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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Should Blizzard support Hunter pet diversity?
by Daniel Whitcomb 
Apr 18th 2008 at 8:00AM
While looking over the new "fake" pet skills page at Petopia earlier today, one of the biggest things that struck me is that the whole Thorns skill that the temporary Crab pets get for the lowbie Hunter taming quests would be a great thing for normal Crab pets to get. Right now, They're stuck learning nothing but Claw, placing them right near the bottom of the pet pantheon - very close to Sporebats, who can't learn any special abilities at all. My two high level Hunters tamed a Carrion Bird and a Boar, respectively, so I'm lucky enough to have a good selection of skills to use, but I think there should be more options for people who love their offbeat pets like Sporebats or Hyenas or Crocs. They can even use some of the old rumored alpha skills for pets that popped up around the time of Burning Crusade's alpha. I'm hoping that Blizzard shows more types of Hunter pets some love in WoTLK with a wide selection of new skills, be it thorny shells for Crabs, a Cannibalism-type skills for Raptors, or anything else that lets us see Hunters fighting alongside fewer Cats and Ravagers (or in the case of arenas, Scorpids).
What do you think? Should Blizzard focus a bit more on a wider variety of options for Hunter pets? Or should Hunters just take what they can get and be grateful for it? If the former, what types of new pet skills would you like to see?
Filed under: Hunter, Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Manatank Apr 18th 2008 9:35PM
I think you are still missing my point. No one cares about the balancing the game for soloing.
Pucelle Apr 18th 2008 12:39PM
Hunters should have the same kind of pet diversity we've been promised since patch 1.0, but I'm not expecting to see it any time soon.
Every unique ability on a tamed animal has been nerfed, whether it be attack speed, resistances, or just an unusual skin.
Promises made of adding pet abilities never show up.
Don't hold your breath waiting for Blizzard to add, say, Tail Swipe to your raptor - paladins will get dual-wielding before hunters get buffed.
bokertov Apr 18th 2008 2:14PM
I think the issue there was with your comment was bag slots, meaning the slots open for bags, not the slots IN bags.
Most hunters use ONE bag slot for their ammo pouch/quiver.
Most warlocks use ONE bag slot for their soul shard bag.
It doesn't matter how much ammo, or how many shards you have in the bag, it's still ONE slot taken that can only store those items.
If you and your three hunters don't use ammo pouches/quivers, that's fine. Most other hunters do.
Cailleach Apr 18th 2008 1:00PM
How about just reverse the (*$%($*^% normalization BS. There were lots of hard to get and tame pets with special abilities. It was WORK to get them, and they were limited in other ways, but ifyou wanted to put in the time and effort, you got a reward other than mere looks. There are plenty of player enhancements these days that would make the old abilities even less uber, but still keep the flavor.
Yes, I do still have my lvl 54 Lupos spawn in the stables, because Bansidhe was my PUPPY for many, many levels. She's on a farm, yanno, playing in the lovely fields.
kenney Apr 18th 2008 1:03PM
I think pets are a big part of the fun of hunters, but part of me wonders if the better approach might be to cut down the diversity and improve the customizability.
If ALL pets had similar base stats, and could learn a larger selection of skills, then the choice of pet would be largely cosmetic, and you would have an increase in diversity. I dunno, I'm not a hunter- but it seems as long as there is a "best" choice, that is what most people will have, and you can't blame them.
Rob Apr 18th 2008 1:05PM
Hunters are so broken now (IMO), that we really need something to make up for the nerfs. We haven't grown much at all since vanilla wow. Anyway...We really need another two stable slots, we need some sort of variety for pets, maybe the pet clothing idea (collar or whatever), it would be real nice if they had specials like lightning breath (i know WS have it, we need more pets like WS).
I've been playing my hunter for a year. He's currently more or less shelved. Unless they do something in Wraith to make them interesting, he'll stay shelved. I imagine most of the hunter community feels the same way.
enkafiles Apr 18th 2008 1:19PM
Not quite - I love my hunter, but she doesn't get asked to play much. Farming with her is a blast, grinding isn't a grind, instances are fun - but my resto shaman is in _much_ higher demand.
Zali Apr 18th 2008 2:16PM
Rob,
Again, you make my point. (which isn't about just hunter vs. warlocks) Every class has it's pros and cons. Specifically in relation to this article and some of the comments about how Blizz could improve Hunters through their pets: more pet slots, each pet have more "pet related" skills, and being able to switch pets at will. Every single point I have tried to make is that, due to the wide variety of animals in WOW, that you could simply give a hunter every possible spell in the game, just by having them switch pets around. In some situations a hunters CC is the best, in others it isnt. There are still a lot of CC options available to a hunter already. Adding more, through pet skills, is akin to allowing other classes to train on anything they want, even if it isn't really class related. Blizzard had to say, at some point, "OK, what is the limit for hunters in these areas." If they were to allow hunters to tame everything, and each pet have a different set of skills, then you take the hunter outside of the confines of it's class spec. That sort of thinking would make druids to question why they can't train to shape shift into fifty different types of animals, after all, they can shape shift. How hard would it be to shift into a serpent? That would be sweet. Then I could fly around and attack people without shifting out of a flight form. Of course, Blizzard would say, "Are you joking? NO WAY." Why? Because it would make Druids too powerful because they would have every tool. Maybe not at the same time, but they would all be available. The same goes for Hunters and pet choice. You can't have everything, even if you want everything.
Odok Apr 18th 2008 1:19PM
I would really like to see more pet abilities to the point where any pet becomes viable. It's disappointing that hunter pets aren't much of an aesthetic choice and instead have devolved into a gross system of min-maxing.
Give spore bats 1). Slam, a direct damage attack 2). Tail Whip, a short knockback and 3). Rejuvenating Spores, which heals everyone in the group for a small amount of health/mana. Not exactly a high damage pet, or a sturdy one, but it could have great utility. And people who pick sporebats because they go great with their hunter (which IMO is the whole point) won't be screwed.
As for crabs, you could do the thorns thing. Or give them something like a Double Strike to make up for the lack of bite, and a sunder armor attack to give it some unique utility.
Brian Apr 18th 2008 1:27PM
What annoys me is that the hunter from the First WoW Cinematic has a pet bear and they are still a gimped pet with no special skills whatsoever. I think each family should have a special skill and that some skills should be able to cc mobs. Like a spider web or a Croc grabs the enemy in it's jaw or a bear Stuns the mob. It shouldn't be able to hold an elite mob for long but it should be able to hamper non elites for a few seconds. This would also help the issue of pets and aggro as I have always out aggroed my pet and that's even with pretty duff gear.
I also think that we should be able to spec pets for crit damage. And that there should be a universal 'huge bite' ability that takes half the focus of the pet and does a big chunk of damage.
Zali Apr 18th 2008 1:49PM
Enkafiles,
True, and granted. Although in my personal experience, I only find the opportunity cost to be worth it in Instance/Raid/BG/Arena settings. For any world farming, grinding, and questing I don't think that the additional DPS is worth the bag slots. Maybe in leveling if you want to take down mobs four or five levels above you to max your XP per kill, but when everything is your level it really isn't worth it. IMO.
My druid carry's two full bags of gear. We all have our limitations. The soul shard/ammo arguement was simply a practicle example in an attempt to compare the class most similar to hunters. Even if the example wasn't completely apt, it still wasn't incorrect in terms of the discussion. Each class can not be the best at everything. There have to be pros and cons. You have to give up something in order to get something else. Otherwise why not just create a class called the Huntamagalockashamadruiestarrioradin. That way everyone can be exactly the same. We could tame animals and demons in Tree form while Thunder Clapping each others totums while blasting each other with icy fireballs after stealing each others judgements and buffing ourselves with Gift of the Pack of Shadow Wolf Vampire Form as we Slow Fall after getting stunned in Epic Flight Form. Did I miss anyone?
/smacks dead horse again
Wynn Apr 18th 2008 4:01PM
Zali:
I think you're going on a tangent of class balance, but that's not the issue here (at least from my point of view). The argument doesn't appear to be so much about people wanting their pet to be able to do everything... It's a matter of making pet classes that are currently neglacted viable for endgame. I can't see how bringing more pet types to the level of versatility of ravagers, cats and boars would make the class imbalanced.
Now, regarding pet CC... I don't think it should be a root effect per se, or a totally crippling thing, but an ability to slow someone down with a pet that clearly should be capable of doing it makes sense to me (can't run fast if a croc is chewing up your leg, ya know). Imbalanced in PvP? Make it highly resistable, maybe via resilience, and subject to diminishing returns. Or make it cost the full focus bar, that would certainly avoid spamming, and would result in a decision having to be made (damage vs. CC).
Regardless of whether CC for pets is considered or not, I think it's obvious that there are pet classes that simply aren't suitable for endgame. I don't think a request to make more pet types viable for it is unreasonable at all. You're interpreting it as hunters asking for buffs, and in this specific case, that isn't what it is (pet CC certainly would be). It's just a request for variety.
I won't even address the arrows vs. soul shards argument, since you've already admitted it's hardly appropriate, and because again, this isn't a matter of class balance.
Zali Apr 18th 2008 4:48PM
Wynn,
But class balance is EXACTLY the point. Here is why:
Ask yourself, what pet do I want, and what do I want it to do? People have mentioned spiders with webs to slow down fleeing mobs. You mention some other sorts of CC, maybe not rooted, but slow down effects. Don't hunters have that as an option already? Can't you AOE a trap that slows down every enemy in that area? While at the same time single targeting someone with concussive shots or scorpid shots, or whatever the heck it is thats always slowing me down? Add a bore which can then charge a third target and stun them. Seriously, how much CC do you need? And how much makes hunters totally overclassed in that area? At what point do the Devs at Blizzard say, "You know, they have enough options on that one."
Why not a pet crab that buffs you with unending breath? That would be sweet. Or a clefthoof. Thats got a nice stomp for some more CC, plus you could ride it. Or should we just give sporebats jaws and claws and the ability to make everyone sneeze. And why can't you train your panther and lion pets to do a feral fairy fire? How about turtles with 1000% armor buff, and they can only be defeated by flipping them on their backs.
As is, you currently have a second weapon that whenever possible attacks from behind so it can't be dodged or perried, they can stun, bleed out, and poison opponents, draw agro away from you on mobs, tank or off tank bosses in raids, put out decent DPS, cause other players to split their targeting and attacks, wasting rage/energy/mana in an attempt to CC the pet, just so they can take a shot at you.
So the most useful skills aren't spread out widely enough across a larger variety of beasts. Do you suggest they give beasts skills that they wouldn't naturally have? Is the problem with wanting more skills to add to the pets? Or is it just wanting different visuals, so you have different looking pets?
If it's just about visuals, then I can empathize. I'm tired of the same tree/cat/bear/moonkin look every stinking day. It's a long complaint from druids. It it is about having more pets with a wider variety of skills available, then we get back to my origional point. It is about class balance. Where do you draw the line and say, "No. Hunters can't have that too." In the end a pet is no different than a spell or melee attack on any other class. It is a tool which does damage against a target. Period. Every other class has a limit on what they can do. Some are better than others at one form or another.
So, my question is very simply, if you were an impartial observer with no class preference, where would you draw the line on what was available for hunters to learn via their pets so as to maintain as much balance between classes as possible? Feel free to take into acount things like Lore, assumed class roles in both PVE and PVP, etc. (maybe not so simply after all.)
The topical question today, should Blizzard support hunter pet diversity? The answer is this; no more than they support Mage spell Diversity, Druid shape shifting diversity, Warlock minion diversity, Warrior whatever warriors do diversity, Rogue underhanded assassin jerk diversity, shaman totem diversity and Palidain "I'm holier than thou" diversity.
jbodar Apr 18th 2008 5:07PM
And this is why the mythical class balance will never please some people. Too many people look at the pro of [class X] and says, "Why can't [class Y] do that too?" without looking at the cons of [class X]. Hell, even if they gave unique abilites to Crabs or Sporebats, or whatever, it would either be imba and the new flavor of the week, or underpowered and hunters would be pissed.
Pets families should just be divided into what role they play, and be good at that role. Then the model is purely cosmetic. Pet normalization was good from a balance point of view. None of this "I spent a week taming the uber-pet." Hunters should definitely get more stable slots though.
Wynn Apr 18th 2008 8:38PM
Zali:
I'll answer your questions in a moment. But let me reiterate the point of the first post: The key in this argument is not whether pet CC should be added (although that is one of the possible tangets on this topic). It's whether other pets should be made viable for endgame. I'll address this later on, but first let me answer your questions.
Yes, all hunter specs have ways of keeping enemies at range or not doing damage. BM has Bestial Wrath/TBW, which is wonderful for avoiding enemy CC for a time, and a stronger pet... MM has silencing shot and scatter shot, both are great escape mechanisms, and does great burst damage. And SV has effective, harder-to-resist traps, Wyvern Sting (puts you to sleep + DoT) and the ultimate panic button, Readiness (resets all hunter cooldowns).
But neither spec has all of them, and I don't think any hunter (me included, obviously) would contend that we should. And that is how you keep things balanced, which sort of spills over to your other questions, even the ones regarding pets.
Nobody is asking for all pets to do all things, or even for some pets to do things that they can't do. What we're contending is that all pets should do something. Sure, we can tame lots of beasts. But really truly, only a few are viable later on. And therein lies my complaint, and in my eyes, the question posed in this article: SHOULD there be more options that are viable for hunters at 70?
I think there should be. Part of my concern is aesthetic (I think this addresses another one of your questions), but the other is what I believe to be a key of MMO's: differentiation. Having more choices leads to different possible combinations of hunter, pet and talents... This means players have more room to experiment, and that ultimately leads to a better experience in the game.
How do you keep balance? You limit the abilities certain pet types can use, as it's done now. You suggest any form of pet CC would be overpowered, and cite as an example that boars can charge... But boars aren't the ones that need help. We're advocating for other pets to either be able to learn certain abilities (could be new ones) or to have an ability inherent to their class that makes it a viable alternative (CC or not).
I don't want any pet to be able to learn charge, CC, do magic and make me coffee; I just want the vast majority (or all) of pet types to have some ability or flexibility that makes them worth taming for a reason other than their looks. =)
Thanks for keeping the discussion civil so far.
jbodar Apr 18th 2008 11:20PM
@Wynn
Good post and I can totally agree that there need to be more reasons to take certain pets, so long as the pets are internally balanced. From my limited knowledge of pets, they are currently allocated a stat/skill budget, just like items, but the problem is that some pet types have crappy budgets? Is that the issue? Or is it just that certain skills are way better than their actual cost? Or they just aren't scaling well enough?
To expand on what I said before, all pets should be split into groups based on their archetype. For the most part this is already done. Some are good at tanking, others at DPS, etc. So what the devs really need to do, rather than coming up with new unique abilities for each pet and somehow balancing them all, is say these pets are good for soloing/grinding, these for PVP, and these for raiding. Then give them all similar skills and stats -- and the currently allowed point customization -- and actually make them good at their role. This way people can pick from a pet "template" and the model is just for looks, but they can still customize using the trainer.
Aidem Apr 18th 2008 5:48PM
I have a pet crab which is my main pet. Although she doesn't have all the fancy abilities or the greatest DPS, she gets the job done. I'm had her since she was level 8 and now she's 64 (same with me).
Some Crab abilities would be handy, but nothing too special. I choose a crab because it's unique. If crabs got some uber ability, that uniqueness will be gone.
Raze Apr 19th 2008 4:17AM
Class balance isn't what I'm concerned about. As Brian said earlier, the only conceivable way I could see pet diveristy occuring is if all pets could more or less use the same abilities, with variations made based on if or if not they could fly.
It would take too much time and bring up too many issues with other classes if Hunter pets could truly be so versatile that a Hunter could do anything with them. Frankly, I just wish my Sporebat could do what my Raptor could do: DPS, and nothing more. I like the way my Sporebat looks, and I want to be able to use it for everything I do in-game. I could care less if it can buff me or do some totally unique thing from other pets.
Raze Apr 19th 2008 4:48AM
Call me corny, but comparing a Hunter pet to another spell or ability, or even a Warlock's demon, isn't quite right.
For one thing, Hunter pets must be named, fed, and revived at considerable mana cost whenever they are killed. In addition, we have to go out and hand-pick a beast to be tamed. If we were intended to be completely detached from the entire process of using a pet, than why not dish us all out generically named cookie-cutter beasts made to fit three different roles, like Warlock demons?
In fact, that's why the original normalization rules were put into effect. The intention was to diversify the Hunter pets used, so that Broken Tooth and other 1.5 attack speed pets weren't the only beasts of choice. But once again the Min/Max game reared its ugly head: pets without two focus dumps and the ability to dash or dive, i.e: nearly every pet family in the game, proved useless when it came to raiding and instances. Ultimately, if all our class does is DPS, why would be bring anything along but a cat, ravager, or wind serpent?
I don't speak for most hunters, but I simply want all hunter pets to at least be on par with all others. Realism isn't a factor with the beasts when turtles now move and attack as fast as tigers do.
chonk Apr 21st 2008 3:33AM
I tamed my Scorpid a long long time ago because he had a nice-looking skin and it was an adventure to run across the world at level 12 to find him. He's been by my side ever since and in the past I would get a couple whispers per day asking about my pet.
I hadn't really kept up on the arena, so I couldn't figure out why everyone seems to have a scorpid these days. Now I know, and I think the article raises some good points. I'd definitely like to see more abilities and options for pets so Hunters arent' pigeon-holed into having one specific pet type just to be competitive.
Whatever happens, though, I'll probably stick with the pet I've got now.