Are we the bad guys of Azeroth?
After publishing a recent Breakfast Topic on whether there should be a sense of personal honor in PvP, I wasn't really all that surprised to see a few comments echoing the sentiments of "If it's red, it's dead" and "Don't roll on a PvP server if you don't want to get ganked." These crop up in any discussion about PvP, and while there's an undeniable sense to them -- why would you roll on a PvP realm unless you wanted to, I dunno, PvP? -- I've always felt that they did actual PvP a disservice. You can't frame ganking as true PvP. There's no such thing as strategy, skill, or even combat when a player one-shots another, so I've never considered ganking to be defensible along the same lines that actual PvP is.But that just made me think about legitimate ways that people defend world PvP occurring under fairer circumstances. According to existing lore, the Horde and the Alliance more or less operate under the terms of an informal and at times uncomfortable truce. The lore justifies battlegrounds in the sense that the Silverwing Sentinels versus the Warsong Outriders (for example) aren't operating under the official auspices of their respective factions; the clashes are understood to be quarrels between sub-groups. But you can make a pretty strong case that as long as these quarrels are being actively fought, no true peace between the Horde and the Alliance is possible. Any negotiation or discussion is bound to deteriorate into a never-ending litany of "But (your sub-group) is still attacking (my sub-group)!" Clashes between individual players are likely to be considered the same way ("I know what you did in Nagrand last summer!"). You can't swing a dead cat in the world today without hitting a long-running intranational, international, or interstate feud being continued by people who absolutely will not back off an old grudge, and that's the lens through which I tend to view most world PvP and battlegrounds. All very well and good, but in the end both factions face significantly more danger from the Burning Legion and the Scourge than they do from each other.
Assuming we're all still in it for the fun of PvP (and, well, the gear), this is pretty much just a mental exercise, but it's interesting to consider that player-characters are, lore-wise, among the primary contributors (rather than the primary responders) to the friction between the Horde and the Alliance.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, PvP, Lore, Factions, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Madcow Apr 2nd 2008 3:42PM
Yes please be a jerk! Please gank as many lowbies as possible! While I do agree that being a gear'd 70 and killing 20 somethings doesn't require any skill here are some reasons to continue to do it.
1. Ganking is a rite of passage. On a pvp server your level grind is always going to be interrupted by bastards higher than you that gank you for no reason. You learn to become better for it. Learning flight skills to get away or ways to quest in less traffic areas. This is a hazing ritual that needs to be passed down to our younger lvling counterparts.
2. Ganking CREATES world pvp. This is the biggest reason to continue to gank lowbies. With BG rewards being such strong motivators virtually nobody world pvps anymore. Corpse camping those 3 level 24s is the only way to start shit. Eventually higher levels come to aid those being ganked/corpse camped. And when those higher levels come and kill you then you need to call in more higher levels and it just escalates, that has ALWAYS been the awesomeness of WoW PVP.
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 3:48PM
Your number one there is, frankly, stupid. Hazing is bullshit wherever it occurs, and the fact that you hold it as an admirable thing doesn't say particularly good things about you.
Your second point is true, which is precisely why I never call in help when I get ganked on a lowbie, nor do I return with a bigger character. If someone's trying to ruin my fun in order to get theirs, I might as well return the favor.
iKandiman Apr 2nd 2008 4:00PM
"Ganking is a rite of passage. On a pvp server your level grind is always going to be interrupted by bastards higher than you that gank you for no reason. You learn to become better for it. Learning flight skills to get away or ways to quest in less traffic areas. This is a hazing ritual that needs to be passed down to our younger lvling counterparts."
Hazing is wrong, and has often resulted in fatalities, both in the military and without. It repeats the cycle of abuse and so long as the mentality of "It was done to me, so I need to do it to someone else" mentality exists, we will never change and evolve. We get enough of that in real life- we need to bring that into a virtual world and pollute it as well?
It's a game, and we all know the rules and TOC going in, but do you make your game experience better by making someone else's time in game worse/ more frustrating?
I played a mmorp where pvp was the law, not the exeption and everyone was ok with it except for gankers/pk'ers. We had special hit squads that would log on and hunt them down in retribution. For real pvp it was siege warfare and gains were made terrritorially- more territory, better vendors, better gear=server dominance. Strategy based pvp ftw. Too bad the game experience/cm's stopped giving a crap.
It is counter productive to the game en toto- people will give up on the pvp servers in frustration, those pvp'ers ganksters will get sick of not getting hp from the 500th kill of the same person and quit WoW. So who wins?
doyesac Apr 2nd 2008 6:29PM
I'm gonna defend Madcow. Cow's second point is kinda right -- often, gankers gank because it brings out the opposing 70s and then the real fun starts. It's like the Alliance raiding the XRoads: just a way to start an impromptu battle.
MAdcow's first point is right too -- IF you keep in mind the difference between ganking and griefing. Ganking is just killing a player that is grey to you. Griefing is... well, we all know what it is. Griefers got a cog loose in their heads. They just ain't right. No one can reasonably defend griefers.
But the first time a random ?? came by, dismounted, blew me up, and then remount to ride away --- I grew eyes in the back of my head. And those eyes have won me a fair number of fights where otherwise I would have been jumped from behind. I learned to see the whole environment around me, to pick my spots for grinding and farming, keep in mind where my escape routes are. Getting ganked HAS made me a better, more attentive player.
Heck -- my new-found paranoia has helped me keep my Warrior shouts up, since Demoralizing Shout drops rogues and druids out of stealth. I start every fight with one, and more than once I've found a sneaky rogue (or two, once three!) because of it.
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 11:45PM
So, if a same level character had run up behind you and killed you by virtue of getting the opening rounds off, you wouldn't have learned a lesson?
iKandiman Apr 2nd 2008 3:44PM
Ganking and PK'ing griefing are the fart joke set of mmorps They take no skill. When a higher (+10) level player targets a lowbie. It's the same in PVE when you farm mobs that are rey- you get no xp for that reason. No challenge. It's weaksauce playing. Dueling/pvp'ing someone in your level range is a lot more fun. All boils down to level of maturity and sportsmanship. Personally, i think they should re-institute the honor penalty for someone way under your level.
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 3:54PM
I think they should just create an exponential, through-death debuff for it. Kill one lowbie, get a 5% debuff to everything, just like rez sickness, for five minutes. Kill another within 5 minutes, it's 10% for 10 minutes, and so on, until it's 90% for 1.5 hours.
Lizardking63 Apr 2nd 2008 3:47PM
I have played both sides and in my experience, the horde are more apt to gank than Alliance. I usually don't try to gank as I have code of honor about attacking characters much lower than me, or attacking someone that is engaged with a mob. However, most Horde players don't seem to have such honor. My theory is that it is a product of their upbringing. Whenever a child is abused by a parent, a Horde Ganker is born.
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 3:56PM
I think you're looking at it with rose-colored glasses there. I play Horde on a PvP server, and I've been ganked by the Alliance on there plenty of times. I'm sure it happens Horde-on-Alliance as well, but I rarely see it happens, specifically because I mostly see the Horde side of things. I suspect the same thing is happening with you.
Harmun Apr 2nd 2008 4:38PM
I should consider myself a punisher of bad children then ;)
I tend to agree with you though. Most people playing horde like being a bad guy- that's what their lore and environment themes lead to. Alliance is the stereotypical "good guys", horde the "bad guys", and I've never heard of an alliance toon teabagging (counterstrike style "I beat you" taunt) their victim.
One thing that annoys me though is the rampant defeatist attitude toward pvp I hear from most alliance players. That's why it's my personal mission to get the horde in my server to start complaining about how frustrating it is leveling with all of the cheap, lame, childish alliance gankers around.
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 4:51PM
Harmun: you have now heard of an Alliance toon teabagging a horde toon. Maybe every five fights or so, particularly the ones where it's ganking, an Alliance has done so to my toon. I've played on both sides, and neither one has a lock on bad behavior.
Oblivion Apr 2nd 2008 3:55PM
"...it's interesting to consider that player-characters are, lore-wise, among the primary contributors (rather than the primary responders) to the friction between the Horde and the Alliance.
That is an interesting point. As far as the World of Warcraft lore is concerned, the Horde and Alliance are very often in a truce-like state. They joined forces in a war effort against the Qiraji. There was an Orc representative in Ironforge and a Dwarf representative in Ogrimmar during that time. And outside of the Azeroth capital cities, the battlegrounds, and a handful of lower level instances, both Alliance and Horde build reputation with the same factions and fight the same dungeon bosses. So, they really are working together quite a bit--even if it's being done in a sort of parallel fashion.
I would agree that the Horde and Alliance are largely at "war" because of PvP, and that is unfortunate in my opinion. It just further illustrates that the two factions are becoming more and more homogenized, which is too bad for the player. I really think Blizzard has to look closely at the Horde/Alliance relationship prior to releasing Wraith of the Lich King. While it is obvious that both factions will be at war with Arthas and the Scourge, it would be nice if we could stage that war from two separate cities with different points of view. I'm really not looking forward to Dalaraan (Shattrath 2.0) being a joint capital. I think they need to get back to the Horde/Alliance separation that was more prevalent in old world Azeroth (particularly the lower levels).
windex Apr 2nd 2008 4:20PM
If i see a low level horde on my way somewhere, chances are I will mess with him or kill him. For one main reason:
I don't like horde.
I'm not flexing or showing off skills. I am killing you because you are horde. I do the same thing if I see a level 70. This is a video game, and I play it to kill things, not build a caring and functional society. Horde ranks up high on those things I like to kill.
There are a couple pro-ganking arguments to make though.
1. There is no reason for anyone on a pvp server to not expect to be killed. If you think there is an unspoken bond between horde and alliance that allows you to quest in harmony, then you shouldn't be on a PVP server. There is no truce. By ganking lower level characters, you assure they don't think they are playing World of Carebears.
2. Protect our lowbies! Horde in STV or tanaris or another equally contested area, i'll help out the cause and kill some horde. Although you could argue this will just anger them and make them attack lowbie alliance that they wouldn't have attacked otherwise... in fact they more than likely will do just that. Good thing or bad? Up to you, the one getting killed.
3. I'm not ganking out of revenge, but I certainly want the horde to reach level 70 with a fighting attitude looking for revenge!
I am against camping because it really isn't much fun for either party. If I initiate a fight, i will kill them and continue on my way or continue whatever I am doing.
To be honest, I much prefer ganking solo 70's over lowbies, but I'm not going to run by, smile and wave just because you are a low level.
doyesac Apr 2nd 2008 5:22PM
2 quick points:
First, I don't see how this is a response to the post above you. What exactly were you replying to in Oblivion's post?
Second, you can't gank a fellow 70. You can kill em, camp em, annoy em, fight em, make em cry, grief em -- all sorts of things. But you can only 'gank' a player that is grayed out (and so honorless to you).
Charlie Apr 2nd 2008 4:22PM
Ironically, most of the PC are some of the meanest characters in game. Killing for no apparent reason, just for the sake of killing.
Obviously thats because its a game, and not real life. But I do not know many 'good' NPCs ally or horde side that would do what the PC do if they had the option... or could think Oo.
DavidC Apr 2nd 2008 4:30PM
Lawlz at everyone that says: Ganking is not True PvP.
You don't have a leg to stand on. WoW PvP is not TRUE PvP.
In WoW, PvP is a "rule set" that says when not in a "safe zone" the other players can attack / kill you. In WoW that is *all* PvP is / means ... period ... get over it.
Even one-on-one PvP is not TRUE PvP in WoW unless both players are of the same class and same gear level, which amounts to dueling outside of Org / IF ... which is not TRUE PvP either.
In WoW ... Ganking = PvP ... period. If you don't want to be ganked, roll on a PvE server, it's as simple as that.
Thaelus Apr 2nd 2008 4:35PM
I play on an RP-PvP server and I feel these servers do allow for legitimized gankings. I know people whose entire guilds will declare that they are at war with the opposing faction because (enter RP motivational story here). Its a lot of fun going along with them and eventually the war terms are dropped so its not like they are running around ruining the experience of lowbies. Its just that their experience is calling for them to kill without question for a bit before more peaceful times are to come.
Jeremy Cox Apr 2nd 2008 5:32PM
I think Blizzard is self-contradictory on the subject of ganking. They are often quoted as saying (something like), “We want our players to experience constant sense of danger about the world in the PvP experience.”
They also have officially stated that they learned hellfire peninsula, putting substantial Global PvP in a leveling zone was a mistake.
And let’s not get into the laughable glaring contradiction that is the existence of the Zul Aman summoning stone guards.
I signed up for a PvP server when the game launched for two reasons 1) my friends wanted to and 2) Blizzard was promising a dishonor system in an upcoming patch. I figured I didn’t care as long as people were discouraged from ganking.
Why don’t I switch? Because I spent way too much time on my character to abandone it, and now it costs lots of money to transfer all my toons.
Many have argued against dishonor systems, and say they will never work. IMO, that is simply an excuse. Hard doesn’t mean impossible. Even a system that tracked dishonor and had no punitive game mechanics would allow some sense of balance. This would enable other players to see how disreputable a character is against one’s own faction and administer a sort of kill on sight justice system.
And before you PvP fanboys get your panties in a twist by saying a dishonor system doesn’t make any sense: it makes more sense than the honor system. The honor system supposedly awards players with by endangering a lose peace treaty by killing characters of another faction. I don’t know that this behavior makes you a hero. More like someone not to be trusted. On the flip side, it makes perfect sense that the opposing side, which you victimize, would give you quite the reputation as a flagrant dishonorable murderer.
I think Blizzard should make zones of peace for PvE purposes on PvP realms, which would include summoning stones. These would function just like Shattrath… you can’t attack in the city. I can’t tell you how many times I have died on Isle of Quel’Danas misclicking a quest giver. Blizzard needs to fess up and admit they made a mistake. The existence of the Zul Aman guards proves things can go so far that a programming band-aid is needed. Furthermore, I should say Global PvP once had a place in WoW, when there was no other PvP to do. Now it is an archaic dinosaur left behind. Blizzard, move on and evolve.
Algorithm Apr 2nd 2008 5:02PM
I did the same thing as you. I rolled PvP to be with friends who wanted to PvP at a time where world PvP was the only option.
The issue with dishonorable kills is:
1) It is impossible, from a functional standpoint to identify when and what a dishonorable kill, or when a player is acting dishonorably. Players can't even agree.
2) Making it so your actions in game have negative, irreversible repercussions is a terrible road to go on. It's against everything else in the game. Imagine if PvP made you lose your gear. Encouraging PvP means: you can't punish losers or winners
drakegw Apr 2nd 2008 5:11PM
We already have rez sickness, just add in dishonorable kill penalty. Any time you kill an opposing faction player who sees you as a skull (make it killing blow, whatever) you get a stacking, persists-through-death, hour long debuff that increases damage done to you by the opposing faction by 25%
On my server there are several notorious horde players who spend their weekends in zones like redridge and stv just ganking lowbies and escaping the 70s. I bet by the time that 70 is getting auto attacked for 2-5k by level 20s, he'll think twice about going after them.