Forum post of the day: "Long Road Home"
by Eliah Hecht 
Mar 16th 2008 at 3:00PM
If it were up to me, I'd call this "forum post of the month," but I guess March is still young and that would probably be premature. At 2,600 words, this is one of the longest forum posts I've read in its entirety, but it was entirely worth it. In fact, it was so well-written that it didn't feel like a wall of text at all. Alright, but what is it about?Titled "Long Road Home - Vanilla to WotLK", this great post by Calian (of Norgannon-A) explores the history of the endgame in WoW, from the days when MC was the only raid and there were no battlegrounds all the way through to the forthcoming patch 2.4 and into Wrath. It focuses on the origin and development of the casual/hardcore divide, which has become one of the hottest topics in WoW discussion today.
You owe it to yourself to read the post, but in short, he comes back to the familiar conclusion that casuals need hardcores to inspire them, and hardcores need casuals to show off to; therefore the animosity between the two groups is very much misplaced, and they are in fact in a mutually beneficial relationship. I'm inclined to agree. What's your take on it?
[via WarCry]
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Jeff Mar 16th 2008 3:15PM
What a great post! Can I use it as an essay for school? lol.
Jeff
http://www.wowdungeon.com
Tirion Mar 16th 2008 3:49PM
So, "casuals" are good because they give "hardcore" players someone to look down at, and "hardcore" players are good because casuals can look at their gear and say "oooh" and "ahh."
The poster can bite me.
First of all, the entire argument was never really between "casuals" and "hardcore," it's between raiders and non-raiders. Before BC, non-raiders were pretty much done advancing once they hit level 60. Me personally, I tried the 40 man game and found it severely lacking. Between the hours-long waits and the kind of asshats you find in your average raiding guild, it just wasn't worth it. The old honor system was a soul-crushing grind (even Blizzard has admitted it), meaning that there was basically no chance at gear upgrades after UBRS.
True casual players took more than a year to reach 60th level. They have five or six low level alts that they play regularly and they rarely post on the official forums. The people who complained about Blizzard's raiding fixation were the players who, like me, were playing 25-30 hours a week and seeing no progression whatsoever.
For most of us hardcore non-raiders, the "good old days" sucked. We really had better things to do than stand around Ogrimmar and admire your Tier 2. Post-BC, WoW is a far better game. I'm too busy in the arena, running heroics, doing dailies and hitting 10-man raids to care about your T6 armor. If you need someone to admire you, get a fricking dog.
C.A. Mar 16th 2008 3:55PM
I have to agree. I don't "need" anyone to "inspire" me to have fun while playing a game. I haven't read the post yet though, so I don't know if the op means well or what. That was my gut reaction though. I'll be back.....
Dunwich Mar 16th 2008 3:56PM
Took the words right from my brain. Albeit with less swearing, and the fact you have logged in in the last month.
Tirion Mar 16th 2008 4:06PM
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so harsh, but this kinda stuff has been getting under my skin for a long, long time.
BitterCupOJoe Mar 16th 2008 4:25PM
Much agreement here. The 40 man raids were an abomination. I signed on for a fun epic heroic type of game, and there is nothing epic or entertaining about being drone 36 in the 40 person zergfest on some raid boss. I think the 10-mans are solid: a little larger than an average tabletop gaming group, but enough to both make the danger seem greater ("We need TEN guys to down this! Wow!") while simultaneously giving everyone a chance to shine. If the encounters aren't hard enough for raiders, then, honestly, they need to go find something else to do for a few hours. There needs to be a point where you say, "Okay, I've played enough today."
I don't look up to the hardcore folks, I pity them. I play the game to relax and have some fun, spend a little time gaming with my wife, and to take a look at the entertaining little storylines in the game. Other than their insight into the numbers behind the game, most of which can be figured out with some basic math, if the hardcore folks disappeared today, I would not miss them at all. From the bored guy in Tier 6 killing level 20s in Tarren Mill to the 5 hour a day framer that I mistake for a Chinese gold seller, they are the folks that tend to tilt the game away from what it was intended to be: a fun diversion.
Zegim Mar 16th 2008 5:13PM
I see it this way:
The most memorable thing in recent patches has been the inclusion of Zul' Aman. Hardcore content.
The most talked about thing in the new patch is new endgame content.
We might agree or not in the level of importance this has, but hardcore content tends to attract the attention of casual, if only to claim "I have a life, lolz".
BitterCupOJoe Mar 16th 2008 5:26PM
The only way it attracts my attention is that I say, "There's enough endgame content already. Flesh out the lower level stuff." I loved it when they made Dustwallow Marsh actually be a useful zone. I'd love some revamps of some of the other zones, instead of yet another thing for the hardcore crews to zerg through.
In other words, the only reason it gets talked about is because it's the only new content all.
Thrush Mar 17th 2008 8:04AM
Agree .. you hit it dead on.
Calybos Mar 17th 2008 9:32AM
Direct quote: "For the casual, the hard core player (believe it or not) has served as your WoW billboard for more then 3 years now. It is by their accomplishments that we have measured our own success in game, time and time again. At one point or another, you’ve seen some player with a new item and thought, “I want that” or’ “That looks REALLY cool”. These players have served as a driving force for interest in this game and the hopes to achieve ones goals. One needs milestones and heroes to look to for inspiration when founding our own dreams of success. "
In your DREAMS, loser. Or (more politey)... umm, no. Not a bit. Hardcore players don't "inspire" me in any way--except to make a mental note not to become like them.
Hardcore raiders want a game that rewards them, and ONLY them, for their many, many hours of slavishly pounding away at raids, battlegrounds, etc. Warcraft is designed to interest casual players, who are in it for the fun... and that model is working, to the tune of about 10 million subscribers.
If you're a dedicated, number-crunching, endgame raider, you can find something to do in Warcraft and indulge your particular style of play (cough:addiction:cough)... but don't pretend for a moment that your phat lewt is somehow "inspiring" to the rest of us.
The heroes and role models in Warcraft, if any, are the lore NPCs who have a major impact on lore events and Azeroth history/destiny. Not the posing, prancing loser by the mailbox showing off his latest Tier 6 Shoulderpads of Doom.
Tim Mar 16th 2008 4:04PM
Yeah, I think Blizzard needs to figure out a way to make the game challenging and hard for an individual player. Raid encounters are difficult to master because of all the coordination involved, but that doesn't mean Blizz can't devise equally hard soloable encounters. I dunno, like going into a personal instance Indiana Jones-style, with the instance on a weekly reset.
Blizz, USE YOUR IMAGINATIONS!
Lori Mar 16th 2008 4:38PM
The game can be challenging for soloists if they chose to try orange and red quests. Maybe there needs to be more of these. Or they can run lower level instances solo for a challenge.
To make interesting, same level, solo instances, it might be necessary to make NPC mercenaries, that are semi controllabe, available to take along. Like a warrior gets to chose a DPS and a healer to go along.
This might take a lot of development or not if they can reuse mob code for the NPC mercenaries.
And I don't agree with the forum posters conclusion. I don't need anyone to look up or down to.
adalon Mar 16th 2008 4:07PM
People have too much free time if they're writing essays about this stuff.
Zarzuur Mar 16th 2008 4:10PM
When people say "casual" what they really mean is T4/heroic badge-farmers, who are kind of hardcore in their own way.
IMO, the issue is simply that there are more badges regularly available from the lower tiers than the higher ones.
All they need to do is put badge gear into tiers, or have some unique items/achievements. Like the challenger/gladiator/duelist/etc PvP title which is based on relative top-% ranking .. not everyone can get that and there isn't eternal QQ-ing over it.
Staggerlee Mar 16th 2008 4:12PM
More pompous elitist Raiders veiling their QQ;ing.
/yawn
anonymoose Mar 16th 2008 7:37PM
Stagger, you need to return to school to shore up your reading comprehension. You completely missed the point of the article.
C.A. Mar 16th 2008 4:14PM
Okay, having read the post now I can say that I agree and disagree with the op. I don't think bickering between each other does any good. It also seems to me that raiders can't get out of a "gear" or "reward" mindset. I enjoy playing wow, not just getting epics. I am causual for sure, I would love to see things like Naxxramas or Illidan, even if I got zero loot. I think that hurts their whole view. They can't enjoy the game unless they "inspiring" people with their loot.
I know that doesn't go for every raider, but it usually goes for the most vocal ones.
rick gregory Mar 16th 2008 5:30PM
But you can't see the endgame without getting loot along the way. Certainly some people get caught up in loot as a status thing, but loot also = more capabilities. There's a difference between obsessing over loot as loot and loot because it will let you do well in the next higher tier.
There's already some 'casuals have a life, raiders don't' comments appearing, which is sadly ignorant. Far too many people are caught up in the 'people who game are losers with no life' yet they'd never say the same thing about people who go to bars 4 nights a week with their friends, people who rent movies, watch sports, etc. It's a game... some people play it seriously and it's their main entertainment. Some people play it a few hours a week as one of the several things they do as entertainment. If you feel superior in either case you're just dick-swinging.
len Mar 16th 2008 4:19PM
Casual = people with lives
Hard core = people without lives
I used to be "hard core" in a "casual" raiding guild. We only finished BWL a few weeks before the expansion came out. I used to get pissed at the slackers who weren't pulling their weight.
Now I'm one of them. Because it's just a game and I simply do not care. I laugh at people who take it seriously.
Why did I stop caring? Because it has become apparent that Blizzard is trying to be all things to all people. They quickly surrender to whining, nerf everything, give out welfare epics with the arena, destroyed the economy with daily quests, and turned everything into a mind-numbingly stupid grind. There is no reason to try, because in the end, your gear is worthless and your accomplishments are forgotten with the next expansion, and you'll still have to jump through hours and hours of pointless hoops to get to the fun part.
I've always told people that this game is a contest to see whose time is the least valuable, but it was tongue-in-cheek. I never thought Blizzard would start taking that as advice in planning The Burning Crusade.
There is no sense of accomplishment anymore. So we killed Vashj, big deal. I still can't afford an epic mount, and I swear to Sargeras I'll never do another faction grind. Blizzard can bite me. This is a game for the unemployed and children.
Pingmeister Mar 16th 2008 4:21PM
Color me casual:
- Never raided
- Only grouped maybe 4 times on my 68 Priest
- Play every day but limited to 20 and 30 minute gametimes
I have absolutely no interest in hardcore players and what they accomplish. If they enjoy playing then great for them. If not, then perhaps they should take up knitting or Xtreme Snowboard knitting if it suits them better.
I enjoy playing WoW very casually and when I stop enjoying it I will stop playing.
Why in the world would any player of a specific style NEED another player to justify their gaming?
We exist in the same gameworld but don't even need to interact. Quit writing essays and just PLAY!