Exploit or not?
by Matthew Rossi 
Mar 26th 2008 at 2:00PM
I was scanning the internets for my nefarious purposes (I was bored. Yes, nefarious boredom.) when I came upon this thread in the Dungeons and Raids forum. While the discussion is not particularly polite, it seems poster Selenae of Mannoroth would like to know if a particular method of killing Archimonde is considered an exploit or not. From watching the video and reading the various posts, it seems that the method in question is to cluster on a hilltop in order to avoid having to deal with Doomfires. Now, I'm not sure if it means that they get Air Bursted more this way or not... to be honest, I could barely watch the video, the cluttered UI made my eyes hurt.
Some posters seem to be of the opinion that this is 'cheesing' the encounter, while others compare it to ducking behind the pillars on Talon King Ikiss or ducking below the water to avoid spouts on The Lurker Below. So i put it to you, dear readers: when is terrain use 'creative use of game mechanics' and when is it an exploit? In the case of the Archimonde encounter, is not having to worry about the fear/doomfire combination really that big a deal? Or is the exploit inherent in the removal of the doomfire from the encounter entirely? Go ahead, discuss, mix it up, the comments await you.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Cheats, Bosses, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Dakira Mar 26th 2008 2:06PM
IMHO its just tactics... not really an exploit.
Our guild is still in Kara and we have trouble with the prince. We tried the "safe zone" exploit and still couldn't do it. Props to those who can!
Lightsear Mar 26th 2008 2:18PM
If you're using the terrain it's not an exploit. If you're using the Terrain and Blizz patches it later, it is. *shrug*
In the end it's the view of Big Daddy Blizz as to whether its and exploit or not. If you downed the boss the hard way, good for you -- it's a testament to your prowess as players and teamwork. If you scout about and find a way to make the fight easier, that's a display of cunning and intellect.
If you bitch about having to do it the hard way, then bitch about others doing it the smart way -- you're an idiot. Combat tactics have taken terrain into account literally for millenia. The defenders with the high ground always have some advantage. While I don't consider those who do it the hard way morons -- those that berate others for finding a better way are.
Yeng Mar 26th 2008 2:20PM
From what I hear, Blizz has already put up the infamous 'invisible walls' to prevent this.
Replex Mar 26th 2008 2:19PM
I have done it both ways, my last guild did it using the hillside... honestly the reason we had to do this was to handicap the fight for having bad healers. Having competent players I find doing it the 'real' way far easier.
Using the Hill you get air bursted half of the fight. So much running back, and it kills DPS, we pushed close to the 10 minute enrage timer each time we did it that way.
Evean Mar 26th 2008 2:33PM
Its like the first big boss in Mech. Ive never been in a group who didnt tank him on the stairs as to avoid the bombs that float all along the ground. Is that an exploit?
Erika Mar 26th 2008 2:31PM
Well if thats exploiting so is getting on the stairs in mech.
Baz Mar 26th 2008 2:33PM
Yep, blizzard put up an invisible wall on this hill, sucks for the guilds who were using this cheap way to get him down :p
Iramel Mar 26th 2008 2:33PM
Was Malfurion using an exploit when he used all those wisps to defeat Achimonde the first time? Or was it just a clever use of game mechanics?
Max Mar 26th 2008 2:39PM
lol...nice
Garter89 Mar 26th 2008 2:56PM
If it's intended by Blizzard for a fight to be done a certain way, it's not an exploit (such as ducking in the water on Lurker because if you couldn't, the entire raid would die). If it wasn't intended, but Blizzard doesn't care that people are doing a fight a way they had never thought of, it's not an exploit. If it's something Blizzard is working on patching or already patched, it's an exploit.
JMS Mar 26th 2008 4:13PM
I /lol at the guilds who have only killed him using the hillside. Good luck with those future Archimonde kills!
Wolfkin Mar 26th 2008 3:03PM
I think that way too many people are throwing around the word "exploit" here. Let's be honest, clustering on the hillside is not even in the same ballpark as MC'ing tempest-smiths to put down Lootreaver in less than 60 seconds. THAT is an exploit.
Ultimately though, does it cheapen the accomplishment? Of course it does. You didn't face the boss the way he was intended to be confronted by the game designers. I think that people who beat Prince, or Nightbane in the early days as another example, know that even though they're "killing" the boss, they're not "beating" him, and that's why these people get aggressive on the forums towards those who impugn the validity of their accomplishments.
Do it the easy way, get the loot, but get it faster. Do it the right way, get the loot *and* the respect. It's as simple as that. There's plusses and minuses to both.
Wolfkin Mar 26th 2008 3:08PM
That was meant to read "...Prince, or Nightbane in the early days as another example, [using the hallway 'exploits']..."
rick gregory Mar 26th 2008 4:49PM
I see what you're saying, but even the VR tactic wasn't an exploit to me and neither was this.
What both are are perfectly legal uses of the way the encounter works. You can enslave mobs and kill VR? Guess what - that's what people do in Mech on the minibosses. It's natural to try it out and see if it works. Same thing on the Archimonde encounter - hmm there's a hill there. Let's try to use it!
It's fine for Blizz to disallow each case - but they can't say "we intended X" and then leave loopholes like this. Or rather they can, but they can't scream 'exploit!!' when people use the tools given to them. Either you knew about those mechanics and left them in or you didn't test those cases and missed them.
Nosophoros Mar 26th 2008 3:03PM
I don't know if the subject is related to the drama case in this week's guildwatch, but if it is, then this is my take on it: whether it's a real exploit (i.e. a bannable offence) or not is up to Blizzard. I've heard both ways by now (the topic from the guildwatch drama thingy had someone saying they got a GM to confirm it's not an exploit but apparently Blizz did put in invisible walls after all) but that's not really important any more. If you ask me, it could be compared to (for lack of a better comparison) a match of multiplayer Halo 2.
Anyone who played that game with some friends (or worse yet, online) probably knows about the horrible combination of using a Plasma Pistol with any other weapon (even your bare fists work, your opponent still requires a considerable amount of skill to counter that combination due to the fact that it's kind of an insta-cripple). Is that 'legit'? Sure. Is it 'smart use of game mechanics'? I would say it is. Is it horribly cheap? You bet, and it's damn frustrating to boot.
Now, I'm fairly certain Archimonde won't 'mind' this, per se, because he's not a real human being and can't be frustrated. It's not like he'll be pulling out his hair in anger because some n00bs pwned him teh hardzorz with cheep taktix and stole his loots. It boils down to a matter of morals at that point: you use an oversight, as it were, to make a fight which is supposed to be bloody hard (as far as WoW standards go) and turn it into something considerably easier for the sake of what used to be, up until last Tuesday [2.4, Sunwell Plateau], the phattest loot evar. After all, Doomfire and Airburst are kind of his signature moves (Fear -> Doomfire -> Soul Charge -> kthxbai, not to mention Airburst's horribly small window of popping that 1-second slowfall). Take them out and all you have is a guy hitting like a train. Sure, that doesn't make him easy by any means, but it sure makes him far less hard than he's supposed to be. It IS cheap, no matter what excuses you make up for yourself. So is putting yourself on the stairs in Mechanar to avoid bombs, and anything else you might come up with. There's no denying that - if you say so otherwise you're just lying to yourself.
Still, doing this is a victimless crime. You don't harm anyone. It's like using cheat codes in a singleplayer game. The only difference is that here, you might be doing something which could be considered unfair to players who did it the way you're supposed to do it, but that's a whole different topic.
Which brings me back to what I started this horrific wall of text with: is it related to the guildwatch thingy? If it is, then I would say it's kind of pathetic. If you're competing for those server firsts or whatever they were doing, then it's sad to see people using tricks like these to gain an advantage over others. On the other hand, if it wasn't, then hey, who's stopping them (apart from those new invisible walls, apparently)? If a guild wants to 'cheat' to get epics faster, then hey, fine by me. Go right ahead; it's your World of Warcraft too, right?
BFail1987 Mar 26th 2008 3:11PM
As far as "exploits" it sounds like standing on a hill, is a tactic. I mean it seems like good sense, even though that does not always apply in wow
Lysy Mar 26th 2008 3:23PM
Apparently Blizzard didn't approve, hence the invisible walls, therefore, its not the way to do it. I think the main reason people are complaining is progression. Why be compared to guilds that do things they way they are supposed to be done when you're doing them the easy way?
How does avoiding the mechanics of a boss better your teamwork/playing skills?
I'd like to see if that guildwatch guild can actually do it the normal way. Should be interesting =]
Jasperwind Mar 26th 2008 3:31PM
Work smarter, not harder. ;)
Chai Mar 31st 2008 3:55PM
My guild has killed him both ways, and to be honest there is no exploit about the hill method. To do it smartly you put 3 separate groups up there, and 2 melee groups with a decurser on the ground.. it's no different than spreading out on the ground to ensure only 1 group gets airbursted. You don't get bursted more than any other strategy, and doomfire can still hit all 3 groups. We even got confirmation from a GM that is wasn't an exploit because all his abilities could still hit you. The only benefit to this tactic was that the doomfires had to go around to get up the hill. So if an ability can still hit you, and you still have to watch/avoid it.. it's not an exploit.
Hulkimania Mar 26th 2008 4:01PM
Proper tactics involve using the terrain (or other feature) to legitimately avoid someone elses tactics. I.E. using an armoured personnel carrier to avoid snipers. Using terrain to your advantage in a game cuz the programmers forgot to program the snipers to look in that direction is an exploit.
There are very few LEGIT times where terrain is usable as tactics in WOW. It WOULD be AWESOME to see some... i.e. arrows go further when shot downhill than uphill... Based on real world physics.. Would that aply to spells? I think not (as they have a reason for not going further that is not based on gravity - i.e. they fizzle out at distance.. downhill makes no diff (which stinks as my main is a mage)) This gives players a reason to take a hill. Makes no sense to use the hill if the range is the same for those at the bottom and the top.. This may not be the most practical thing for instances, but how awesome would it be in the WotLK BG?