"I rolled my class to PvP."
by Daniel Whitcomb 
Mar 14th 2008 at 7:00PM
A little while ago, Drysc said in a post that "a prot warrior or shadow priest or what have you should though be able to jump into a battleground or arena and be able to do something with some small amount of success." This hasn't gone over well with many shadow priests. Even with Drysc trying to correct himself in multiple threads and insist that he doesn't mean that the class will never get more viable, a lot of shadow priests are up in arms.
It's probably pretty understandable. After all, before Burning Crusade, a Shadow Priest was pretty much universally feared upon the field of battle. They seemed to take almost no damage in Shadowform, and their DoTs tore through you with ease. Even in the early days of the Arenas, you saw quite a few Warlock/Shadow Priest teams tearing up the charts. These days, Shadowform doesn't really absorb damage like it used to, Psychic Scream doesn't really cut it as CC, and resilience makes sure that their DoTs are blunted quite handily. So what DO you do when you chose a class and spec to PvP, only to have that spec suddenly become lackluster in PvP? This isn't like Protection Warriors, who have known from the start they'd be good as tanks, and tanks alone.
We all generally have a good idea these days of what we roll a class and choose a spec to do. A Protection Paladin expects to tank. A Mage expects to DPS. But it's the divide between which specs are good at PvE and which at PvP that seems to be getting a little thorny lately. Should a player be able to count on their spec always being viable at the same aspects of the game? If so, should Shadow Priests expect PvP buffs sooner rather than later? Or should they accept that their age of PvP dominance was in the Battlegrounds and the pre-70 era, and resign themselves to speccing Discipline if they want to succeed in Arenas?
Filed under: Priest, Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Classes, Talents, Battlegrounds, Arena
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
thebvp Mar 14th 2008 7:28PM
As someone who plays a priest, warrior, and warlock at level 70, I feel like shadow priests are greedy.
Few classes have more than one generally accepted spec or role in the arena and like it or not, classes change. It's stated all over the game "PLAYER EXPERIENCE MAY CHANGE OVER TIME." Shadow is basically the priest's version of the fury tree, and take a look at the direction Blizzard took fury if you want to see what they have in store for shadow.
Warlocks have a *slight* edge in their "make destro viable for pvp" argument, over shadow priests, even, because their arena spec of choice isn't in one particular tree, but a scattered hybrid, although I could see them nerfing destro for pvp completely and buffing, say, full demonology to make up for it.
Rhapsody Mar 14th 2008 7:42PM
"As someone who plays a priest, warrior, and warlock at level 70, I feel like shadow priests are greedy."
Hey now! I'm a raiding shadow priest who's quite comfortable with certain specs being strongest in one venue. I don't particularly feel I need to be on par with those who have the most viable specs for PvP. I agree with Drysc that it shouldn't have to be perfectly balanced for all specs to have viability in PvP, just like not all specs are suitable for certain roles for PvE.
As someone pointed out in the comment thread on the tanking issues article, "just because people can't do something with a class doesn't mean it's set in stone that it can't be done." Creative people will find a way to make their favorite spec work for them in whatever venue they choose to frequent.
Rick Mar 15th 2008 11:33AM
I guess the real problem, with shadow priests in particular is that a) it WAS the pvp spec pre-bc. I know I rolled my shadow priest just to pvp because a HW in our guild was one and just looked so damn cool all purple. And b) I would respec to disc in a second but the though of having to collect ANOTHER pvp gear set just kills my motivation so my shadow priest is shelved :(
dan Mar 15th 2008 4:45PM
There were plenty of fury warriors dominating prebc pvp too. They're in a similar boat. Fact remains talents, builds, mechanics, and popular specs change all the time.
Max Mar 14th 2008 7:40PM
While you shouldn't be able to spec for PVP and PVE in one go, you should be able to find a combination of talents for each spec that support that particular type of gameplay. Resto Druids, for example, are great in both, but they don't spec exactly the same because certain talents work better in one aspect of the game than another. This whole change to Disc because Shadow isn't meant to be PvP viable thing sounds like a cop-out on Blizz's part. There are a lot of off-specs that get dicked in this game, and they need to start focusing on them for once.
heartless_ Mar 14th 2008 7:58PM
Problem is, many main specs get really really nice skills to perform well, where as any sort of hybrid or off spec gets jack shit in PvP. For example, Enhance Shamans, great DPS, but nothing to leverage it in PvP. Shadow Priests, same deal.
Yet, MS warriors get gankercept, an anti-healing debuff with Mortal Strike, insane HP, isnane armor, hamstring, fear, and operate on a mechanic that does not run out when they get going. It is no wonder then why MS warriors are becoming the cornerstone of any PvP team.
This isn't about making the off specs viable, it should be about redistributing some of the overpowering garbage that the main specs already get.
Guenon Mar 14th 2008 8:05PM
Even though I am a raiding holy priest who, from time to time, likes to dabble in the arena using the disc spec, I can understand the dilemma shadow priests have. Let's face it; majority of the people enjoy the infliction of damage (a la dps) aspect of the game. If Blizzard created an entire dps pvp set for priests, there is an admittance on their part of a possibly viable dps spec. However, now they seem to be giving a message to existing shadow priests that they were wrong to invest in that gear.
In short, if you rolled a priest, like to do arena and enjoy doing dps, you are screwed.... for now.
Kaphik Mar 14th 2008 8:05PM
Heartless, you made absolutely no sense with your post. MS warriors are a particulae spec of warrior, just like shadow priests are a particular spec of priest, and enhance shamans a spec of shaman. A warrior, using your example of an ultimate pvp class, still needs gear and teamwork to excel. No healing for the warrior, means no kills for that warrior.
Yes, every spec isn't the ultimate spec for pvp. If you want things easy, then spec your class to its "ideal" pvp spec. However, nothing is stopping you from having fun with your spec, and still pvping. You may not be one of the top 10 players in the world at that spec, but if you get some people that work together, you can get an 1800 rating and get your shoulders and weapon.
I have a shadow priest, and I have a warrior I have been playing for over two years, back when FURY was the pvp spec and Arms wasn't what it is now. Things change, good players adapt.
Angus Mar 15th 2008 8:43AM
How do you adapt when they decide to rip out every bit of pvp viability from your class or spec and having to regear after every major patch is just not worth it?
Shaman.
Arena starts and already they best PVP spec was worthless. Resto and elemental were they better spec, resto being dominant.
S2 rolls around and Resto's now kind of weak because other people are countering it's strengths and the weaknesses are exploited easily.
S3 rolls around and elemental gets nailed for their burst damage so now they are weak as hell.
How exactly were we supposed to adapt? Blizzard's numbers are stupidly wrong. They expect maybe 2% of all arena players above 2200 to be shaman in 2v. 9 classes and we are so weak we don't even get 20% of our expected playing percentage if the classes were balanced well.
Some classes have no choice in how they adapt. Reroll if you want to pvp.
Kaphik Mar 14th 2008 8:05PM
Heartless, you made absolutely no sense with your post. MS warriors are a particulae spec of warrior, just like shadow priests are a particular spec of priest, and enhance shamans a spec of shaman. A warrior, using your example of an ultimate pvp class, still needs gear and teamwork to excel. No healing for the warrior, means no kills for that warrior.
Yes, every spec isn't the ultimate spec for pvp. If you want things easy, then spec your class to its "ideal" pvp spec. However, nothing is stopping you from having fun with your spec, and still pvping. You may not be one of the top 10 players in the world at that spec, but if you get some people that work together, you can get an 1800 rating and get your shoulders and weapon.
I have a shadow priest, and I have a warrior I have been playing for over two years, back when FURY was the pvp spec and Arms wasn't what it is now. Things change, good players adapt.
rick gregory Mar 14th 2008 8:10PM
I think most of the uproar is that, while we all realize the game can change, it's disheartening to see a class/spec chaneg SO radically.
After all, you research what's good for what you want to do (PvP in this case) you level up, gather gear that supports what you want... and it's totally changed by Blizzard. And then a Blizzard rep posts in a manner suggesting that, hey, that's alright... So many times people are told to do their homework... and here they did and still got screwed.
Frankly I don't think Blizzard should totally overhaul a class like that - make small, incremental changes, but to completely revamp a classes/specs playstyle is a problem I think.
Rhapsody Mar 14th 2008 8:26PM
"to completely revamp a classes/specs playstyle is a problem I think."
Yes, that's why you hear prot paladins complaining about how they're viable tanks post-TBC in a way they really weren't in the legacy release.
Spoil Mar 14th 2008 8:23PM
My biggest problem as a shadow priest isn't that shadow is no longer the strongest priest spec for arena. I would happily respec to discipline if that's all that was required to be a successful player.
Unfortunately talent spec is only part of the equation. Unlike warlocks, mages, hunters and rogues (somewhat), priests have to completely re-gear in order to take advantage of their other roles. As a shadow priest I spent a lot of time gearing out as shadow, only to be told that my other trees are better for arena and now I get to completely re-gear for discipline. I think Drysc put it perfectly when he mentioned the shadow priests with the protection warriors on the forums, since like us, if you were to gear up and spec a protection spec warrior for arena you would have a tough time re-gearing for MS.
The tough thing is, we were expecting to be a strong force in the arena. History told us so. Only an idiot would expect a prot warrior to do well in arena.
I really hope they come up with some sort of gear swapping ability for arena gear. It would balance things out for all of the hybrids out there.
GreatLich Mar 14th 2008 9:08PM
"Unlike warlocks, mages, hunters and rogues (somewhat), priests have to completely re-gear in order to take advantage of their other roles."
Tell me, what *other* roles do warlocks, mages, hunters and rogues have?
Spoil Mar 14th 2008 9:35PM
I'll concede they don't have any roles other than DPS, but I'm sure they knew that when they leveled their characters to 70. So I guess it's a trade-off, I could either:
a) always have an effective talent spec for both PvE and PvP by rolling one of the above mentioned classes. I would have to stick to DPS for this option.
b) I could roll one of the other classes and let blizzard decide which portion of the game I'll play for any given patch. I would have a variety of roles in PvE or PvP, but it would be almost impossible to obtain gear for more than one of them.
Raaj Mar 14th 2008 10:40PM
I'm sure I'll get flamed to hell and back for this, but here goes...
What if they just released 1 set of arena gear for each class, but each piece has a "Use:" effect on it that converted it to the next type? Then people could sort of change gear as they go when they make huge changes.
Oh, feral sucks now? Time to try out balance...
Elemental not playing out as well as you'd hoped with the highest level of gear? Let's switch over to enhance...
Sure, this would make doing arenas in the higher brackets POINTless (pun intended) after they've obtained all their current season's gear, but seeing how many people just sell teams anyway instead of sticking with one for a high rating, who cares?
Erix Mar 15th 2008 1:54AM
"Tell me, what *other* roles do warlocks, mages, hunters and rogues have?"
It's not so much that they're other roles, but using rogues as an example -- some specs are more crit-demanding, others are dependent on AP, you're not going to be amassing hit rating for pvp as you do in pve.
I have three sets of gear for my rogue. One for deep subtlety, another for combat swords, and another for mutilate. One set of gear is not as viable as another for the same role, and one spec isn't going to perform as well for both.
Maybe I'm rambling, but I'm sure it's the same with every non-hybrid class.
Jordrah Mar 14th 2008 10:07PM
i just hope they make ret the pally pvp spec and nerf the hell out of holy pvp
Leaf Mar 14th 2008 10:24PM
"Or should they accept that their age of PvP dominance was in the Battlegrounds and the pre-70 era, and resign themselves to speccing Discipline if they want to succeed in Arenas?"
Yes.
Simple as that really. Same thing happens to all classes that were good at PvP with specs that relied heavily on crits. Feral Druids, Assassination Rogues, Fury Warriors, Enhancement Shamans.
All those specs within those classes should basically in my opinion accept the change in the game or do something else.
Harsh but I'm afraid it's the truth.
qoa Mar 14th 2008 11:04PM
Maybe true, but I'm sure what shadow priest relied on crits. The problem is that a lot of the warlock nerfs have kicked shadow priests in the nuts. All of the stuff with dots hurt.
I played a shadow priest from 1-60 then 60-70 and my priest is retired. The lone reason for rolling one was for shadow. It is sort of silly that you have to spec into a full on defensive talent tree to survive the zerging you receive as a priest in the arena. Going from somebody who was at least respected in pvp to the easiest kill in site isn't exactly "fair". I do agree they were a little overpowered, but now it's silly.