Are we the bad guys of Azeroth?
After publishing a recent Breakfast Topic on whether there should be a sense of personal honor in PvP, I wasn't really all that surprised to see a few comments echoing the sentiments of "If it's red, it's dead" and "Don't roll on a PvP server if you don't want to get ganked." These crop up in any discussion about PvP, and while there's an undeniable sense to them -- why would you roll on a PvP realm unless you wanted to, I dunno, PvP? -- I've always felt that they did actual PvP a disservice. You can't frame ganking as true PvP. There's no such thing as strategy, skill, or even combat when a player one-shots another, so I've never considered ganking to be defensible along the same lines that actual PvP is.But that just made me think about legitimate ways that people defend world PvP occurring under fairer circumstances. According to existing lore, the Horde and the Alliance more or less operate under the terms of an informal and at times uncomfortable truce. The lore justifies battlegrounds in the sense that the Silverwing Sentinels versus the Warsong Outriders (for example) aren't operating under the official auspices of their respective factions; the clashes are understood to be quarrels between sub-groups. But you can make a pretty strong case that as long as these quarrels are being actively fought, no true peace between the Horde and the Alliance is possible. Any negotiation or discussion is bound to deteriorate into a never-ending litany of "But (your sub-group) is still attacking (my sub-group)!" Clashes between individual players are likely to be considered the same way ("I know what you did in Nagrand last summer!"). You can't swing a dead cat in the world today without hitting a long-running intranational, international, or interstate feud being continued by people who absolutely will not back off an old grudge, and that's the lens through which I tend to view most world PvP and battlegrounds. All very well and good, but in the end both factions face significantly more danger from the Burning Legion and the Scourge than they do from each other.
Assuming we're all still in it for the fun of PvP (and, well, the gear), this is pretty much just a mental exercise, but it's interesting to consider that player-characters are, lore-wise, among the primary contributors (rather than the primary responders) to the friction between the Horde and the Alliance.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, PvP, Lore, Factions, Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 5)
Lazaria Apr 3rd 2008 4:37AM
Ok so here are my 2 pennies and a cup of tea. (Living in England is getting to me)
I am currenly leveling a rogue on a pvp server. I am now reasonably high enough to defend myself on Azeroth atleast (Lvl 54). I find as a Rogue the potential for ganking is as high as it can be as you can choose your target and if they are anywhere near your level chances are they are not aware you are there. I try to adhere to some rules that make me feel like I have a sense of personal honor some of which are the following:
1) I will NOT kill anyone who has no fighting chance. I generally see that as 3 - 5 levels below me. This is my own opnion of being fair.
2) I will always make sure my enemy saw me stealth. The fight is more interesting this way. Your enemy knows you are there.
3) If i am questing I will try to acknowledge members of the other faction who wave .. smile .. dance etc. Griefing another player while they are trying to do their quests is simply not worth the 5 honor points you get in world pvp.
4) I do not engage targets on their mounts or targets who are running away.
5) I will not attack another player while they are still fighting a mob. I do not need a mob to help me kill them.
6) My guildies and I have a moto: We will kill you if ur takin r mobs or takin r jobs (mining my nodes)
Thank you
Lazaria
Ravenswing Apr 3rd 2008 8:12AM
Once upon a time, I ran a Neverwinter Nights server. One of my greatest pleasures was annoying PKers. We didn't call them PKers, they did. They had several forums dedicated to the art of Player Killing, that's what they called it.
PKing quite often involved using hacked kit, or kit designed specifically for the purpose of slotting up other player characters. Half the login code on the server was dedicated to identifying and deleting illegal kit (i.e. kit which could not be created in the module editor).
How did I annoy them? I gave them a taste of their own medicine. I took out one of my normal (non-DM) characters, but I used scripted kit which made me effectively invulnerable and allowed me to damage them no matter what over-stated armour they were wearing. Suddenly there would be a lot of whining as their character was ridiculed, crushed and their account key banned. (Usually, they would try again having several, often illegally obtained, account keys, but I'm a programmer by profession and I could usually spot them from IP addresses and the like. besides, the 'warez' keys were usually used by several people and already banned.)
When I'm sitting in an AH and suddenly the auctioneer is one-shotted by a level 70, it really does bring back those days. Reading discussions like this brings them back too. Perhaps now they are called 'gankers' instead of PKers, but it's the same attitude. I am absolutely sure that the majority of people who PvP in WoW are there to have fun (and get gear), but there is a significant and very vocal minority who are there to bully people. They are the entire reason I play on a PvE server, and they are largely responsible for making roleplaying on MMOs a joke (well, along with the Goldshire cyb0r mob, but at least they don't actually interfere with normal play).
Personally, I quite enjoy (but suck at) PvP, and would like to do a bit more of it (probably in a guild BG team sometime). But PKing is just cowardice, as is all bullying.
AV_alliance Apr 3rd 2008 9:26AM
Most of the comments in favor of ganking/greifing come from brave little rogues. Get over yourself, killing someone who is fighting a mob / or is more then 10 levels bellow yous is nothing heroic, nor is it PvP.
Try to do that on your other characters who cannot stealth away after your great acomplishments and then bragg about it.
jamessungkil Apr 3rd 2008 1:38PM
ganking IS part of the game, if you are being prevented from questing, quest somewhere else, blizzard has implemented plenty of questing areas at various different levels. Also being ganked and ganking for me gives me a bit of a wake up call while im falling asleep after tryign to clear through 1-2 zones as fast as possible, and it gives me and my guild a chance to have a little vengeful fun. Also if you are being ganked the best part is preventing it from happeneing again by ressing at the right time and doing what you can to get away and /lol at the player who completely failed and camping you, a pally can lol bubble or repent or hammer, a rogue can blind, vanish, sap, sprint, a hunter and wingclip, freeze trap, scatter shot, a lock can lolcoil, fear, curse of exhaustion, a priest can fear, or some can chastise, a druid can cyclone, entangle, travel form, a warrior can charge hamstring and fear, a mage can poly iceblock silence, blink, and a shaman can earthbind and ghostwolf away. So please if you're getting corpse camped, obviously it's an inevitable death people are trying to hold on you, so instead of crying about it, look into the your personal success in preventing it.
Elcidd Apr 3rd 2008 2:14PM
Being relatively new to the game and having to quest in Tarren Mill I have been ganked many times. Only once did someone go as far as to camp my corpse... I just called up a couple of my lvl 70 guildmates who were in the vicinity and they cleaned that ally up real nicely.
On the other side I have been wandering around Ashenvale and I run into low lvl allies frequently (lvl 10-15, Im lvl 29) and I simply run past them.
1. Ganking people isnt worth my time when I have a pile of quests to finish up.
2. I'm not a douche.
I have fought people at my level and win or lose thats alot of fun. Ganking or getting ganked isnt fun or constructive.
Tarc Apr 3rd 2008 2:29PM
Well, I am leveling up a rogue on my first WoW PvP server lately, lvl 39 atm. I've been ganked ad nauseam so far, its just the nature of the game. Sometimes its kinda funny though, and not what one expects.
Walking through Arathai unstealthed (I know, dumb. Was being lazy) and there goes the familiar sap wooziness. I prepare for the pending trek back to the corpse, but then comes the pleasant surprise of the HP bar only going down 1/4 or a 1/3 or so. Turn around and there's a *level 33* hacking away, whom I dispatch with minor difficulty.
So anyways, WoW is a game, and one that attracts a lot of teens and young adults not known for their feats of maturity. Going in to this sort of atmosphere expecting honor or fair play is a bit naive to be honest. You need to play with the hand that's dealt.
Nasgoul Apr 3rd 2008 2:41PM
are you serious there with the Hitler reference?? lol just rediculus.. yo man its just a game.. you should relax a little..the difference between talking sh** about the Horde and talking about real people with real problems, is that the real people are real and the Horde are computer chacters on a video game
you comparing what i said to Hitler etc. belittles the real issues, real and serious racism and descrimination that ethnic groups in the US have to deal with on a daily basis.... relax with your political correctness and your fake and/or iggnorant overblown offense...
save the serious talk for serious discussions.. and more serious websites... lets let WAR of warcraft insider be about war (a fake war mind you)... and not about ur iggnorant comments....
Tim Apr 5th 2008 12:29AM
So you're saying you'd like to see a Hitler-esque regime rise to power in Azeroth? I mean, hey, if that's how you like to role-play, more power to you, but if that's the case, Blizzard really needs to make it possible for GUILDS to declare war on each other to keep things like that in check.
The point is, getting your enjoyment out of ganking lowbies is in-game "genocide." It might be "fun" for you if you're a pathetic loser, but it's certainly not fun for the lowbie. You're right...it's just a game. Games are made for people to have fun. The problem comes when a prick decides that what's "fun" is to ruin it for everyone else.
And the fact remains that the words you used sound EXACTLY like local white supremacist groups. Whether it's "just a game" or not, that's a very frightening thought, because thought processes like that aren't just about letting off steam, they're about perceiving the other side as nothing more than animals that deserve to be slaughtered. That's when you stop playing the game and start trying to ruin it for other players.
And your problem is that you don't even realize that your attitudes, supposedly directed at "fake video game characters" are being directed toward real PEOPLE. These people are in the game world to have fun, just like you, but you feel that, simply because they decided to play as horde and have to quest in a contested area, that means you should kill them.
Of course it's a game. Of course you aren't really hurting anyone (outside of the stress that comes from being corpse-camped), but it's not an over-developed sense of political correctness motivating me to be concerned about these attitudes...it's the firm belief that, game or no, these attitudes have absolutely no right being allowed to exist, because cultivating them in any sense only lends credence to them, and they have more than enough credence already.
Silverrealm Apr 3rd 2008 3:41PM
I'm on a PVE server and when I want to PVP I go to BG, simple!
I don't think camping out a lowbie is chivalrous, I think it is cowardice.
The only time I have 'ganked' (and it's not ganking if they pick the fight first) is when the opposing faction picks a fight with us... they deserve to be handed their arse, and camped until they get the feck out of our territory!
And no, I don't think ganking is a right of passage... nor 'makes' you more aware... because just doing BG will accomplish the same thing! ... or quest in Duskwood and get stitches to come up behind you! Or Ungoro for that matter... damn devilsaurs!
I don't roll PVP server, and that is my choice, but I don't think it is brave for habitual gankers to abuse small toons!
jbodar Apr 8th 2008 10:14PM
Please tell me you're not honestly comparing a wandering mob with a thinking person (at least quasi-intelligent) who is also questing in the same area? Think about how many times you've been questing and ran across someone of the opposite faction. Did you see them coming every time?
A PvP server is made a lot easy if you learn to have eyes in the back of your head. I find that on my PvE server I can just slack off and lazily grind mobs. No judgment; sometimes it's what I want to do -- level in peace. Other times, I want the feeling of being in danger while I quest and to have that "Mexican standoff" moment when encountering the other faction, even a good chase.
It doesn't make one play-style better but you must concede that the styles are different and that they each have pros and cons. Why is that so hard for people? It's as if admitting that PvE is not just for whiny carebears or PvP is not just for griefing d-bags, it is admitting defeat.
Calybos Apr 4th 2008 5:07PM
To answer the original question, "Are we the bad guys of Azeroth?"
Yes. Yes, you are.
Ganking and griefing ARE forms of PvP, and they reveal how immature, cowardly, and cruel the people who enjoy that sort of stuff are.
Other forms of PvP--"honorable duels" if you will--are, you'll notice, the only type of PvP available on non-PvP servers. There's a reason for that. People on normal servers want a bare minimum of civilized behavior in-game, and don't want to serve as fodder for someone else's pathetic insecurities.
It's a game, yes... but it's one with RULES, and one that EVERYBODY wants to enjoy. Not just you.
jbodar Apr 4th 2008 10:54PM
Wow... painting with a broad enough brush there? That's why if you don't want to be "forced" into PvP, you don't roll on that flavor of server, hence the separation.
Some people *enjoy* the excitement and extra challenge of having to watch your back while questing, and those people agree to mutual combat by rolling PvP.
It may not be fun getting ganked, but I have "gotten my money's worth" plenty of times in mid-level PvP battles in places like Hillsbrad, STV, and others. Hell, I've even had fun evading a gank or two. PvP servers are not inherently "better" than PvE and vice-versa. To claim that PvE players simply chose the moral high-ground is ridiculous and insulting. Not everyone on a PvP server runs around low-level contested zones one-shotting lowbies, as evidenced by those on this thread who have posted their "standing rules of engagement". Mine are pretty simple: I ignore all "greys" but anything green or above is fair game, at any time. I don't camp unless the guy's *really* done something to deserve it, such as camping someone else.
Honestly, everyone should try re-rolling on a PvP server just for fun -- you may enjoy it. I once had the same prejudices, and now play regularly on 2 servers: PvP-H and PvE-A.
Belicajur Apr 5th 2008 5:43PM
WoW has the most softcore PvP there is, even on a PvP you don't get flagged as PvP until you enter contested territory. Ganking IS PvP, Corpse-camping IS PvP, Node-"stealing" IS PvP. If it was up to the moaners, there wouldn't be any PvP at all on a PvP servers, instead we'd all be duelling or sitting around making diasy chains. If anyone wants to experience what REAL PvP is, pick up a copy of EvE.
Bunky Apr 10th 2008 2:27AM
This system you're talking about already exists... on PVE realms. No higher levels can attack you unless you choose to flag yourself.
Again I fail to see why we should change PVP realms to be friendlier to people who would Clearly prefer to be on a PVE realm.
MonkeyEggs Apr 19th 2008 11:25PM
The OP had a pretty interesting point about the relation PVP to Lore. The comments have completely ignored that and picked up an argument that's been old since before the game launched. The official rules of the game are on the PVE servers. If you don't like the PVP heat you can play in the other kitchen. I don't really see what else there is to discuss about that.
Colonel Kurtz Apr 29th 2008 7:20AM
A PVE realm gives me a sense of restriction, while on a PVP realm you have the freedom to interact with the opposite faction in any way.
I like to think that Blizzard planned, and have continued to manipulate, the tedious relationships between the Alliance and the Horde. I think it's brilliant, that people love and hate in-game with such fervor, that it actually spills out into the real world.
Denying yourself that aspect of the game on a PVE realm, is really denying yourself another brilliant, and hopefully deliberate, element of the game.