Encrypted Text: Finish him!
One of the biggest challenges for new rogues is figuring out the combo points/finishing move system. Sure, the combo points are easy, even though they really don't rely on "combos" per se. You hit stuff with your main move and get points. Any human, great ape, or intelligent robot could do it. But without an understanding of finishing moves, your target will die with five combo points on him and you will curse yourself for ever getting involved in this soul-sucking game.
So, to help you decide what move is appropriate when, here's a guide to the seven rogue finishers. (We'll get to openers in a couple of weeks.)
- What it is: Your first finisher, and if you're like most rogues, probably your favorite. This most basic of spells does direct physical damage based on how many combo points you have.
- Mechanism: According to WoWWiki, the official damage range of Eviscerate Rank 10 is:
Eviscerate = (Base Damage Minimum + Attack Power * (Number of Combo Points used * 0.03)) - (Base Damage Maximum + Attack Power * (Number of Combo Points used * 0.03)). Yeah, I'm bad at math too.
So what does this mean? Well, starting in 1.12, Evis finally began scaling with AP (a change many rogues were clamoring for.) But it scales very slightly -- and the more combo points you have, the better it scales, since the AP multiplier increases with each point. - Affected by: Improved Eviscerate, a first-tier Assassination talent, improves Evis's damage by 5/10/15%. Aggression, a sixth-tier Combat talent, improves it by 2/4/6%, along with SS and Backstab. The two-piece bonus of Tier 5 armor increases Evis's damage by 40 per combo point.
- Analysis: Sinister Strike/Eviscerate is the bread and butter of rogue leveling, particularly for combat swords/maces/fists rogues who don't spend a lot of time stunning. It's also great for grinding and finishing off opponents who have low health. However, when it comes to raiding, Evis is nearly useless. Unless the mob can't bleed (like in Kara), Rupture will always end up doing more damage than Evis, assuming the mob doesn't die before Rupture finishes ticking.
- What it is: The premier finishing move of all raiding rogues, Slice and Dice increases your attack speed.
- Mechanism: Increases your attack speed by 30% (after you get Rank 2 at level 42) for 9/12/15/18/21 seconds.
- Affected by: Improved Slice and DIce, a second-tier Combat talent, increases the length of Slice and Dice by 15/30/45%. The two-piece set bonus of Tier 4 increases the length by 3 seconds, and the two-piecer of Tier 6 increases the haste effect by 5%.
- Analysis: I will never understand rogues who don't use this ability. You want haste rating on your gear? This is a 30% haste increase that can be kept up easily throughout an entire boss fight. Admittedly, it's not the best for PvP, where Kidney Shot and Evis will be the weapons of choice. (Ultimus recommends using SnD in PvP if you have dual-wield spec, if you need to apply poisons quickly, or if you've almost killed a target and need to dump your combo points for the next fight.) SnD and Rupture are the backbone of rogue raiding. In the combat tree, sword-users do a 2pt SnD, 5pt Rupture rotation; daggerinos generally go 3pt SnD, 5pt SnD, 5pt Rupture, repeat. Mutilate and hemo rogues will have different rotations, but all specs will greatly benefit from keeping SnD up at ALL TIMES during raids. The mod Slicer helps.
- What it is: A finishing move that decreases your opponent's armor rating for 30 seconds. Becomes more effective with each combo point.
- Mechanism: Exposes the target for 30 sec, reducing armor per combo point: 410/820/1230/1640/2050 armor.
- Affected by: The third-tier Assassination talent Improved Expose Armor increases the armor reduction by 25/50%.
- Analysis: During my First Raid Evar, way back in ZG, I asked our overgeared BWL tank what I should do with Expose Armor. His answer? "Take it off your bar and never mention it again." While I wouldn't go that far, Expose Armor doesn't really fulfill its intended PvE role as a rogue-specific debuff. Sure, it helps increase melee damage against all sorts of mobs, and it can be killer against squishies in PvP. However, it's got one huge drawback -- if you've got a warrior tank, you can't use it. Your quick, five-point Expose Armor will go up a lot faster than his threat-generating Sunder Armor, and he won't be able to use one of his biggest threat moves. And after the group wipes because someone pulled off the tank, you're going to get a five-minute lecture on this very point. However, if a) a paladin or druid is tanking, b) you have two or more melee DPS on the target, and c) the fight will last the whole 30 seconds, go to town.
- What it is: A damage-over-time version of Eviscerate that ignores armor.
- Mechanism: Causes damage over time, increased by your attack power.
1pt = Attack Power * 0.04 + 324 over 8 sec
2pt = Attack Power * 0.10 + 460 over 10 sec
3pt = Attack Power * 0.18 + 618 over 12 sec
4pt = Attack Power * 0.21 + 798 over 14 sec
5pt = Attack Power * 0.24 + 1000 over 16 sec
So why is this better than Evis? The AP scaling is better, sure -- but most importantly, Rupture ignores armor, which takes off a lot of your Evis damage. - Affected by: Serrated Blades, a third-tier Subtlety talent, increases Rupture's damage by 10/20/30%. The feral druid's Mangle debuff will increase Rupture's damage by 30%.
- Analysis: As stated in the Slice and DIce section, Rupture is one of two big finishers for raiding rogues and is generally used after Slice and Dice. However, if your target has less than 30 seconds to live, Rupture will be less effective than Evis -- and if your target is a skeleton, a ghost or an elemental, it's REALLY less effective -- in fact, it doesn't work at all. For PvP, Rupture is a good way to prevent a target from stealthing or to kill someone who's planning on running away at low health. Note that this effectively invalidates most forms of crowd control.
- What it is: A long stun.
- Mechanism: Stuns your target for 2/3/4/5/6 seconds. Subject to diminishing returns.
- Affected by: Improved Kidney Shot, a fifth tier Assassination talent, increases damage done to a KS target by 3/6/9%. Kidney shotting a target within 15 seconds of the last KS will decrease the duration of the KS by 50%.
- Analysis: Of course, Kidney Shot shines in PvP, and is an important part of a stunlock build. The best time to KS is when your opponent has already blown his Blink/PvP trinket/etc. getting out of your Cheap Shot. But KS also has PvE uses. Dagger rogues use it for soloing and grinding, as it gives them time to run around to the back of a target and BS/Mutilate. All rogues can use it to stop a stray mob from chewing on a squishy. And it's super helpful for decreasing damage taken by your tanks from hard-hitting trash mobs (wait until after they get enough rage!) However, most bosses are immune to stuns at all times.
- What it is: A finishing move that converts Deadly Poison charges on a target to instant damage.
- Mechanism: Yet another complicated finisher modified by AP, the formula for this one goes:
1 dose: [180 + AP * 0.03] damage
2 doses: [360 + AP * 0.06] damage
3 doses: [540 + AP * 0.09] damage
4 doses: [720 + AP * 0.12] damage
5 doses: [900 + AP * 0.15] damage - Affected by: Vile Poisons, a 4th tier Assassination talent, increases Envenom damage by 4/8/12/16/20%.
- Analysis: Well, on the surface, it deals less damage than either Eviscerate or Rupture, and requires you to have both 5 combo points AND 5 Deadly Poison doses to get its full effect. So why would anyone use it? There's been an incredibly long theorycrafting fight over whether Envenom can ever really be worth it in raids. Like Rupture, it isn't affected by armor, but like Eviscerate, it's instant damage. The general consensus seems to be that Envenom is better than Eviscerate/Rupture if your mob has significant armor, you have a full stack of Deadly Poison, and your fight is going to be over quickly. Some rogues claim great use of Envenom with the right spec; I haven't seen much of this personally. Feel free to refute me!
- What it is: A ranged finishing move that slows the target and causes thrown weapon damage.
- Mechanism: According to WoWWiki:
1 Combo Point: 132-228 plus thrown weapon damage
2 Combo Points: 216-312 plus TWD
3 Combo Points: 300-396 plus TWD
4 Combo Points: 384-480 plus TWD
5 Combo Points: 468-564 plus TWD - Affected by: The High Warlord's/Grand Marshal's Leather Gloves add a spell interrupt and 3 second silence to Deadly Throw.
- Analysis: Deadly Throw is mostly a PvP gem, and requires the gloves to be super-effective. Deadly Throw is good for finishing off ranged enemies, particularly annoying mages who like to freeze you, Blink, and then start throwing a fireball at you. You can also turn and "jump-shot" enemies when running away. While Deadly Throw has few PvE implications other than killing runners, sometimes an ability's PvP purpose is good enough to justify its existence. Especially when it makes casters cry. (See: Cloak of Shadows.)
What's your favorite finisher? Do you think Envenom has a place in raids? What about fun tricks with Deadly Throw?
Filed under: (Rogue) Encrypted Text, Rogue, Guides







Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Nick S Mar 20th 2008 10:43AM
very interesting post - i'll be applying this to my lowbie poking-specialist.
and deadly throw is evilsauce with the glove upgrade...
MechChef Mar 20th 2008 10:53AM
As a dagger rogue about to switch to swords, I do lament that backstab doesn't build CP's fast enough to really get my DPS moving at the beginning of a boss-fight. In desperation, I've even done no-no's like full up the points by spamming shiv during SnD go get a 5pt rupture going before wears off.
I don't usually use eviscerate as I'm usually fighting CP starvation to keep Rupture/SnD running. I do burn it at the last couple percent of a mob though.
I love deadly throw for PVP if I'm fighting a mage who blinks away and I've lost sight of him. So if he's winding up a spell, deadly throw will turn me exactly in his direction (on the run), interrupt the spell, and allow me to chase after him again with a movement debuff.
Ashwin Mar 20th 2008 11:26AM
During leveling, I feel that keeping slice and dice up all the time, really helps me kill an enemy faster due to improved white damage. I hit slice and dice the moment I get my first combo point and renew it when it finishes, keeping no account of combo points. It's a bit wasteful but seems much faster than stocking points up for eviscerate.
hellshire Mar 20th 2008 11:19AM
Elitist Jerks posted something pertaining to envenom vs rupture awhile ago. It went something like rupture only underperforms envenom if you have less then x amount of AP. If I remember correctly, the amount of AP required was so low every half way decent rogue should have surpassed it.
For the most part, don't bother envenoming. Letting a stack of deadly run it's course is better then the possibility of a big crit.
Farrell Mar 20th 2008 12:44PM
Besides, all going right, once you get your 5-point DP on the boss, it should never come off.
Using timers, if I see it getting too low, I'll just pop a shiv to make sure it's kept on. I'm sure the energy cost of a single shiv is worth more than the lost damage of having to have 5 DPs reapply
Jim Mar 20th 2008 11:50AM
A lot of farmed mobs give a little "screw you" DOT right before they die that messes up the CS-SnD-Evis farming routine, and Kidney Shot is pretty helpful for that. A good example of this is the Flayers and Netherskates any Netherwing repper has killed a million times. If you throw in a 2 pt KS at the end before they can DoT it allows you to drop into stealth immediately instead of waiting it out or wasting cloak of shadows.
KS is also great for any high damage farm mobs, and is invaluable in some heroic situations where you have a 2nd mob that can't be CC'd, like in SV.
phan Mar 20th 2008 11:49AM
Envenom is awesome with Muti build, when you have the 20% increase. It eats all those high armor/hp enemies, and has worked fairly well for me in pve, usually on top of 5-10 man groups. You do however need to know how to play, and with that in mind, most people play diff. chars. It takes a while to really understand and learn your class well. If you know the rogue class well, you probably love envenom.
shoemanchris Mar 20th 2008 12:06PM
I agree with Ash, first point hit SnD. Get Slice Watcher, it takes the decision making out of when to drop the next SnD...so spank the combos in and decide. Kara boss fights are a pain for non viability of rupture so I am going to experiment with Envenom, and as a n00b to arena I am fascinated by the idea of Deadly Throw, so thanks for the tip
Charlie Taylor Mar 20th 2008 12:05PM
I recently respecced to get the Vile Poisons envenom/poison damage, and switched my Eviscerate and Envenom keys (keeping the Eviscerate key handy for poison-immune mobs) and discovered that I could get a 4K CRIT! I have NEVER gotten that high with Eviscerate and I am SOLD! Not only are my max crits higher but I can get a consistant 1-1.5K crit from a three or four point Envenom, handy when a mob is going down quick and I can't get enough combo points up before it dies.
It's sad that Sinister Strike gets consistently higher crits than Eviscerate, that really shows you how broken this finishing move is.
That being said, I'm guessing Blizz started introducing Armor Penetration to help Eviscerate scale more as you get better gear. I don't think it's enough of a change to mitigate the fact that it scales so terribly.
Also, you forgot to mention that Mechanicals are immune to poisons as well.
Milktub Mar 20th 2008 12:20PM
I haven't played my rogue since the 2.3 patch (except for a quick tour of heroic slabs). But I was a lackluster rouge in 5-mans until I started doing 3 things:
#1: Using SnD. I never understood why it's better to swing faster than have a couple thousand points of damage in one big boom. Then I "got it".
#2: Using Rupture. Again, you spend so much time as a rogue drooling over "OMG, 6k ambush!" that turning 5 combo points into a slow and steady DoT instead of a big Evicerate seems like a waste. Then I "got it" there too.
#3: Using Envenom. But only using it to kill kill kill.
Khanmora Mar 20th 2008 12:25PM
Keep in mind with 2.4 many elemental and undead mobs are being changed and made vulnerable to bleeds and poisons. This means we will finally be able to use rupture in Kara and have a much easier time with getting stacks of deadly up on elementals in SSC, etc.
Evis and vanish were probably the two most mentioned abilities that need fixes in the Rogue forums feedback thread. Hopefully they are being looked at for WotLK.
Charlie Taylor Mar 20th 2008 12:33PM
Also, I just plugged in your formula for Eviscerate and ended up with...
-144?
WTF?
Well, this makes sense because you're subtracting the minimum from the maximum, which is always going to give you a negative number. Also, given that your minimum and maximum are modified in the exact same way you're always going to end up with the same answer, the difference of the minimum and the maximum.
So either this is a new math, or your math is wrong.
Nizari Mar 20th 2008 12:55PM
You're misreading what he's saying, it's not the first formula minus the second. Read that as a dash instead of a minus symbol, as in "Eviscerate does 1000-1500 damage," not "Eviscerate does 1000 minus 1500 damage."
Xiphus Mar 20th 2008 1:17PM
That wasn't a minus sign. Rather, it is a dash sign. You read it the same way you read your weapon damage range.
Wobin Mar 20th 2008 1:05PM
Kidney Shot is also effective in PvE when you need to interrupt casting, or reduce the effect of a enemy buff. One example is in Mechanar. With the giant robots, they have a Charged Fist buff, that normally as a rogue, you try to kick to interrupt the cast, but if you miss, or time it badly, a 5pt KS will stun the 'bot and prevent it from actually -hitting- with the charged fist, and reduce the damage that way.
Jack Spicer Mar 20th 2008 1:15PM
I'm wondering what happens when you have 5 combo points but only 1 stack of Deadly poison on a target when you use Envenom. I notice that all of the combo points disappear, but are you getting a ridiculously reduced attack because the poison stacking wasn't there?
I know that in the reverse case, 1 combo point, 5 stacks of Deadly poison, if you use envenom it burns the combo point, but only removes 1 stack of the poison.
I think its also worth pointing out that I like to use Envenom when fighting a group of multiple mobs, because Envenom won't blow all of my energy like Evicerate will, especially if I'm only using it cause the mobs about to die.
YPEELS40 Mar 20th 2008 2:21PM
Envenom and eviscerate use the same amount of energy. And when you use envenom with more combo points than deadly poisons, it just does the damage of what the # of deadly poisons stacks you had and throws out the other combo points
hosehead Mar 20th 2008 2:40PM
I would recommend to those who are thinking envenom is a waste - to try to match an even number of combo points vs. an even number of DP's. That is, try to use EV when CB and DP are at 2, or both @ 3, or both @ 4, or both @ 5, etc.. for maximum envenomability.
Jack Spicer Mar 20th 2008 8:57PM
I think I have been, for some time, confusing Eviscerate and the Feral Druid Ferocious Bite. That's why I was thinking that Eviscerate consumed all of your energy regardless of cost - which it doesn't.
dan Mar 20th 2008 2:32PM
Expose armor is still a no-no if you have a warrior OT as well.