Encrypted Text: Raiding as a Rogue, Part II

Every Wednesday, Elizabeth Wachowski or Chris Jahosky write Encrypted Text, a look into the shadowy world of rogues.
Last time, when I discussed raiding on your rogue, I talked about the differences between the 3 talent trees as they relate to raiding, and the Hit cap. A couple of people made comments that basically say there is no magic number for Hit rating that you need to be at, and this is true. I'm not advocating stacking hit at the expense of all your other stats. There should be a balance, and you don't want to gimp yourself in other areas just to stack Hit rating.
Today, one of the things I'm talking about is the Expertise cap, which should be viewed in a similar light -- the information is there so that you can make good decisions regarding your gear. Don't just run out and start stacking Hit and Expertise and leave your other stats to twist in the wind.
Last time, when I discussed raiding on your rogue, I talked about the differences between the 3 talent trees as they relate to raiding, and the Hit cap. A couple of people made comments that basically say there is no magic number for Hit rating that you need to be at, and this is true. I'm not advocating stacking hit at the expense of all your other stats. There should be a balance, and you don't want to gimp yourself in other areas just to stack Hit rating.
Today, one of the things I'm talking about is the Expertise cap, which should be viewed in a similar light -- the information is there so that you can make good decisions regarding your gear. Don't just run out and start stacking Hit and Expertise and leave your other stats to twist in the wind.
Expertise
Not too long ago Blizzard introduced a new stat, called Expertise, to the game. Expertise, like Hit Rating, increases your chance to hit by decreasing the possibility that your attacks are dodged or parried. Parries can be removed from the attack table by hitting your opponent from behind (more on that later), but as we saw above, we must take into account the 6.5% dodge chance. Expertise Rating lowers this dodge chance, thus increasing the chance that our attacks hit. To reach the "Expertise Cap," of 6.5%, we need 103 Expertise Rating. At this time, I don't believe that can be reached, being a relatively new stat, but look for it to show up on more gear in the future. However, Combat has a talent that increases Expertise (not Expertise Rating) by 10. One point of Expertise reduces the chance our attacks are dodged or parried by 0.25%. Thus, the 10 Expertise we gain from the Weapon Expertise talent lowers our target's dodge/parry chance by 2.5%.
Let's look at the attack table from before, this time with 10 Expertise:
- 1-18: Miss (18%)
- 19-23: Dodge (4%*)
- 23-48: Glancing Blow (25%)
- 49-94: Critical Strike (45%)
- 95-100: Hit (8%)
As you can see, as we approach the Hit / Expertise caps, your DPS increases because you are hitting your target instead of missing or being dodged. Just for posterity, let's look at an ideal attack table for a Rogue with a more realistic 30% crit chance who has reached the Hit and Expertise caps:
- 0: Miss (0%)
- 0: Dodge (0%)
- 1-25: Glancing Blow (25%)
- 26-56: Critical Strike (30%)
- 57-100: Hit (55%)
Positioning
The place that you stand while attacking has an effect on your DPS, your health, and your tank's health. The reason for this is due to the way that a Parry works in the game: after a Parry, you attack instantly; similarly, if your attack is Parried, you can expect an instant counterattack on the mob's current target. If you are soloing, this means you. If you are in a raid, this means your tank. In a boss fight, getting parried can be devastating -- bosses hit for far more damage than other mobs, so any time they get an extra attack is that much more damage your tank has to try to live through or avoid, which in turn puts pressure on the healers.
Also, many mobs have an ability called Cleave, which hits multiple opponents in a 180 degree arc in front of them. As a Rogue, you do not want to be eating this damage. It's more work for the healers, who should be focusing on the tank.
"How can I avoid being parried?" I hear you saying. Luckily, it's pretty simple -- always attack from the back. Not the side, the back. Attacks made from the back have no chance of being parried -- this means you increase your chance to hit by decreasing your chance to be parried, and you don't give the target any extra swings to use against your tank. In boss fights, this is an important rule to follow. If you can't attack from the back, try to hit from the side, as close to the back as you can.
Again -- always attack from the back (whenever possible). After all, Rogues do it from Behind.
Spec
I am of the opinion that Combat Sword is the strongest build available for a Rogue who is starting to raid -- followed by Combat Mace, Combat Fist, Combat Mutilate, Combat Hemo, and Combat Shadowstep. The extra attack given from Sword Spec is invaluable, and can be triggered by an off-hand attack (note: off-hand sword attacks with sword spec trigger a main hand sword attack). The remaining specs I have listed decrease in effectiveness for raids down to Combat Hemo (which gets a bump once you get to 25 man raids). While you can raid with other specs, this guide is written for rogues who are looking to maximize their effectiveness, and thus I will only mention the above specs. Please note I am not recommending Combat Daggers, mostly because it is difficult to do anything but raid with that spec, and many rogues just starting to raid are still spending a significant amount of time farming.
Combat Sword/Mace/Fist - 19/42/0
These builds are identical except for Weapon Specialization. Simply shift the 5 points to whatever weapon spec you desire. This is currently the most powerful Rogue DPS build available.
Combat Mutilate - 41/20/0
Uses daggers, but does competitive damage in smaller raids. Damage output suffers if your target isn't poisoned, but that shouldn't usually be a problem unless you come up on an immune mob. Requires you to attack from behind, but you should already be doing that in a raid anyway. This can be more fun to play, but requires a lot of concentration to stay on top of the damage meters. Should be even more competitive in 2.4 when Mutilate gains a talent to increase its crit chance by 15%.
Combat Hemo - 0/38/23
There are a few possible variants of this build, but I would suggest you use this as a template and tweak it if necessary. I think that due to the lower energy cost of Hemo, you can afford to put the 2 points in Dirty Deeds rather than fill up Combat Potency. You will likely notice a drop in your DPS on longer fights due to the loss of the talents from the Assassination tree, but in larger raids the Hemo debuff should make up for it.
Combat Shadowstep - 0/20/41
Those that refuse to drop Shadowstep but still want to raid should try this build. Like Combat Hemo, your personal DPS will suffer but a larger raid should just about make up for it. I can't recommend this build for serious raiding, but if you don't have the money to respec for raids the points in Combat will help you out a bit. I haven't raided with this spec, but I can't imagine the DPS is competitive on anything but trash fights.
More information on technique, gem and gear selection for these types of builds can be found on the excellent Roguecraft 101 thread over on the Elitist Jerks forums.
Filed under: Rogue, (Rogue) Encrypted Text, How-tos, Raiding






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Erika Mar 12th 2008 5:09PM
Thats my exact mutilate spec except i have points in Endurance instead of Improved Sprint.
Cloze Mar 12th 2008 5:18PM
Combat Mace, Combat Fist?
LOL.
First off no. Combat Swords is followed by Combat Fist/Offhand Sword, then by Combat Daggers / Combat Fist / Combat Mace.
Go the the EJ site if you want reasons why.
First off there is a hemo raid spec that is viable, you don't have that mentioned. Secondly shadowstep with raiding = you're raid is carrying your dps and you should be replaced.
Come on wowinsider, these aren't hard to research.
Makros Mar 12th 2008 5:30PM
Reading comprehension FTW.
"then by Combat Daggers" - Cloze
"Please note I am not recommending Combat Daggers, mostly because it is difficult to do anything but raid with that spec, and many rogues just starting to raid are still spending a significant amount of time farming." - Chris
"Secondly shadowstep with raiding = you're raid is carrying your dps and you should be replaced." - Cloze
"I can't recommend this build for serious raiding, but if you don't have the money to respec for raids the points in Combat will help you out a bit. I haven't raided with this spec, but I can't imagine the DPS is competitive on anything but trash fights." - Chris
Charlie Taylor Mar 12th 2008 5:32PM
I don't think he was listing them in any particular order...
Makros Mar 12th 2008 5:32PM
Reading comprehension FTW.
"then by Combat Daggers" - Cloze
"Please note I am not recommending Combat Daggers, mostly because it is difficult to do anything but raid with that spec, and many rogues just starting to raid are still spending a significant amount of time farming." - Chris
"Secondly shadowstep with raiding = you're raid is carrying your dps and you should be replaced." - Cloze
"I can't recommend this build for serious raiding, but if you don't have the money to respec for raids the points in Combat will help you out a bit. I haven't raided with this spec, but I can't imagine the DPS is competitive on anything but trash fights." - Chris
Makros Mar 12th 2008 5:33PM
Double post also FTW.
valisil Mar 12th 2008 5:28PM
I wish Blizzard would make subtlety a more viable raid spec. I can never get in a raid group becuase of my spec, and after a year of playing with subtlety talents I have no intention of respecing.
MechChef Mar 12th 2008 5:30PM
I'll admit daggers aren't that great these days for combat, but they're not so bad as to be completely left off the table either. And while shadowstep has been improved as of late, mentioning it in a combat role over daggers = lolstep.
Fold Mar 12th 2008 5:36PM
Pretty good writeup overall, but rogues trying to raid as Hemo should note that Hemo builds pretty much suck without at least 11 points in Assassination to pick up Relentless Strikes. The so called "tri-spec" (something like 11/27/22) is still the best Hemo DPS, but the DPS you're adding to the raid is arguably equal to or less than what you're giving up personally by not being Combat. Another good link is the Hemo Point of Inflection thread on EJ.
hellshire Mar 12th 2008 5:36PM
Combat daggers isn't THAT hard to farm with, so long as you have the ping for it. Ya it's a little more work then stand still and spam your SS/hemo key, but you shouldn't dissregard it all together.
Also, your chances of picking up decent daggers vs decent swords is pretty high. There are no offhand swords in Kara, so prepare to pvp for your gladiator quickblade.
Schadow Mar 12th 2008 5:48PM
Rogues going Hemo should avoid that "Combat Hemo" spec, unless they want a signifigant nerf in DPS. I suggest if you wish to go Hemo anything, you should use a hybrid 11/27/23 spec (See armory entry for Schadow on Steamwheedle Cartel (US) for the spec I use).
Per the RogueDPS spreadsheet, my personal DPS, excluding the Hemo debuff estimate, drops 5.38% if I was to use the Combat Hemo build presented here. No wonder it's so far down the list!
While Combat Potency seems like a good thing, getting some skills in the assassination tree will benefit you even more.
The hybrid build will help you maintain your personal DPS, and in a 25-man raid will cause more overall damage than even a Combat Swords build. For doubters, download my character info into the RogueDPS spreadsheet and have a look at the numbers yourself.
Sirg Mar 12th 2008 5:48PM
What can you comment on the new daggers/claws that will be available in 2.4?
I guess that 2x 103 dps daggers are better than 2x 91 dps gladiator swords, or am I mistaken?
Mihn Mar 12th 2008 5:49PM
Hmm, I dont agree with your Combat swords build.
Improved gouge?
I would rather use those three points in dodge. I dont know how many times that has saved me from a cleave, which would tax the healers even more.
Imrproved kick?
Useless, if you are on an interrupt assignment, your regular kick should suffice. Most raid level bosses are immune to silence anyway. Put one point in Nerves of steel, I know its seems like a waste, but, being able to resist low level mob fears is good, IMO. You don't run into another group of mobs and doom the raid to death. Also keep the cleanser of the raid off your back.
Lethality.
Put 2 points in that, it has been proved mathematically that is it useless. Take points out of Vile poisons put 5 points in imp poisons. Why? What good is extra poison damage if you arent applying it. I would rather have 5 stacks ticking off damage, than doing extra damage.
Put two in remorseless. I do very little Evis in raids, if you do, then put them in Imp evis. I like remorseless though, cause it can proc off any thing the raid kill during trash pulls.
Im sure people will find fault with my build though. Take it or leave it. Look for Mihn on Kael Thas, to see my build.
Matthew Mar 12th 2008 6:09PM
Agreed on Gouge and Improved Kick; I have never found those abilities to be very useful. Speaking as a gnome rogue, with Escape Artist, the Improved Sprint is also usually a waste of a couple of points. I likewise like to put the extra three points into Lightning Reflexes. Ideally you won't be getting hit in a raid, but it's generally a more useful soloing tool than Improved Gouge, at least outside of a stunluck build or something. I barely ever need to gouge while farming or soloing, and if I do it's usually to interrupt spellcasting when my other cooldowns aren't up, so the extra seconds do nothing for me.
Sylvanal Mar 18th 2008 9:58PM
His combat spec is just about the best raiding dps spec there is. Drop a point in the combat tree and add 4/5 vile poisons and its the best. With Deadly poison on your OH, you should have no problem keeping up the stack.
kidsmoke Mar 12th 2008 5:54PM
Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, but I was deep combat 19/41 for over a year, and recently switched to a (lol) 0/20/41 build and I'm (eek!) still getting top 3 of damage on 25 man raids.
The only time I suffer is on non bleedable targets. Deep Subs rupture is just bamphf when combined with mangle, and just watch as those ticks go up on the last 35% of the boss.
Yes, there are a few downsides to the spec: energy starved, combo point starved, and highly reliant upon bleeds, but it does very comparable damage with deep combat.
As myself and another (Deep combat) rogue are constantly battling it out.
I don't think a lot of rogues understand how to baby the spec. You need a feral druid in your raid for mangle, and you need to stack ALOT of atk pwr. After raid buffs with shout up I'm at 3200 atkpwr, even more so when Bloodlust Brooch is up.
It gets to be pretty clear when your mainhand white crits are hitting for as much your special attacks that the lack of energy is made up by your crazy melee damage.
I'm not saying that 0/20/41 is better than a cookie cutter 19/42/0 build, but it does competitive damage, and in no way "nerfs your raid", and believe me when I'm sitting in the top 3 (if not first spot) consistently with equally if not better geared guildies they are not CARRYING me.
Now once we move past SSC and TK, then maybe things will change. Maybe my spec will be utterly useless. I still have a high hit set in the bank from my deep combat days, and maybe I'll spec back, but until then people need to be more open minded to specs when raiding.
kidsmoke Mar 12th 2008 5:55PM
correction 19/42
Fold Mar 12th 2008 5:59PM
@kidsmoke: if you're really competitive as ShS in raids, your fellow DPSers are undergeared, not very good, slacking off, or some combination of those. Compare the builds in a DPS spreadsheet like you can find on Elitist Jerks, your anecdotal personal testimony is worse than useless, it's misleading.
@Mihn: Nerves of Steel is a pretty bad choice for an exclusive raid build. Boss AOE fears your raid, including your tank and you resist it? Now the boss is on you, one-shot goodbye!
Fold Mar 12th 2008 5:59PM
@kidsmoke: if you're really competitive as ShS in raids, your fellow DPSers are undergeared, not very good, slacking off, or some combination of those. Compare the builds in a DPS spreadsheet like you can find on Elitist Jerks, your anecdotal personal testimony is worse than useless, it's misleading.
@Mihn: Nerves of Steel is a pretty bad choice for an exclusive raid build. Boss AOE fears your raid, including your tank and you resist it? Now the boss is on you, one-shot goodbye!
Balasan Mar 12th 2008 8:37PM
I'd like to know when you last fought a boss that feared. Evidently a long time ago.
Bosses that fear now still follow the original target regardless if there are other players who resisted the fear. Nightbane if you're in Kara, Archimonde in late game. You will actually benefit by resisting a fear now as you can continue to DPS.
Please play the game. Goodbye.