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3-05-2008 @ 3:38PM
"This was one of my problems with Enhancement as a Shaman -- there was only one melee strike. But it was complemented with a plethora of shocks, totems, and the beautiful proc of a Windfury. I don't think I ever appreciated that more than when I leveled my Paladin."Shock = JudgementTotem = aura and blessingWF proc = seal proc for SoC.1 melee strike deep in the tree...Exactly how is this so very different?I have a tankadin, I see most of the same stuff and I find it about as boring when grinding mobs. Seal, judge, seal, shield, wait for a while, judge, seal, shield. (HS and CS have same cooldown...) Meanwhile my shaman is flameshock, ss, wait, es, ss, fs, es, ss. It's almost the same darn thing...I don't know how either is less boring than the other.
3-05-2008 @ 4:05PM
3-05-2008 @ 4:40PM
You neglect to mention Lightning spells. Nor the fact that Shocks have a 20 yard range while Judgement has 10. Or that you can put down 4 different totems while only have one Blessing on. Auras are more akin to the elemental Shields. The feel is just very different. You can keep casting spells alternating between Lightnings and Shocks but as a Paladin you can only really cast Judgement.
3-05-2008 @ 5:20PM
Also not to mention that Shocks are on a shorter cooldown untalented and don't require you to rebuff immediately afterwards.Additionally, Paladins can't have four blessings/auras going at once, and certainly don't have over 20+ options to choose from in that regard.
3-06-2008 @ 5:42AM
The single greatest error I see in that comparision (and I'm sure there's more then one) is comparing Windfury to SoC. Windfury is on a hidden 3 sec CD yeilding 20 Windfury procs per minute if you have 25% crit, SoC averages at 7 proc's per minute. Quite a huge difference really.
3-06-2008 @ 8:43AM
Did any of you read for content?WOW.He said as a melee class with 1 strike Ret Paladins are even more boring than Enhance Shaman.Jordrah: Nothing about dual-wield changes the overall lack of much to do when waiting on the cycle, and the cycle is almost the same as a Ret Paladins. Ret uses big 2-handers better, so it's a wash.Zach: I also didn't mention Whirlwind, Lifetap, or Iceblock. What do those things have to do with Enhancement or Ret Paladins? About as much as lightning spells. An Enhancement Shaman in melee is not throwing any lightning out. That's a stupid thing to bring up and had nothing to do with what he was talking about. Ret is glorified auto-attack. Well, Enhancement isn't much better yet somehow the perception was different. 4 totems? Please. 2-3 are the maximum you get out of a fight unless you like breaking sheep (that searing totem is always aiming right at the guy with a moon on him right before he gets sheeped, I swear) or having useless totems that suck up GCDs.Water totem: meh, useful, not needed. Healing sucks for enhance. Fire: See above. Earth: Blessing of might. Air: Grace of air. So I got 2 totems that matter. Not that much different than an aura and blessing. Water shield might give me 1 more thing to do during a fight. Wow, vastly different.The truth is in melee, Enhancement isn't that different. I've got both, I played with Ret a little and thought "If I wanted an Enhancement Shaman, I would have rolled another, going to tank now. Heck, tanking isn't even that different as Holy Shield takes Crusader Strikes place, and you only have to taunt mobs, and consecrate that are added to the mix.Darian: What about the cooldown matters? I have a cooldown that makes my rotation shorter, so I might push 2 buttons more in 15 seconds? Paladins in raids cast more than blessings and I never see 4 totems as buffs, ever. It's just dumb to try. I buff people with 2-3 and while they are helpful, they are rarely ever all being used by people. I put down WF for melee, I don't see it so I am losing, mana isn't helping rogues, and fire does nothing except shoot things. Gadai: Nice math that is incorrect to say the least.3 second coldown means there is a MAXIMUM of 20PPM. This is not affected by haste or extra attacks (SoC is), it is a 20% chance regardless. So now you have a buff that when off cooldown has a 72% chance to proc if your weapons are synched. That is not a definite proc the first swing off CD, so it is less than 20PPM. Additionally, how many swing timers are exactly at 1.5 seconds to get the maximum number of proc chances? Well, if you have bloodlust up (10 min CD) and flurry, your swing timer with a 2.6 weapon is 1.6. You still will never see 20PPM. Crit has nothing to do with it, by the way. The point of the post was lost on some people, let me explain. He acted as if an Enhance Shaman was somehow inherently less boring in melee than a Ret Paladin. I was pointing out that the two classes are so similar that if you change words you have almost the exact same pattern in melee. These 2 classes are boring as heck in melee. We get 1 swing, some buffs to our weapons to do more damage, a spell occasionally to do more damage, and that's about it. We do not get a huge amount of melee options (rogues, cats or warriors) not any special mechanics to make the class operate differently than spellcasters or hunters.
3-07-2008 @ 1:24AM
I think we're looking at it from two different points of view. PvE and PvP. Lightning spells play an entirely different role in PvP. If you're rooted and counter-kited as an Enhancement Shaman, you will still be able to dish out some form of damage with Lightning spells and Shocks. Paladins have 0 ranged abilities. A 10 yard Judgement doesn't count.Poison Cleansing Totem is the single most important totem against Rogues and Hunters. So many Shamans neglect that. Not very many Shamans understand that it's one of the most important PvP totems to throw down. Too many Shamans in PvP drop down a mind-boggling Healing Stream or Mana Spring when engaged. I can never figure that out.You have Tremor or Earthbind to choose from in the Earth totem list. You MUST always drop Grounding Totem down every single time its cooldown is up. That makes at least three usable totems. It's even easier in PvE, where totem use is non-reactive.Lightning Shield to open the fight, Water Shield when you're running low and the Lightning Shield has been expended. Furthermore, as to Windfury versus Seal of Command... 20PPM is still 13 more than 7PPM. My point when I wrote the article (yes, I'm the same Zach), was that Paladins were designed to be a PURELY melee class. Shamans WERE NOT. And yet, as a PURELY melee class, the only melee strike we have is a 41-point talent. That's ironic. You're correct that Enhancement and Retribution are fairly similar... but the fact remains that Shamans have ranged strike options. In fact, a variety of offensive spells. Paladins have JUDGEMENT. That's ONE spell, and it requires PREPARATION (a Seal). As opposed to Shocks, Lightning, or a fire-based totem. Everything else a Paladin needs to dish out damage is a talent -- Holy Shock or Crusader Strike. So essentially, we're back to auto-attacks.And if you read carefully, I said I had fun. I didn't say it was boring. I said it was ironic.
3-07-2008 @ 11:47AM
Zach, I love ya. But this is what my original problem was:You describe paladin melee as somehow less boring than enhancement melee. They use almost the exact same number of cooldowns, and the mechanics in melee are similar enough to be considered the same for most situations. I don't see how on earth that you thought enhancement was less boring when it does similar. How is a windfury proc more exciting than seal of command? More numbers?Enhancement gives up a lot to be a melee specialist. It goes against the design of the class (caster dps) and was a weird thing. But since the class was inherently flawed in it's design, just like paladins, it works. (Caster DPS with no pushback resistance and a single school for almost every spell)Now you bring up PVP. The original article really didn't strike me as talking about it. You act as if poison cleansing totem is better than cleanse for dealing with poisons (it pulses every 5 seconds, basically the same problem as cleanse shows up) or the totems make a shaman more able to handle PVP. They don't. We have a few more options but we also lack some that paladins and it makes it a wash, really.I love Paladins. They make raids more enjoyable, they are great tanks and healers and their DPS, while it needs work, is filled with buffs for the group.They need some things to make them do better in melee, no doubt. But saying that they are less boring (or capable than enhancement shaman in PVP) is a bit off. The article was pretty much dead on for all other points. ;)
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