Encrypted Text: Raiding as a Rogue, Part I

Every Wednesday, Elizabeth Wachowski or Chris Jahosky write Encrypted Text, a look into the shadowy world of rogues.
This week on Encrypted Text is the first part in a small mini-series of articles that should serve as a guide for any up and coming rogues looking to start raiding. I will cover a few of the more raid-friendly specs, talk about their strengths and weaknesses, the hit and expertise caps, and the type of gear you should be looking for.
Combat vs. Assassination and Subtlety
I'll be the first to admit that many Combat heavy builds, especially Combat daggers (which I was for a long time while raiding), are not inherently fun to play.
However, since the inception of the Burning Crusade expansion and its long list of changes to the talent trees, Combat sword/mace/fist builds have gotten far more complex. With enough +hit gear, a Combat Rogue can generate enough energy to keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up at all times during a fight (though Rupture is not generally used on trash). A well geared Rogue may also have enough time to throw in an additional Eviscerate and still have enough combo points to keep SnD and Rupture running. The amount of damage a Rogue like this can cause is astronomical -- highly geared rogues have broken 3,000 DPS in certain fights. There are 10 man raids that don't have 3,000 DPS combined. Of course, these rogues are the exception rather than the rule, but it is possible for anyone to get to that level, provided they have the skill and the gear.
Before the Burning Crusade, it was extremely difficult to obtain enough +hit gear to reach the Hit Cap (these days it's still difficult, but possible). The Hit Cap, by the way, is a term to describe how much +hit you need to have before all your attacks will never miss (though they still can be dodged or parried, but more on that later). The Hit Cap is normally calculated for the most difficult mob to hit. In the current game, this means a level 73 (boss) mob. The base chance to miss a level 73 while dual wielding is 28% for your "white" damage (normal swings), and 9% for your "yellow" damage (special attacks). In simple terms: once you have 9% hit, your special attacks will never miss, and once you have 28% hit, you'll never miss your normal swings. We'll get more into the Hit Cap later, but one of the reasons Combat performs so well in raids is based on a talent called Combat Potency, which gives your off-hand a 20% chance to give you 15 energy when it hits. As you get closer to the hit cap this talent gets better and better, and with a fast off-hand weapon you can get to the point where you'll have more energy than you know what to do with.
Aside from Combat Potency, there are many other talents that will increase your damage output directly, many of which synergize well with a high hit rating. By never missing an attack, you maximize your chance for Sword Spec to proc. Precision increases your chance to hit (more on that later), Dual Wield spec increases your off-hand damage, etc...
The Assassination tree is often utilized as a secondary tree when using a heavy Combat build. It has talents that enhance energy regeneration and increase combo point generation, as well as passive and direct increases to damage output. Some builds, like Combat Mutilate, spec deeply into this tree and can be competitive in smaller raids assuming the targets can be poisoned. However, it is much more difficult to reach the Hit Cap with this build, and reaching the Hit Cap does not increase energy regen, as it does in Combat. All that increasing your hit with Assassination and Subtlety specs will do is increase your white damage -- this is still important, but the effect is not as dramatic as it would be with Combat Potency.
The Subtlety tree has undergone perhaps the most amount of changes over the years. For a long time it was the "utility" tree for rogues. These days the utility is still there, but is now even stronger; additionally, the tree has become even more popular for PvP due to talents like Shadowstep and Hemorrhage. The tree is generally of limited use for raids as it lacks the sustained damage of Combat, and the energy/CP generation of Assassination. However, in larger raids, the debuff from Hemo can increase the raid's overall DPS. With enough melee DPS in the raid, this can make up for the loss of the rogue's personal DPS. In smaller raids, hybrid builds that mix Subtlety and Combat can do enough damage to be competitive on trash fights, but will most likely fall behind during Boss encounters.
I will go over some more raid-friendly specs that include Subtlety talents, but if you are interested in doing the most amount of damage (and thus, being the most useful to your raid), a heavy Combat build is really your only option. Remember, every other DPS class brings more to a raid than just DPS:
- Mage - water/food/Crowd Control
- Warlock - health stones/soul stone
- Warrior - group buff/Off Tank
- Shaman - group buff/Off Healer/wipe prevention
- Hunter - group buff/CC/Misdirection
- Shadow Priest - mana battery/OH
- Druid - OT/OH/battle rez
- Retribution Paladin - group buffs/OH/wipe prevention
The Hit Cap
Hit Rating, as a stat, is misleading -- it actually decreases your chance to Miss. As mentioned earlier, the Hit Cap currently is 28% / 9% against level 73 targets (raid bosses). What this really means is that your base chance to miss is 28% (while dual wielding) with regular swings, and 9% to miss with your special attacks.
In terms of Hit Rating (what you see when you look at your Character's stats), you'd need 442 / 142 Hit Rating (for regular swings / special attacks, respectively) to reduce your chance to miss to 0%. With Precision (from the Combat tree), this number drops to 363 / 64. Keep in mind that this is not a number you must achieve -- even the rogues of Nihilum, arguably the best geared rogues in the game today, don't achieve this number (though they come quite close, generally between 300-320 hit rating). Aside from just lowering the number of attacks you miss, hit rating can actually lead to an increase in critical strikes on regular swings -- this can be a difficult concept to understand. Think of it this way: Your crit chance encompasses all of your swings, not just the ones that land. The reason behind this is that there is only one "roll" made by the game engine when your character swings. Let's imagine that the computer rolls a 100-sided die to determine what your attack will be. If you have 0 hit rating and a 50% crit chance, the "attack table" (arrangement of all possible outcomes of your swing) on a level 73 might look like this:
- 1-28: Miss (28%)
- 29-36: Dodge (~7%*)
- 37-62: Glancing Blow (25%)
- 63-100: Critical Strike (40%)
- 0: Hit (0%)
This is the priority that WoW uses to determine what the outcome of an attack is. Because a critical strike has a lower priority than miss, dodge, or a glancing blow (and that all possible outcomes must combine to equal a 100% chance -- after all, something must happen when you swing), we can see that our crit chance has been lowered to 40%! Now let's see what happens if we add 10% hit chance, and lower our crit chance by 5%.
- 1-18: Miss (18%)
- 19-26: Dodge (6.5%)
- 27-51: Glancing Blow (25%)
- 52-97: Critical Strike (45%)
- 98-100: Hit (5.5%)
In the next installment, I'm going to talk about the Expertise cap, positioning, and the different specs you should be considering. Read it here ===>
Filed under: Rogue, Raiding, Guides, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Ciacco Feb 27th 2008 10:51PM
I know it's debatable, but I just like to point out that rogues do offer a couple other things to the game than dps - less of this in the raid situations - but I would note that we do offer better spell interrupt tools (kick, gouge, kidney shot) and lock down control (kidney shot, cheap shot) than others, along with some cc (sap). Individually they may not be as good as others, but when we are running with a pally tank, me using Expose Armor, effectively turning off the mobs attack for a period of time with stuns, and providing dps that still tops the charts - I feel a bit more useful than 'just dps'. Again, just a note, I've heard all of the reasons why there are better of each of the above for situations. I'll just keep raiding mashing 1 key, always have been a happy combat rogue :).
Kraynor Feb 28th 2008 12:31AM
My own rogue just dinged 69 and is starting the final grind towards 70, and this article couldn't have come at a better time :D
Having paid 0 attention to PVP, raids, or even 5-man instances my equipment is pretty terrible, so majorly looking forward to next week's article ;)
Combat swords for life! (just... not yours... cause ya know... you're dead)
Roland Feb 28th 2008 1:09AM
So, how does the 2.4 change in which Improved Backstab grants Mutilate an additional 15% crit chance affect the spec's viability? It seems like having a spam move that crits half the time, generating 2-3 combo points (via Seal Fate), for 60 energy seems pretty decent sustained dps. Hopefully something you'll address next week!
Schadow Feb 28th 2008 1:14AM
An interesting article, but i think there's an area you left a bit unexplored.
I am running a hybrid 11/27/23 sword spec that gives me what I feel is the best of all worlds. While my personal DPS is probably about 50 lower than if I specced straight combat swords, my raid damage including an estimate for the hemo debuff, is actually about 30 dps higher than if I ran straight combat swords with the same gear.
At least that's what the RogueDPS spreadsheet says, and it's proven to be pretty accurate.
Any raid leader worth running with can recognize the contribution to raid DPS made by the hemo debuff. If yours can't, then he's in need of either education or replacement.
And for the benefit of doing an an extra 30 dps, I get 5/5 Master of Deception, 5/5 Camouflage, and 2/2 Dirty Tricks along with the old fave Blade Flurry. Moving one point (probably from Expertise or Dirty Deeds, I could have Preparation to increase PvP effectiveness.
The build gets a lot of CP in a hurry from Initiative, so I can often stun-lock (CS, Hemo, Hemo, 5-pt. KS) a person or farming target, killing them before they lay a finger on me. Not useful in a raid, but it's lovely for having a bit of fun without changing spec.
This is the most versatile spec I have played. Love it.
Krick Feb 28th 2008 1:36PM
Can you post a link to your 11/27/23 build using the wowhead build tool?...
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f
Schadow Feb 28th 2008 11:08PM
Here's the link:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboZ0eVb0VzxzZxMe0MhMo
And here's me, in case you want to import into the RogueDPS spreadsheet and see how the maths on it work. Compare to cookie-cutter Combat Swords and remember to include the estimate for Hemo debuff:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Schadow
Kharvek Feb 28th 2008 2:08AM
Combat swords is a tad better than combat daggers, but I don't think it's a wide enough margin to really say "All raiding rogues should do this". You can do very, very, very solid DPS as combat daggers. I'm usually neck and neck with our sword rogue, and she's very skilled.
I also once subscribed to the 'hit is the holy temple of rogue stats' philosophy. Hit is an awesome stat, but if you gimp other things for it, you're really gonna hurt yourself. I made huge DPS gains by getting stuff with more AP/Crit and even armor penetration and gave up significant hit. In terms of gemming though, hit will always win out over crit.
Combat daggers has some more burst power, and does plenty of damage in their own right. It also kept a nice spread of gear going. There wasn't 6 people in line for Talon of Azshara. I as in line for different weapons, so it made the distribution of gear a little less stressful for the raid.
The *HUGE* question I'd love to see answered is how the 2.4 changes affect mutilate with raiding. There's two big ones there. The talent change, and the change that elemental mobs are now poisonable, and other kinds of mobs are now bleedable. These are both pretty large changes to mutilate style, and as said elsewhere here, mutilate is *way* more fun to play. Also, if it is raid viable, how does gearing for mutilate work? I think crit starts to become a bit more important with a build like that, and hit becomes a bit less important. I'm not a master maththeorycrafter, but...I'd be curious to know.
kidsmoke Feb 28th 2008 3:57AM
I run a 0/20/41 build with 2200 atk pwr unbuffed and only 23% crit with 200 hit, and I find myself in the top 3 every 25 man.
It is an energy starved spec, but my white dmg is through the roof.
One thing though you have to be paired with a feral druid.
And every boss encounter I go from 5th to first after the boss hit's 35%.
Works very well in PVP as well.
I often think what if I respec'd back to combat if I would do more dps, but as it stands now I'm the highest rogue dps in my guild. Oh and if though I'm energy starved I can still keep SnD and Rupture up at 'all' times.
Just wait till you start seeing 400-500 rupture ticks after 35%.
Ikarus Feb 28th 2008 6:21PM
I'd be interested in seeing a link to your build if you are willing. I love sub. it's been my focus since lvl 10. I think my spec could use some change, but im not willing to give up the sub tree as my main. Thanks!
YPEELS40 Feb 28th 2008 8:48AM
Ill be honest, i did not read every comment but I find daggers tends to pull way ahead in *most* boss fights, and swords tend to pull ahead on trash.
YPEELS40 Feb 28th 2008 8:57AM
Also how do haste and armor penetration come into play?
Quickshiv Feb 28th 2008 12:40PM
I think this discussion has been covered extensively almost everywhere so I'm going to ask everyone to look into the future and answer this question.
IF (big if here) the envenom rumors go through AND IF more bosses become poisonable do you think Mutilate/Combat 41/20/0 will become viable for raiding? This spec would allow you to keep SnD and Rupture up 100% and still let you get in an ENV quite often.
On a side note Blizz really needs to look at giving bosses poison resist instead of immunity. I think poison immunity is one of the greatest hindrances to dagger rogues.
Ariashley Feb 28th 2008 6:12PM
There is really 1 viable hybrid hemo build that can be used effectively in melee heavy 25-man raids. All viable raiding builds require at least 11 points in assassination talents. No way could a combat + sub build work out in a raid. 11/27/23 is approximately 2.5% less personal damage than 20/41/0 with swords and 1.5% more overall raid damage than 20/41/0. However, it's situational (since the higher damage also requires that the mob be rupturable).
Your article fails to mention that expertise is actually better than hit rating, since it impacts special and white attacks after you get special attacks hit capped (at 63 hit rating with precision).
In any case, no new level 70 rogues should be running around trying to get hit capped. In blues, a rogue hit capped at 363 (343 with food buffs) will have so little AP and crit as to be completely useless. Good stats for new 70 rogues to shoot for would be 1400 AP, 175 hit rating and 20% crit and then trying to move those stats up together.
Golijov Feb 29th 2008 1:41AM
The attack roll information you gave is somewhat false in regards to critical strikes. Like a glancing blow, a critical strike can not miss.
What happens with each swing is as follows, for a sample of 20% hit (with precision), 30% crit:
8% miss, 30% crit, 25% glance, 5.6% dodge, the rest is filled up by normal hits. This is of course assuming you don't fail miserably and attack from the front.
As such, the expertise cap is 23 expertise, or 91 rating for non-humans without wepex. 4.94 rating = 1 expertise.
Because of how this attack roll system works, for white damage with no sword or mace spec, 1% crit > 1% hit. However, once you consider the stat rating system (15.77 for 1% hit versus ~22 for 1% crit), and considering that for any rogue spec white damage is more than 50% of total damage (for combat swords, depending out amounts of passive haste or t6 2pc, this ranges anywhere from around 55% to +70% of a rogue's total damage output), hit becomes a more valuable stat to stack, especially when considering gemming.
Currently, for rogues where their crit divided by two is > their chance to miss, haste gives the most benefit per rating point.
Golijov Feb 29th 2008 1:45AM
An edit to my comment: expertise is actually more beneficial than haste per rating point (and I am in general referring to optimal levels of gear, and making the general assumptions that need to be made to compare stats and specs), but with the cap so easily reachable by most rogues once sunwell comes out, it slipped my mind to mention it. A human sword-specced rogue will be only 2 expertise shy of the cap wearing just the new tier 6 boots. Based on current or future itemization, reaching that cap would require use of un-ideal gear.
Golijov Feb 29th 2008 1:49AM
Oh, and one last thought. Currently, the spec that will put out the most dps (I am not talking about anecdotal evidence or anything else that doesn't belong in a theorycrafting discussion) is 19/42/0 combat swords. If you would like to see exact talent placement, here is a link to the build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eboeZGcV0bVzxMGRt
I personally choose the extended gouge length over the extra dodge, but as those are filler points its just personal preference.
Slip Mar 24th 2008 7:19AM
Something that has always bothered me about the combat/ not-combat build for raiding (note this is pointed at 10 man content and not 25 where hemo can *begin* to make up personal dps difference).
Is that it's an incredibly selfish agruement that often centers around this one tenet. It's more fun to play with daggers.
Why any one would say that they could take a hit on there dps while were a dps class boggles my mind. In any group situation where you bring less then your best to the table your already ham stringing the group.
Peace.