WoW).
Solutions? Fewer realms+higher caps; cross-realm grouping; better tools for organizing raids.... There are probably lots of better solutions I haven't thought of. The "solution" of removing playstyles that people find fun isn't a very good one.
mark Feb 27th 2008 12:39PM
The problem is that Blizzard's netcode is pretty terrible.
I am on Arygos, one of the servers with free character transfer right now. Its always full, and the server cannot handle it.
You see all sorts of bizarre stuff, like logging into UNDER the world, your HP goes to 10% while smithing in Shatt, monsters from across the zone come over and attack you.
Not to mention the lack of mining nodes, one week of mining just for one craft, no thanks.
I agree that larger server populations would be great for the raiding community, Blizzard cannot handle it.
Nuronv Feb 26th 2008 7:31PM
Ah bless all the paranoid people, Raiders aren't dying.
Its just blizzard compacting the time it takes to go through all their instances to avoid a repeat of Naxx.
As they tend to stack all their content you would usually have to rerun the instances over and over until you have the gear level to progress to the next one. Now you run the instance less before you are geared for the next one so that you can see everything before its too late. If this wasn't the case they wouldn't have added BoJs to raid bosses.
I would personally like it if they had a unique set of reward for those that don't like raiding, even if its a recolour like the Arena stuff.
I leave you with this thought, if raiding is dying why do they spend so much time making new content for it, what has PvP seen in TBC? One new Battleground with bases cut and paste from other areas.
Steve Feb 26th 2008 7:34PM
My opinion - the players who join guilds like Nihilum do it in large part to be the first to get into the new content. Part of that is, inevitably, being the first to stroll around Shattrath in neat purple glowing epics.
From that perspective, I can see how Nihilum members might see the current trend as negative. It goes in the face of everything that THEY play the game for.
However, I still know a lot of people who get a thrill out of seeing Moroes for the first time. I know plenty of people who would jump at the chance to be in a Gruul run, even if they know in advance it will be a wipefest, just to see what it looks like inside.
While these players are slowly dwindling in number, I think there are still enough of them to keep raiding as a core activity of the game.
cchhiipp Feb 26th 2008 7:34PM
I don't buy that epics are the only reason to go raiding, as the guy is implying. I also don't accept the argument that it's obsolete to raid TK/SSC, though if all you want is epics and you're on BT, I guess T5 is obsolete for you.
I raid with a guild that has downed Vashj and is really close to getting Kael down as well. We are enjoying the hell out of these last few weeks and the accomplishment that comes with 25 people working together to do what we haven't done before.
None of that changes when 2.4 hits.
Zhalseran Feb 26th 2008 7:34PM
hardcore raiders QQing /sigh
I don't see why they begrudge people gear, I would much rather see the content than repeat the same instances over and over and get piece of semi-equivalent gear