Raid Rx: Are tier token drops fair?

Raid Rx is designed to encapsulate and cure the shock and horror that is 25-man raid healing. Ok, so it's mostly horror... Anyways, if you're a big fan of X-TREME Whack-A-Mole (or are being forced into it against your will) this is the column for you. People sure can be pushy when it comes to drops. Hands off, ladies. That Netherweave is mine!
Today I share with you one of my deepest secrets. There isn't a week that goes by that I don't lay awake at night, seething about the unfairness of raiding drops. Oh, sure, there's always that elusive piece that has a 0.0002% drop rate that every healer wants. Those are pie in the sky dreams of healing uberness. No, that's not what I mean.
I'm talking about the regular gear that's supposed to be dropping at semi-predictable intervals every week. Most bosses have a fairly limited loot table, and in the raiding world, most of that centers around the tier token system. You are supposed to have a 1 in 3 chance of seeing your token on any given kill. But what if that goes horribly wrong? And worse, what if it starts hurting progression?
Join me after the jump for a tale of woe and angst, plus what Blizzard has been doing to unintentionally fix the situation (sorta).
Ok, grab your blanky and settle in for some background story time. A long time ago in a raid instance far, far away, 40 people would argue over roughly 4 loots that dropped off a boss. Not only were the loots completely random, they only supported itemization for specific raiding classes and specs. If you wanted to be a Feral Druid, you were out of luck. You were going to spend DKP on resto gear and you were going to like it.
As you can imagine, it took many clears and many arguments to get a raid geared up under this system. Most, like my guild, had to institute a loot priority where tanks and healers got first shot at upgrades. Otherwise a guild would remain in the cesspool that is MC for eternity.
With the release of the Burning Crusade, an entirely new raid loot system was introduced. dun Dun DUN: Tokens! One goal of this system was to maintain a normal sized boss loot table while providing more "off-spec" gear support. This helps keep the loot random while still having a high enough chance what you wanted would drop in this century. The second goal was to reduce the amount of undesirable gear by making a drop viable for 3 classes and potentially 9 class/spec combinations. The more people that can use drops, the happier raiders are.
The first raiding token system out of the gate was Tier 5. It was here that the 9 classes were divided up into hate groups. You had Warriors, Priests, and Druids duking it out for some of the most important progression gear in the game. Paladins laughed gleefully since the Rogues and Shamans weren't much competition. That left the Mages and Warlocks spitting and clawing over the remaining drops while Hunters picked at the scraps.
Those with better memories then mine can pipe up with the reasoning behind these groups. I think it had to do with gear type (cloth/leather/mail/plate), but that doesn't match mages and locks being in the same group. Either way, the system wasn't ideal. You had your tanks and half of your healers both trying to get geared up off the same token. Coming out of the old game, you also had a crap ton of Priests and tanks, and little paladins/shaman depending on which faction you called home. This meant I had a full set while the Priests were begging for their 2nd piece bonus.
Because of this population vs token imbalance, Blizzard switched the groupings around for T6. So at this range there's Warrior/Hunter/Shaman (Protector), Paladin/Priest/Warlock (Conqueror), and Rogue/Mage/Druid (Vanquisher). For perspective, we run with a total of 9 people for the first group, 15 people in the middle group, and 12 people in the last group, including standby folks.
With 4 healer classes and 3 tokens, there will always be 2 healers sharing a drop. If you're in the T5 range, it's Priests and Druids. T6 puts Priests and Paladins together, as if there wasn't already some loathing due to Priest-caused Pally nerfs. So from a healing standpoint, you'll always have some gear lag with those paired classes because it will take longer to get everyone their tokens.
But what if the token drops aren't random enough? For my guild, the issue has been completing the 4 piece set for Priests and Paladins. We downed Mother Sharhraz 12 times for a total of 24 shoulder token drops. Out of those, only 5 tokens have been the Priest/Paladin/Warlock. One of them ended up with a healer. For 3 weeks in a row, we had double Protector. We were at the point where Protector was being DE'd because everyone had both their off-set items, too. Pre-Patch 2.4, we had a 67% chance of Protector, 20% chance for Conqueror, and a dismal 13% for Vanquisher.
On Illidari Council, it's the complete opposite. We've had at over 10 of the 24 drops be Conqueror. This is not a best-in-slot drop for some classes, so at this point I own all 3 pants types plus we've been DE'ing them. The Protector group has only had 7 drop.
Pre-Patch 2.4, the only way to get your T6 4-piece bonus was to either get the shoulders or the chest, assuming you had the rest from farm content. Illidan, owner of the chests, gave us more Conqueror bad luck. We had a 45% chance for Vanquisher, a 30% chance for Protector, and a 25% chance (or 5/20 drops) for Conqueror.
Obviously, if we were getting the gear to drop at all, we weren't exactly suffering. We had BT on farm, so it couldn't be all bad, right? Enter the Sunwell Plateau. I don't think anyone would argue that you need to have most of your gear from BT/MH before embarking on this heal-a-thon of a raid zone. The 6 out of 11 of our healers were still sporting the T5 2-piece look. Add onto that the 3 total Illidan healing mace drops and 0 Illidan healing trinkets and we were in sad shape.
The slightly mentioned change that came along with Patch 2.4 is the addition of a 3rd token drop on all bosses. This isn't just moar lewts. It has actually given us a better chance at our healers being ready to pwn in SWP. Since this change, a holy Priest and Paladin have already gotten their 4 piece set bonuses. That's 2 drops in 2 weeks that took us 10 weeks to accomplish before.
From a probability standpoint, you might not think the addition of another token should result in a greater chance of seeing Conqueror. Assuming you have a 33% chance to get a particular token, when you multiply the number of chances by 3, it's still 3/9 or 33%.
The difference in this situation is getting a Conqueror and Vanquisher is the same as getting a Vanquisher and Conqueror. Thus, under the 2 token system, there were 6 9 possibilities for what dropped. So out of all outcomes, there was 56% chance of getting a particular token. Let's say you wanted Token 1 out of 3 total tokens. Well, your only combinations with a Token 1 were 1,1; 1,2; and 1,3. So you have 3 chances divided by 6 total combinations, or a 50% chance of seeing at least a Token 1.
With a 3 token system, there are 9 unique 27 outcomes for tokens resulting in a 70% chance one of the results will have the token you want. For that same Token 1 you now have 1,1,1; 1,1,2; 1,1,3; 1,2,2; 1,3,3; and 1,2,3. If you take 6 divided by 9 you get a 67% chance you'll see at least a Token 1. That might not seem like much, 14% more, but when you've been facing what we've been facing, that more than doubles the drop rate of Vanquisher shoulders.
Now if I could only get the boots from Naj'entus. I'm patient. It's only been 6 weeks since the last one dropped and we've been downing the sewer clam every week since the end of October. No, of course it doesn't bother me that the raid I sat out for they dropped and went to our ret pally. /seethe
[Edited due to weird math. Sorry!]
Marcie Knox has been healing lead for over a year, including old school AQ40/BWL/Naxx. She has suffered through holy priest and now basks in the glory that is healadin. Her pally is currently scanning the LFG forums trying to find a couple of healers. Darn you real life commitments!
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Priest, Shaman, Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Raid Rx (Raid Healing)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Irwin Apr 8th 2008 3:09PM
Naxx had token drops for t3: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22359
And post-BC, t4 was the first token drop, not t5.
Zumwalah Apr 8th 2008 3:11PM
just a little bit of history, but the idea of tokens came along in ZG, and were also used in both aq 20 and 40 aswell as naxx, they existed long before BC
Kugala Apr 8th 2008 3:23PM
The probablility is a bit off. 1,2 isn't the same as 2,1
With 2 tokens, there's a 1/3 chance of seeing it in the first slot, and a 1/3 in the second slot. Or, a 2/3 chance of NOT seeing it in a given slot.
So the odds of seeing any given type at least once is 1-(2/3*2/3) or 5/9 or 55.55%
With 3 tokens, it's now 1-(2/3*2/3*2/3) or 19/27 or 70.37%.
Lab Monkey Apr 8th 2008 3:33PM
I'm no 'mathlete' but I think that a sample size of 20 or 24 is too small to prove any significant deviation from random in the examples given...if that was your point? I'm not really sure what your point was...
Mattlistener Apr 8th 2008 3:41PM
Well, his point was a good one -- he wasn't saying the drops weren't random, he was saying the randomness of the drops meant it took a lot longer for his raid to get geared than they imagined.
Zuqual Apr 8th 2008 3:37PM
Im not sure what the point of this article was. You might have made some arguments about poor class groupings, but they got lost in the same tired "omg the loot we want won't drop" story. Guess what, random loot is random. Keep farming.
Mitch Apr 8th 2008 4:44PM
"Keep farming."
Nope, sorry, not fun. If I've beaten a boss 15 times I want what I'm supposed to get.
There is NO REASON for a RNG to decide if I can continue to gear up or not.
Frostybolts Apr 9th 2008 3:43AM
I agree, this post has a number of factual errors and doesn't seem to have much real point:
- Naxxramas had token drops (And the only class that really got shafted was Rogues, since you needed about 50 warriors with 4 pieces of tier 3 to down the four horsies)
- Tier 4 is token-based too
- The math in the post was off (I can't get too worked up about this, but if you're going to quote probabilities and statistics you should double check your math with someone whose brain hasn't been toasted like ours have from too much WoW)
If you need someone to perform a sanity check on your posts, please e-mail them to me before putting them up..
Mattlistener Apr 8th 2008 3:41PM
The probability calculations in this article are incorrect and should be fixed.
These are the 9 equally-likely outcomes for a 2-token drop:
11 21 31
12 22 32
13 23 33
Of those 9 possibilities, 5 contain at least one of token #1. Therefore your chances of seeing at least one of the token you're looking for on a 2-token drop are 5/9, or about 56%.
These are the 27 equally-likely outcomes for a 3-token drop:
111 211 311
112 212 312
113 213 313
121 221 321
122 222 322
123 223 323
131 231 331
132 232 332
133 233 333
Of those 27 possibilities, 19 contain at least one of token #1. Therefore your chances of seeing at least one of the token you're looking for on a 3-token drop are 19/27, about 70%.
Malinche Apr 8th 2008 3:51PM
Blizz random drop rate blows! Im in a guild that has kara on farm for about the last half year, and I have only seen Sunfury drop twice. Once when I was on my alt and had to see it D/E and the other time, while on my main a hunter, I differed to a veteran hunter in the guild. I have done prince numerous times and only seen that thing drop twice, this with running kara on a weekly basis for the last half year.
Also, the guild has not seen the shield of Nightbane is the same time. Screw tokens, the guild has seen each of them drop; my resto shaman has a healing and a dps set!
Yet the majority of the tokens our guild has seen lately is the shaman/rogue/paly token which we have been stockpiling to turn in for pvp gear, and what a waste that is! Token percentage is not a concern for me, I would like to see other items drop for once, while I can still use it.
juicyjuice Apr 8th 2008 3:51PM
Dont take this the wrong way, I usually love this column. In fact its one of my favorites in terms of useful information (i have lots of other column favorites for more trivial info), and it has exponentially improved my abilities as a healer in game.
This weeks topic though...its a little out of the ordinary to say the least. Not only in what the other posters have already stated, but it seems like a bit of a rant, if you ask me.
Honestly everyone's own personal experience is going to be different; while your guild struggles to equip healers, our guild has yet to see a t4 helm drop for our warriors, and were tackling the beginnings of 25 man content atm.
I got kind of lost in the numbers, but I would think you could make the same argument for all the dps classes, which in some way shape or form is every class.
And not to blow anyone's mind, but what happens when they add Deathknights? Maybe 4 token types?? MAYBE theyll add THREE new classes to even things out...
Anyways, sorry Raidrx but you kind of lost me on this one. Look forward to next week's topic.
BillDoor Apr 8th 2008 3:56PM
... and people wonder why PVP gear is popular. Random Number Generator keeps on screwing people, guilds and progression.
I'm not at the T6 level, but I run Kara once a week and have been for at least four months. I've only ever seen a healing mace drop twice, and there are two that drop in there. We have some very frustrated healers.
Dakira Apr 9th 2008 2:17PM
Every timer we run we get a healing mace... just no tanking gear.
Gotta love randomness!
Meingaree Apr 8th 2008 4:05PM
no, they are not fair.
take a look at our first kalecgos kill.
see those drops?
3% chance.
http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/brian_hanna/?action=view¤t=WoWScrnShot_040608_171120.jpg
Tridus Apr 8th 2008 4:10PM
The problem with random loot is that its not going to be evenly distributed a lot of the time, when what people really want is "fair" drops.
The tokens are a major improvement though. Its still random (so not perfect), but the chances are way lower that you'll go for weeks without having any chance at something. It does still happen, but it happens less often.
Marcie Knox Apr 8th 2008 4:19PM
Thanks for catching the probability mistakes. I corrected the post to reflect them. Luckily the numbers weren't that different.
I'm not qq'ing but honestly surprised at how non-random many of our boss fights have started to feel. The Mother Shahraz joke after Patch 2.4 was "Great, now we'll get tripple Protector."
Angus Apr 9th 2008 10:00AM
Please edit the post and fix it.
T4 was the first to have loot counters post BC.
If your guild somehow skipped Kara and Gruuls I am impressed.
As noted before, Nax, AQ, and ZG had counters used to get gear so it was a late Vanilla WoW experiment that they really liked.
Unfortunately it was pretty much a "pure Spec" system, so the counters helped make it so every class had a shot, but if you were not a healbot and were a hybrid you were SOL. There was no real spec itemization, you just got healing gear in your tier with some stuff to help with non healing.
Isambaard Apr 9th 2008 3:27PM
This is simply human beings sucking at recognizing randomness. I'm sure Blizzard has stats to back up that random loot table generation really is random, when you look at a sufficient sample size to be statistically valid.
Charlie Apr 8th 2008 4:21PM
I think Marcie wasn't commenting on the first token drops, but the first token drops that caused problems, which was t5. t4 has the same classes for the tokens, but t4 gear isn't nearly as important as t5. If you have 2/2 spellstrike and either tailoring set then as a mage you wouldn't want any t4, only possibly the shoulders, but the s1 shoulders were better anyways. you definatley didnt want the chest, gloves, or legs. Helm only if you didn't have spellstrike (best peice out of the set).
Ahoni Apr 8th 2008 4:43PM
Random: lacking any definite plan or order or purpose.
Its random, deal with it.
Any questions?