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3-23-2008 @ 7:09PM
You missed a big one. Defense increases the chance you dodge, parry, block, and are MISSED by 0.04. That means every point of defense skill nets you 0.12% avoidance and 0.04% mitigation through block. This makes defense rating a very close second to doge rating as the most valuable avoidance stat. It blows away parry rating. Although point-for-point of percentage parry is better than defense, the item cost for parry rating is much much higher.Diminishing return is a really bad way to describe defense. Defense is the most valuable stat you can stack pre-490 but (as explained above) is still very valuable post-490. Instead of the hamburger analogy imagine oranges on a deserted island. You'd need a single orange or less a day to avoid scurvy (crits). However, once you've passed that mark the oranges would still be incredibly valuable as a source of food, water, and other nutrients (dodge/parry/miss). If you took your second chart and made the Y axis point-system-of-your-choice and the X axis as defense skill you'd really see a straight line from 0 to 490, a small dip, then another straight line all the way through the amount of defense it'd take you to hit 100% avoidance (enragable bosses may not apply, blah blah).Bottom line is if you're exchanging gear with defense skill in a pure tank set for gear with parry/AP/hit/etc, you're doing it wrong.P.S. Not be a grammar snob but it's "losing" not "loosing".
3-23-2008 @ 7:29PM
Hi Almighty Bob,I think we're more or less saying the same thing. Defense is not, point for point, better than parry as you say - and thus is not a stackable stat when it comes to crafting an avoidance set. This is through practical experience as well as hard theoretical fact. I have a avoidance set, and not one gem or enchant is defense orientated. While I think it is possible, of course, to put a lot of defense up - somewhere in the range of 600 - and reach the necessar avoidance numbers, it's not something that is advisable to do. Even with a mixture of other stats pushing that much defense just doesn't make theoretical sense. Other stats simply offer better returns.I don't think I've ever said it's good to exchange defense gear for parry/dodge/block/hit/etc. gear. That would be the wrong thing to do. However at the point where it becomes acceptable, as long as it doesn't gimp unnecessarily your other stats, is when you have 490 defense. Which is what the point of this article was about - that there is a cap. An example of this would be the Zul'aman shield in exchange for the Gruul shield (ZA has no +def, Gruul does).Re: Misses. My intention was not to make this an exhaustive guide to defense. Explaining misses and their relation to tanking is another 1500+ word article. It also doesn't factor into the existence of the practical 490 cap.Best,Adam.
3-23-2008 @ 7:55PM
Defense IS point for point better than parry. Lets say you're going uncrushable and for some reason can only choose +10 parry rating or +10 defense rating gems. +10 parry = 0.42% parry rating. +10 defense = 1.6% combined towards dodge/parry/block/miss. So in for an uncrush set defense is nearly FOUR TIMES better than parry. Please post the math if you can disprove that. I'm not saying the road to uncrushable is stacking defense gems, but it sure beats parry.It's important to consider item level cost too. If you get the 23 parry rating to hit 1% parry on a piece of gear, you're sacrificing a huge chunk of other stats due to the internal cost associated to parry. On the other hand, 1% combined dodge/parry/block/miss of defense you'd need is about 14 defense rating. This is a much cheaper stat to stack on an item. Dodge and block rating on the other hand, ARE better than defense rating all around as stackable stats to hit uncrushable.Again, defense rating is just plain not a diminishing return. You're implying a parabolic curve when it's really step based. It drops a bit in value at 490, again at uncrushable, then is finally theoretically capped when total avoidance (block% doesn't count) hits 100% across all gear. As a matter of fact, it drops a bit after 490 then curves UPWARDS towards uncrushable. If a player has 0% avoidance and adds 1%, he takes 1% less damage. A player at 50% avoidance who adds 1% is taking 2% less damage and so on.
3-23-2008 @ 8:03PM
For mitigation, you're correct. If that's what you're going for - but again, do you have your avoidance set gemmed like that?Probably not - because for dodge and parry - it doesn't do as much. It's better to gem for those two than for defense. This is all a bit off topic, since what the article is about is that at 490 defense, it's best to stop worrying about how much defense you have - and start focusing on stats like stamina and block value.Crafting an avoidance set is a whole 'nother animal. One that I'll perhaps take up next weekend. I look forward to your comments on it. :-)
3-23-2008 @ 8:11PM
Don't forget miss 8). BTW, changing "It also increases your chance to dodge, block, and parry by 0.04%." to "It also increases your chance to dodge, block, parry, and chance to be missed by 0.04%." adds 4 words to the article, not 1500.It's, really, really not better to gem for Parry for a tank ever. Gemming for dodge and defense that they're nearly interchangable. While dodge is the better pure avoidance set, the block rating from defense beats dodge for an uncrushable set, allowing you to share pieces between the two. Mixing them up also allows you to hit tanking related socket bonuses.
3-23-2008 @ 8:16PM
I'm generally against updating articles... however I'm going to capitulate here add miss, noting that a further article will be added concerning that statistic later on for completeness.My point with that is, and I'm sure you'll agree, is that miss is a rarely understood subject - one that will generate mounds of "wtfismisszomglolcat" posts unless it's backed up by a discussion of it's own (off topic, another article...)Nice discussion here =)- Adam
3-24-2008 @ 6:27PM
One problem here Bob:AlmtyBob said..."Defense IS point for point better than parry. Lets say you're going uncrushable and for some reason can only choose +10 parry rating or +10 defense rating gems. +10 parry = 0.42% parry rating. +10 defense = 1.6% combined towards dodge/parry/block/miss. So in for an uncrush set defense is nearly FOUR TIMES better than parry. Please post the math if you can disprove that. I'm not saying the road to uncrushable is stacking defense gems, but it sure beats parry."- Looks like you're not converting defense rating into defense skill before you're doing your conversion into avoidance. It's not 1 defense rating = 0.16 combined mititgation, that would be too powerful. It's 1 defense skill. Defense rating turns into skill according to Defense Rating / 2.36 = Defense Skill. So, your +10 defense rating gem = 4 Defense skill. 4 * 0.16 avoidance / skill = 0.64 combined mitigation.Meanwhile, dodge rating -> skill conversion is rating / 18.9 = skill. So, your +10 Dodge gem = .53 avoidance.Parry is Rating / 31.5. So +10 Parry rating = .32 parry skill.So defense is twice as good as parry, and slightly better than pure dodge. Like many tanks I was sad to see such a lack of defense on the 2.4 badge gear, being a pally tank I walk the line on uncrushability already.
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