Are we the bad guys of Azeroth?
After publishing a recent Breakfast Topic on whether there should be a sense of personal honor in PvP, I wasn't really all that surprised to see a few comments echoing the sentiments of "If it's red, it's dead" and "Don't roll on a PvP server if you don't want to get ganked." These crop up in any discussion about PvP, and while there's an undeniable sense to them -- why would you roll on a PvP realm unless you wanted to, I dunno, PvP? -- I've always felt that they did actual PvP a disservice. You can't frame ganking as true PvP. There's no such thing as strategy, skill, or even combat when a player one-shots another, so I've never considered ganking to be defensible along the same lines that actual PvP is.But that just made me think about legitimate ways that people defend world PvP occurring under fairer circumstances. According to existing lore, the Horde and the Alliance more or less operate under the terms of an informal and at times uncomfortable truce. The lore justifies battlegrounds in the sense that the Silverwing Sentinels versus the Warsong Outriders (for example) aren't operating under the official auspices of their respective factions; the clashes are understood to be quarrels between sub-groups. But you can make a pretty strong case that as long as these quarrels are being actively fought, no true peace between the Horde and the Alliance is possible. Any negotiation or discussion is bound to deteriorate into a never-ending litany of "But (your sub-group) is still attacking (my sub-group)!" Clashes between individual players are likely to be considered the same way ("I know what you did in Nagrand last summer!"). You can't swing a dead cat in the world today without hitting a long-running intranational, international, or interstate feud being continued by people who absolutely will not back off an old grudge, and that's the lens through which I tend to view most world PvP and battlegrounds. All very well and good, but in the end both factions face significantly more danger from the Burning Legion and the Scourge than they do from each other.
Assuming we're all still in it for the fun of PvP (and, well, the gear), this is pretty much just a mental exercise, but it's interesting to consider that player-characters are, lore-wise, among the primary contributors (rather than the primary responders) to the friction between the Horde and the Alliance.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, PvP, Lore, Factions, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
bloodlight Apr 2nd 2008 5:21PM
it real simple, we have two camps 1 is for honorable level base PvP with no ganking no camping and basic chivalry.
the other a pro ganking side made up of 12 years old and there 40 year equivalents who have been bullied all there lives and now have finally found a way to do reverse that in real life.
broken down to reality thats all it is, well adjusted humans playing a game (non gankers) vs very badly maladjusted humand with severe ego problems (gankers)
And no amount of chest beating by the gankers will do anything but prove my point.
PvP I hate, but if you want it attack some thing that has a chance to fight back. rather than trying to build you broken ego ruin the fun other players. (and yes i rolled on a PVP server)
Zaber Guard Apr 3rd 2008 3:53PM
Well, this may not fit into the discussion, but I have my own set of rules when on my main (UNSF Raiders on Shadowmoon representing!)
I WILL NOT STRIKE FIRST, Unless I am insulted, the target is a previous enemy, or they are harming another player.
This way, any little hordies who are stupid enough to get close to other ally (/cough Tarren Mill) won't be ganked. Also, I try to discourage other players from ganking when I can, like inviting a friend to Duel instead of graveyard camping.
And, Im sorry to advertise here, but I'm doing some work in Shadowmoon. If you need hlp with something, please drop me a PM. thats Zaberguard on Shadowmoon, UNSF Raiders.
Peace
Mister K Apr 2nd 2008 5:03PM
I don't have a problem with ganking, I do it, it happens to me yeah no big deal. The problem most people have with ganking is camping, I have been corpse camped to the point I just have to log off dead because I'm so tired of trying to body hop back to a town. That is what annoys me, but I know theirs nothing to do about it so I just switch characters or go find something else to do for a while.
jaenicoll Apr 3rd 2008 1:35AM
World PvP is a different experience, that's for sure. As someone said before, you definately get an intense sense of the environment when you are questing in contested areas and that is a bonus.
Sadly, Blizzard haven't taken the spirit of PvP and established some rules around it to help define it but seem to have rather focus their energies at Arena PvP.
Personally, I find the whole idea of ganking someone more than 10 levels lower than me quite distateful and dishonorable.
Just because I was ganked the whole way through my leveling doesn't mean that I am going to throw away my personal views about bullying and start doing it as revenge.
Besides, I also happen to feel that revenge perpetuated directly at an individual because a perceived personal crime committed by another of that group far too like the very real issues that have been growing over the years and appear to have become the challenge of our generation(s) to resolve.
Since we have an honor system that rewards succesful killing of opposing faction if they are within a few levels of us, I would love to see Blizzard implement an anti honor system for anyone that ganks toons more than say 5 levels lower than them. Maybe it would have a scaling factor such that the bigger the level gap, the bigger the loss of honor. Of course, this would be negated if the lowbie attacks first.
Personally, I have no issues with it fitting within the lore as the new horde and the alliance are coolling their disputes in the light of the Burning Legion and the Scourge. Especially evident in The Shattered Sun initiative.
Kalnn
Nasgoul Apr 2nd 2008 5:14PM
Well here is another one of these posts. Ganking?? Who ganks???.... I do.
.. and will continue to do so...
In this fight that we are in, my Alliance brothers, there is only one outcome, there is only one path to victory, and that is the dissolution of the horde race alliances and their unconditional surrender, as they bow before us...
If the Horde will not bow.. they must be cut at the knees...
It is our duty... no our honor.. to defend this pure land from these invaders... the goal of the gank is simple... to force the Horde to leave the World and never come back... if you must camp them for hours to do so... it is your duty to do just that...
Until they are forced to leave this world.. and never return.. for fear of the Alliance's brutal might... our job is not finished... fight the good fight my brothers.. and this will end as it must, and was always intended to.. with an Alliance celebration
BitterCupOJoe Apr 2nd 2008 5:47PM
Riiiiight. You do realize this is a game, right?
doyesac Apr 2nd 2008 6:31PM
Sounds like an RP-PvP server will fit you just fine.
Tim Apr 3rd 2008 11:53AM
Anybody ever notice how gankers in WoW like to justify themselves with tripe like this? I live in the Southeast US, and guess what? I hear this bullshit every single day (except replace "Horde" with "Black," "Mexican," or "Jew"). Plenty of people heard it in Germany leading up to and during World War II, as well.
Interesting how hate speech is not allowed in-game, but if it's Alliance-Horde hate speech, it's OK. Seriously, have fun role-playing as Adolf Hitler. Maybe one day your fellow Alliance players will be able to declare war on you for the good of Azeroth!
Hmmm...that would actually be fun...allow RP-PVP players to declare war on specific guilds within their own faction to try to stamp out tyranny and injustice and keep "For the Alliance" from becoming the new "Zieg Heil!"
MechChef Apr 2nd 2008 5:24PM
II don't camp. That's low, even for a rogue. But, this is war in the World of Warcraft. It may not be honorable to murder the weak, but in times of war, honor is irrelevent. If I spare the life of your lowbie, it's because I'm feeling compassion or pity.
War isn't fair, and neither is life. Deal with it, or transfer to a PVE server. I don't like getting murdered either, and I may swear and curse, and try and get revenge. But I don't whine on the forums or here about it. If it bothered me that much, I would transfer. It's that simple.
imtraum Apr 2nd 2008 5:40PM
why would you roll on a PvP realm unless you wanted to, I dunno, PvP?
I dunno, possibly because WoW is a social game and most players have friends that got them into the game...and generally you want to play with your friends? I spent well over a year on a PvP server because of this and hated it.
drew Apr 2nd 2008 6:15PM
I've only played on PvP servers and like many before, am not a ganker although I've been ganked plenty of times. I remember when I was leveling my first toon and I was in my first disputed territory. I was a simple orc shaman leveling in the Stone Talon Mountains. While questing I saw an alliance player for the first time. It was a night elf rogue one level higher than me near windsheer crag. I took a deep breath and tossed out an earthshock as I jumped into the fight. We ended up both dying in the fight, and although we were each just a couple lvl 20ish chumps, it felt like I was part of a bigger conflict and I had done my part in the war.
Now had that first encounter occurred on a PvE realm, I might have waved, danced and gone about my business without practicing the craft of war. I personally have no desire to roll on a PvE server. There are plenty of situations where there is real PvP without the ganking, be it highbie on lowbie or taking out a nearly dead player.
Rydolomo Apr 2nd 2008 7:19PM
I have a mage on a pve server and I rolled a lock on a pvp server to see what it's like.
I got attached to the lock but my first ganking I had was when an orc 60 (preBC) rode past and just swung his sword/axe without stopping like we do to critters sometimes and one shotted me.
I hated the pvp and it's not about fair play, the opposite faction would go about in pairs or more and are 10 or more level above - skull level or ?? so I had no chance.
Also questing became more difficult and frustrating. When my lock reached 60 I mothballed him until paid server transfers became possible and transferred to the same server as my mage.
At the end of the day, I rolled on the wrong server and I leave pvp to those who like that sort of thing. I know that pvp on my pve server is still enormously popular amongst my guildies.
I recall an incident on Illidan server where a horde player died in RL and her guildies held a "funeral" (I forget where) and were ganked by an alliance raid which was thought by many to be in poor taste. My guildies when they learned of it thought it was cool and would have participated if possible. I think opinions are divided on if that's in poor form or just life on a pvp server.
Rydo.
Bodlar Apr 2nd 2008 8:03PM
It sounds like ganking means different things to different people. It's not a real word and does not have a definition. Personally I view ganking as killing a player that is grossly less powerful then you or in the middle of something else when you initiate the fight with them. This isn't about the definition of ganking, but killing players that are less powerful than you. I play on a PvP server so I can fight other players at will in the game. Games aren't about fair fights, they are about destroying your enemy. The game is called World of Warcraft, not World of Playnice. PvP makes the game more of a challenge. Blizzard has an option for those of you that don't enjoy that portion of the game. Go to one of those servers, you can even transfer there now. In game we are at war and I will continue to play as such. Alliance beware on Crushridge ;-).
Tenchan Apr 3rd 2008 1:42AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganking
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gank
Chaaos Apr 2nd 2008 9:05PM
If you are on a pvp server of any kind you better expect to be ganked, it is part of the game; like it or not. Do i like being ganked, not really, do i mind, not really, do i like ganking others, it can be amusing. Imho if you are marked for pvp then you are fair game. When completely bored of farming, grinding, dailies and such, I have enjoyed on several occasions going into a lowbie horde town and just killing every moving thing on both my rogue and hunter. I find it amusing. Im sure the ones getting ganked dont but after 20 or so kills 5-6 70's usually pop up and then its time to go bit not after i at least try and kill a few of them or start sapping them all over the place and pissing them off. Sometime it just a good way to get a good ole brawl going.
Now camping is whole different story. That sucks but i have been on both sides, but i will only camp, if 1) you killed my alt more than once in a 10 min time frame. 2) if someone spits on me which i think is the rudest of all things or if you we have been fighting next to me for awhile and then when some friends come you decide its time to kill me, yes then i will kill the coward you are simply becuase you had to wait for friends to kill me and not at least try and kill me on your own.
ganking/pvp, it part of the game, love it or hate it doesnt matter. Just deal with it.
Shadowink Apr 2nd 2008 10:33PM
"I've never considered ganking to be defensible along the same lines that actual PvP is"
Peplo starting to play the game dont know what real pvp is. Thats pvp for them, well it was pvp for me.
The thing about "gank" is the pay back time.When you find the guy that ganked you for 20 minutes in STV with 40% health fighting a mob... oh man , thats PRICELESS, i dont even think i just jump him in no time. No epic in the World ... (of warcraft) will make you feel better =).
After you reach 70, its another history tho. Some places (for me) are "holy". I never , never, pvp inside the NW mines, IoQD , Throne of QJ... and the reason is simple: i wanna leave the place ASAP and if i start a fight inside the mines ill never be able to finish the quests there =/. But if some1 kills me there i wont QQ , ill rez, drink and ... payback time =).
Also , ill NEVER atk you if you wave and ill help you kill a mob if you /hug =D. But after some "fake waves" (ppl wave then atk me ) Im thinking about "red = dead" =/, after all we are in a PvP server.
Pavid Apr 3rd 2008 2:46AM
High levels ganking lowbies isn't PvP. It's just nerds trying to blow off steam over having a pathetic personal life. It should be banned in my opinion. If someone is 10 levels below you then you shouldn't be able to attack them. They should simply be immune to your attacks and vice versa.
Deiwos Apr 3rd 2008 3:10AM
On my server, Tichondrius I play Alliance with a number of alts I've levelled up there. There are places where there is -always- ganking going on from the Horde side, in one of two ways:
Either 70s wandering around looking for lowbies to gank, or a 70 escorting a lowbie and doing all the work for them, while killing any Alliance that comes near them.
Now, I -love- playing a PvP server. Knowing someone could come fight you at any moment, with a chance to fight back, makes playing so much more exciting than on a PvE server. But to be killed over and over again for no reason by a 70 who is bored is bullshit. And the reason, 'It brings out other 70s to properly PvP with' is bullshit too, because in every instance I've seen Alliance 70s coming out to help, the gankers have all scattered until the Alliance guys leave.
Once, my first character was in Badlands farming Elemental Earths for money to get his mount, and was ganked by 50-60s riding past so much that for months afterwards whenever I heard the dismount sound I got a chill RL, because while in Badlands hearing that meant I was just about to be ganked. But of course it's stupid to think that there aren't asshats on the internet who'd get a kick out of causing that for someone. :P
Bunky Apr 6th 2008 7:17PM
Ganking low levels is a silly thing to do, but the simple fact of the matter is you knew what you were getting into when you rolled onto a Pvp server. If you want it to stop, just transfer to pve.
Don't have the cash?
B.S. You pay $15 a month to play. Quit for a month, save you $15 and transfer to a server you'll actually enjoy.
You're friend likes Pvp servers?
He's your Freind isn't he? If he can talk you into rolling onto a server type you hate, couldn't you do the same? Besides which, if he prefers Pvp servers then he probably likes things the way they are. Why would you want to ruin that for him? Some friend you are.
Basically I won't even attempt to justify ganking, griefing, camping, or any of the other crap people can and will pull on Pvp servers. All I'm saying is I ,and a whole bucketload of other people, like pvp servers the way they are. We knew what we were in for when we rolled our chars on these servers and we chose to do so because we found the constant tension fun and exciting. If you can't handle the stuff that happens here, that's fine. You don't have to worry about being ganked, griefed, camped, or whatever; because Blizzard made all these nifty Pve servers. I'll never understand why you feel it'd be a good idea to force everyone on Pvp servers to play your way when there are entire servers out there Just For You.
It pretty much sounds like all you want to do is get rid of Pvp servers altogether. Apparently you guys just want pve and pvewashopaftof* servers.
(*Player Vs Environment with a slight hint of passive aggression for the opposing faction.)
In closing, just leave pvp servers alone. They're fine the way they are. I've leveled six toons to 70 on pvp servers and I'm working on my seventh. Being ganked isn't fun, but it isn't as horrid as most make it out to be and there are ways to get away from gankers. If you can't stand the heat get outta my kitchen.
jaenicoll Apr 7th 2008 1:56AM
Attacking lowbies has no honour whatsoever and seems to only appeal to a certain type of coward that considers ruining other peoples pleasure as a fun activity.
Best idea I read in the thread was to make Toons that have more than X levels separating them simpky unable to attack each other.