Officers' Quarters: Casual raiding that works

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
OK, guys, here it is: the column you've all been begging me to write. If e-mail had weight, I'd have approximately 1.5 tons of it about how to take a casual guild into the raiding endgame. You want to know how to motivate people, which I've covered, how to keep it from getting too "hardcore," which I've also already covered, and how to succeed where so many others have failed. It's that last bit I'm going to focus on. Since so many have written in about this, I'm not going to quote any particular person's e-mail. So I'll just say this to all who wrote me: Thank you for reading the column and having faith in me that I can explain it. We'll see if that faith was well placed or not!
Let me say this up front: You can raid as a casual guild, but you can't raid casually. Raiding as a casual guild means your guild raids, but it isn't the only thing your guild does. You have flexible rules about attendance and fewer requirements for joining. You are more tolerant of those who don't quite know what they're doing yet and try to help your members learn to play their best.
On the other hand, raiding casually means people show up to that night's raid late if at all, their talent specs are all over the place, and they may or may not bring the right consumables, install the right addons, or know anything at all about the zone they want to defeat. This approach doesn't work, end of story. Trust me. I've tried it. It gets ugly very fast.
When everyone steps through that swirly instance portal, your players have to put aside their personal issues. They have to turn off their TVs, shut the door to their room or office, and get focused. They have to come prepared to succeed. That doesn't mean they can't have fun. It just means everyone has to take their job seriously. And no one has to take their job more seriously than your raid leader.
1. Find a Committed Raid Leader
Much like the house where you grew up, a raid is not a democracy. Everyone should feel free to express their opinion, but somebody has to make the tough final decisions and somebody has to be hard on people so the group will improve. A good raid leader knows the mechanics of every class, the personalities of the raiders, and the nuances of every pull and every boss. That doesn't sound very casual, does it? It's not. This is an important point that most casual guilds don't understand as they embark on their first raid: There has to be at least one person who falls into the "hardcore" category, and that is your raid leader.
Leading raids might actually be more difficult than leading a guild. That person can't afford to slack. They have to look at everything with a critical eye, from a person's spec to their casting rotation to the buffs they use. They constantly have to make judgment calls about who is good enough for what. Sometimes a raid leader has to hurt a person's feelings. It's not fun telling that guy who's incredibly likable and generous but can't DPS his way out of a wet 6-slot bag that he has to step it up if he wants to come to Night 2 of that week's Karazhan. And that's just a small glimpse at why very few people want to lead raids.
It's not a job that can be forced on someone. He or she will burn out very quickly when things start to go wrong. You have to find a member -- not necessarily an officer (although that does help) -- who is perverse enough to enjoy this role. You might be lucky enough to have more than one person who's good at this, but consider yourself fortunate if you have just one, because one is enough for a casual guild. You have to schedule your raids around his or her real-life commitments, but in exchange for that you'll have consistent, effective leadership. And that is the primary ingredient for successful raiding.
2. Develop a Fair Loot System
Raiding takes time out of people's lives, time away from other obligations and responsibilities. So they need to feel that they will be properly rewarded for that time. A loot system in which officers and their friends get first dibs is a short trip to Failuretown. Likewise, a DKP system that allows people to build up massive point totals so a new member won't see a drop for months is demoralizing to recruits and makes it difficult to retain them. However, it can be just as bad to propagate a system that allows a brand new raider to outbid a longstanding member with 100% attendance who's been waiting for a certain drop since, well, forever.
What does my guild use? We decided on a modified zero-sum DKP system. The basics are simple. We assign point values to every drop in a certain zone. When something drops, the person who has earned the most points can take it. If that person has 40 points at the time, and the item is worth 100 points, they now have -60 points. They have to work their way back into positive points before they can receive another item. Meanwhile, everyone in the raid receives the 100 points that were spent. Since everyone gets the same total that one person lost, no points have been added to the system. Thus the phrase "zero-sum."
What's great about this system is that veterans can build up points to outbid a newer member or someone with less attendance -- but once they spend those points, they can't receive another item for a while, giving those other people a chance to receive something. Those who attend more frequently will obviously get more points and more loot, but they won't always get everything that they want to take.
We added some very tiny bonuses for showing up on time, staying through a night of wipes with no loot, and participating in a guild-first kill. The bonuses add a small bit of "inflation" to the system, but it's not enough to allow massive point buildups. It motivates people to be timely and to attend when the odds of actually getting loot might be 50/50.
There are many different effective loot systems out there, so take a look around the Web and find one that works for you. If you've used another system that worked well, tell us about it below!
It's up to you whether you want to use a point system for all raids or only for 25-player raids. We do the latter, because there isn't nearly as much competition for a given item in a smaller raid setting. For Kara and Zul'Aman, /random works fine for us. But we tend to have mature players who don't mind passing on drops from time to time for whatever reason. If our members were more self-centered, this very casual method wouldn't work for any raid size.
Obviously this topic covers quite a broad range of issues, so it's going to take up several columns' worth of information. Stay tuned for part 2 of what will probably be several more next week!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Eamara Apr 7th 2008 11:25AM
Oh, excellent. This is pretty much the exact situation my guild is in; I'm the raid leader for my casual guild, and I've always been curious as to whether I've been "doing it right". Very interested to see your opinions on the matter, and am looking forward to picking up advice for raid leading for a casual guild. Keep it coming!
Tyranor Apr 7th 2008 11:33AM
Great column! I'm probably a bit more than casual at this point, but I'm definitely not hardcore either, so this is definitely worth keeping in mind. I just wanted to add a little something I've learnt from my new guild: automate as much as humanly possible. Its going to be very hard for somebody to dedicate a significant amount of time to scheduling raids or organising DKP, but if you use Group Calendar or GEM for raid organising, and online DKP organisers (we use gsdkp but I suspect there are a bunch of other alternatives around) it makes for a better experience all around without anybody having to spend hours organising.
Of course, then you have the issue of getting everybody to download/sign up, but thats something else entirely...
Zor Apr 7th 2008 11:26AM
wow, were going through some things this article covers
nice timing, and great write up...tuff casually entering places that are hardcore, i find once a place is on farm status (through hard core measure) then the place can be done casually, kind of like a cat chasing its tail
juicyjuice Apr 7th 2008 12:02PM
This is just my opinion, and Im sure alot of people would seriously disagree, but the biggest problem most guilds have to overcome to become a succesful casual raiding guild is that 25 people is still just way too many. Yeah wow is an rpg game, but the social standards IRL still hold pretty true in game.
Im no social psychologist (i did take BOTH psyc and soan 101 though), and maybe this is a vast overgeneralization, but if I had to guess, I would say the average wow player is one who prefers getting together with a small group of friends at the pub over the big blowout bash at your local disco. And where do the fights always seem to break out? Its always at the disco.
Its not really anyone's fault, the disco just has too many temptations, thats where people show up in their epics, they bring their best game, and all the d00ds try to leave at the end of the night with the best prize. Its where the Tom Cruise Purple is, and you know you shouldnt try it, but once it hits your lips youre hooked.
Think of wow like a sports franchise. What other franchise feels its necessary to pit 25 people against one another? I cant think of any, i just dont think it would be managable. 5 or 11 seems to be the magic number in most cases which is pretty close to what we have in wow. Five people is the magic dungeon number, and add a pet to your kara raid and youre looking at a professional football (american or otherwise) squad. Can you imagine 6 Tom Bradys throwing 6 footballs to 6 Randy Mosses while 6 Logan Mankins block for 6 Kevin Faulks and a Corey Dillon (sorry Corey, just needed to round out 25)? Itd be madness!
Blizzard has said before that the 10 mans are far and away the most popular instances in the game, hopefully we'll see more of them in the future, and less guild killers. But i digress.
PS: yes thats pretty much the extent of my football knowlege.
Eamara Apr 7th 2008 12:16PM
"What other franchise feels its necessary to pit 25 people against one another?"
Well, since when was raiding about competition? I know, you get the silly e-peen DPS competitions, but apart from those it's all about co-operation and group synergy to get the boss down. And even the DPS competitions are minor in a casual guild. At least, that's what I've found from my experience. I haven't seen many, if any fights break out while I've been raid leading 25 mans, and we're very much stuck into T5.
I also find that 10 mans are very limiting, in more ways than one. Limiting in that not as many people can go (you can run two groups, but that's still 5 going without if you have the numbers for a 25 man raid), and limiting in terms of boss fight mechanics. Maybe it's just me, but I find 25 man fights far more interesting and fun than 10 man encounters.
That isn't to say 10 mans don't have their fair share of fun. Jan'alai for instance in ZA is pretty fun, albeit chaotic and unforgiving. Shade of Aran is also a fun fight. The main problem however is that a lot of 10 man fights essentially boil down to tank and spank fights, with a couple of abilities to watch out for.
So yeah. 25 mans, while potentially difficult to organise, are easily some of the most fun you can have in WoW. And if you can manage it without drama and ridiculously strict rules regarding attendance and loot, so much the better!
anonymoose Apr 7th 2008 1:06PM
I've seen far more drama center around the TBC 10 mans than I have any of the 25 man raids.
stonehead Apr 7th 2008 2:23PM
To #'s 5 and 6:
#4 wasn't suggesting that 25 man raids compete with each other, he was saying that it's more difficult to coordinate 25 people to a task (beating another team or beating a boss), than it is for 11 people.
And the reason you see more drama with 10 mans is that FAR more people are doing them. More runs of an instance = more opportunities for drama = more drama. Also, since it takes less coordination to do a 10 man, you get less experienced and less mature people, imo.
Charlie Apr 7th 2008 2:23PM
I believe that your thinking about "raiding casually", not a "casual raiding guild". As Scott said, raiding casually does not work. period. Finding 25 people when you are raiding casually is just one of the issues there.
Now, for a casual raiding guild, who is serious about their raiding, 25 people is not that big of a burden.
jjfoley Apr 7th 2008 1:24PM
Our guild uses a similar zero-sum system and it's worked great. We have hardcore raiders and part-timers who cycle through when they can. Two additions that have worked REALLY well is the idea of qualified rolling and wishlists.
Anyone who has enough points to afford a particular drop without going negative is qualified to roll on it. This means that you don't have to be top of the list to get the loot, giving more incentive for people to climb "high enough" to have a chance at getting a good drop. If no one with enough points wants to roll, then it's opened up to EVERYONE and yes they can go negative if they win the loot.
After you've earned a certain number of points within the system, you're allowed to put an item on your wishlist. (Great for collecting those tier pieces, for instance.) If you're in a raid and your wishlisted item drops -- and you are qualified to roll on it -- you only roll against anyone else on the raid who has also wishlisted the item. If you can't afford it but no qualified rollers are rolling on it, then you still have priority over the folks who haven't wishlisted it.
This requires a bit of bookkeeping but no more so than the zero-sum system. We have a wishlist thread in our forum that people use to announce their wishlisted items (and when they get them). For every item drop, it's the responsibility of the player to announce how many points they have and whether an item is wishlisted. For each drop, you announce your points and whether you've got something wishlisted. At a glance it's easy to tell who gets the loot.
Arras Apr 7th 2008 12:09PM
we're a casual guild that raids and this column speaks volumes to what we deal with every week.
We spread the "love" of leading raids among myself, the MT and the MH. We discuss the strats, figure out who needs to do what while everyone else sits back and pew pews and QQs about not getting their loot.
The only thing I wished you touched on is what to do about people who don't carry their weight. We have some folks who just don't get it. No matter how many times we do Moroes or R&J they'll always ask 10 times "who do we attack first?" and they still manage to attack the wrong target and have to whispered and told in vent to attack the right target.
It would be personally gratifying to just bench them week after week and not deal with it, but that would hurt feelings and if they weren't there, we might not have a full run.
Chri Apr 15th 2008 2:22AM
In my guild we're having the same problem. Most of the raid has been playing together for ages - entering Kara with blues and greens. We fought hard to defeat each boss, we got stuck on Moroes for weeks, then stuck on Curator etc slowly gearing up.
However, now those raiders have about 1 item left from Kara and have gone on to do other raids. Each week we're bringing in more and more of our guildies to gear them up as we wish to do Gruuls as a guild. But we've got 2 major problems:
1. New raider rolls higher than the experienced raider on that amazing drop and wins. Happened to me... man that hurts.
2. New raiders are slack! The new healers sit back in the fight and brag about how they don't run out of mana... new mage has good gear, good spec and bad dps
The frustrating thing is that we offer advice whenever we can but they don't take it seriously. Bring in too many of the new players and they wipe on the earlier bosses - when I know they have enough gear to do it!
Any advice on how to toughen up new raiders without causing the whole raid to wipe over and over again?
ps. The only way to get people to show up on time (in my experience) is to make it clear they are not guaranteed a spot... and that the invite will go to whomever is online first.
anonymoose Apr 7th 2008 12:12PM
I left an adult casual guild I loved very, very much in early TBC for the simple fact that the lack of skill and understanding of class mechanics made it a nightmare to group with my friends. I actually wanted to see bosses downed, I had loot goals, and I had (and have) the skill and interest to raid.
The content has "softened" a bit, and is slightly more forgiving than it used to be--but it is still vital to gear & spec properly, and read up on encounters as well as keeping up on the changes with ones class if you are going to raid successfully.
I've since been in more hardcore guilds and have found I disliked the social environments, as well as the fact that raid times kept me up late on a regular basis. I'm now in a hardcore casual raiding guild in BT & MH with a 12 hour per week raid schedule--we are largely casual in many things, but when we raid we do so with the same intensity and focus as any of the hardcore guilds I've been in.
I think that distinction about not being able to raid casually is an important one. Show up on time with all needed reagants, keep vent clear for raid related announcements from leaders, use consumables, spec and gear properly, don't afk suddenly, do what feels like chain pulling to get the trash down, don't expect breaks between every single pull and yes--you can raid on a very limited schedule and have a blast doing it.
Dakira Apr 7th 2008 12:25PM
Hiring: One Committed Raid Leader for Causal guild on Ravenholdt.
Pay: nil (enjoyment of the game).
Great article I know what Casual Raid Leader burn out is... when people ask you to setup the raid and you dread having to always PUG 3 or 4 members because of no-shows or people being late, so I'd rather make up a silly real life excuse and hide on a alt.
Of course I've never done that *smile*.
Nick S Apr 7th 2008 12:28PM
"Leading raids might actually be more difficult than leading a guild."
Yes.
I've only led a few - Kara and ZA only - and it's challenging on so many levels. You have to convince people to come, deal with people not showing up, cope with the emotional stress of telling someone who's undergeared to bugger off... it's tough.
kenney Apr 7th 2008 12:55PM
Excellent article (again!)
One thing I would say about loot systems is that you need to select one that solves the problems you are facing as a raid guild. We've used a lot of different systems in the past, and find that any given solution stays "the best" for a finite amount of time (my favorite has actually been the gm/raid leader acting as a loot council of one- you need to have the right individual for this to work though). You need to ask yourself what you are most interested in accomplishing with your loot system- if you are a casual raid guild, my guess is that you are going to find that motivating attendance is more important than evenly gearing up your raid force.
Another common tactic that has worked well for us is to establish a "raider" guild rank. Raiders have to meet attendance and performance requirements, but are rewarded with guaranteed raid slots (and the title itself seems to be a goal our members coveted). Having a raider rank encourages people to take raiding a little more seriously, and also ensures that you have the same group learning the fights as much as possible.
Finally, you will find that you can't make all the people happy all the time. Almost every time you decide to take actions to ensure more successful raids, your most casual players are going to grumble and feel alienated. It's important that they understand that 1) structuring things to make the most casuals happy isn't fair to the less casual, and 2) faster progression benefits them as well, because enough progression means that amazing gear starts rotting.
VSUReaper Apr 7th 2008 12:59PM
I just started to raid Kara about a month ago with my new guild and I'm still in the proccess of learning the fight as a priestly healer. Once I get a firmer grasp on the fights and how everything works, I'm going to give it a shot at being a raid leader.
Our loot system is pretty simple: if an item drops, and it applies for your main spec, then you get to roll on it. If it is inferrior to your gear, then you pass on it for someone else. If no one needs it for thier primary spec, then an off-spec person gets it. And if they dont need it, then it gets de'd and we roll for the shards.
A perfect example would be the Shard of the Virtuous that drops off of Maiden. It dropped 4 weeks in a row, and we only run 3 healers in kara. I passed each time because I raid with my Merciless Gladiators Salvation. First time it dropped, the other priest got it, then the paladin got it the next time. The third drop went to a shadow priest for his off-spec. The fourth was sharded and rolled for.
I honestly think this is a fare way to roll for gear.
JaneLame Apr 8th 2008 11:33AM
I don't think this article refers to Karazhan anyway. Kara can be done casually without any trouble, even with a pug, and the loot is rolled for rather than using DKP.
The problems pile up when you start doing 25 man raids. Those are very hard to do with casual people.
Milktub Apr 7th 2008 1:10PM
Perfect timing. My guild has been wrestling as a "Raiding Casually" guild to the point where the people who actually want to raid were getting frustrated and leaving because of the people who were just sort of "there" would come late, afk in the middle of trash pulls, have no idea what consumables were, etc.
So we had a guild meeting, and are tightening up as a "Casual Raiding" guild. It'll be a fun couple weeks!
Andy Apr 7th 2008 1:18PM
I've been 70 for about 2 or 3 months, and I am interested in raiding but have only been to kara once so far. Once I hit 70 I joined a new guild with hopes of going to Kara, but it was all "you have to be here tomorrow at 7pm" etc etc and I just hated it. World Of Warcraft is a game for me, not a job. I love playing it, but if a mate rings me up and wants to hang out, I'm going to do that instead of play WoW. Unfortunately that leaves 9 other guild members annoyed that I didn't turn up...
The casual/hardcore thing seems like this to me: there are people who play when they have nothing else to do (casual, me) and people who just... play all the time.
I would love to raid more and I'm pretty sure I have the skill/concentration etc to do it, I'm just not willing to have a mate come to my door or ring me up and say "sorry I cant do anything, i'm busy raiding". Thats how you lose touch with real life...
Michael Apr 7th 2008 1:51PM
Andy,
Raiding requires balancing the game and real life. You won't be able to see endgame content if you cannot set aside the time to do so. That doesn't mean that you should end up raiding 24 x 7, and ignoring your real life friends either.
If your guild raids Kara once or twice a week, you have to commit to those times or get used to the idea that you are not going to be killing Price and Nightbane anytime soon. It's not fair to those other 9 people for you to up and leave in the middle.
Please don't assume people who raid do not have lives outside of the game, and that they play because they have nothing else to do. For some people that might be true, but for most casual players who raid, they have to work very hard at balancing.
Personally, I'm a raid leader in a guild that finally downed Magtheridon, Lurker, Hydross and Void Reaver in the last month or so. We've done this with scheduled 25-man raids three times per week.