Dungeon depth in the past, present and future
by Alex Ziebart 
Apr 19th 2008 at 11:00AM
Bornakk chimes in to say that The Burning Crusade dungeon design was heavily influenced by player feedback, wishing for more Scarlet Monastery-esque dungeons. I can see that, and to an extent, I agree with that, too. Scarlet Monastery, while shorter and more linear, was also pretty cool.
Personally, I don't think that it really comes down to one or the other. Take Dire Maul, for instance. Each wing could be tackled in a straightforward, linear fashion. However, each of them also had alternative routes, and some of them even had alternative ways of defeating them. For example, Tribute Runs in Dire Maul: North. Plus, they were even connected via the library. If you really want to, you could go from one wing to the other without any loading screen.
Stratholme was also mostly linear. You go in the side you want to do, you kill the bosses in your way, and you kill the boss at the end of that side. However, there were also extra bosses you could do if you wanted to take a turn off of the main road. If you wanted to do the other half of the dungeon for some reason once you've finished the first, you can fight your way over there. It gave these dungeons the feeling of being much larger than they actually were, not to mention more 'epic.' There were a lot of little side quests you could do in addition to the main, linear dungeon.
I don't think the problem is that there are too many short dungeons. The problem is none of them have anything that can be done outside of the norm, like alternate routes you can take or things of that sort. Short is good. Options and side quests are also good. That being said, the Utgarde Keep preview Blizzard gave us awhile back makes it seem like they have realized some of this. The preview mentions additional rooms on Heroic mode and things of that sort, so maybe this has been addressed in one way or another.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Haliarr Apr 19th 2008 11:16AM
Personally I like ZG and ZA as the best 2 instances Blizz has done.
Lets hope the xp has more like those. I would love to see a frozen tundra outdoor instance!
Jamal Apr 20th 2008 6:26PM
your logic doesnt make sense. someone could just fly right over the entire instance...lol
Haliarr Apr 21st 2008 8:37AM
What does logic have to do with this?
Arya Apr 19th 2008 11:33AM
Blackrock Depths is one of my favorite instances. Yes, I've run it many times and any instance you run over and over will get stale. However, the layout of the instance and grand size give it an "epic" feeling that I think is missing in most instances in the game. Also the tavern in the middle of an instance is fantastic.
Blizzard seems to get tunnel vision when they design things. The Burning Crusade instances all seem like relatively short hallways. It would be great to have a mixture of different types of instances. Short hallway, multi-wing, sprawling complex, etc. This caters to multiple playstyles at the same time while providing a richer experience for players.
I'd like to see an underground city complex that is only accessible to those who have travelled through an instance. As a sort of reward and adventure hub for players in advanced progression.
Eternalpayn Apr 19th 2008 11:51AM
I actually wrote up a set of design theories for a portable MMO that was almost just that. Basically, the principle of it's instances was to combine that epic feel, with short wings. Because people expect being able to play a portable game for 15-30 minutes, dungeons can't be long. So, every 15 to 20 minutes, there would be a bit of a pit stop, be it a town, a big city, or a refugee camp. This would have repairs, reagents, etc. Also, it wouldn't be instanced, so if you had someone who had to go, you could pick somebody up. This way, I could continue the same dungeon for 2-3 hours to get to the end. Also, this game would use a meeting stone kind of thing, but with different requirements for inner-stones. If I have never made it to the 5th pit stop, I can't be summoned there. However, if I've been to the 4th pit stop, I could be summoned, or fly on my own, to there. That way you wouldn't have to play for 3 hours in one session to see the final boss in a dungeon.
Geo Lara Apr 19th 2008 12:07PM
I hope never to run an instance like Black Rock Depths again. Granted it was epic feeling, it was cohesive in vibe and design regardless of what area you were in, unlike the Coilfang instances.
There is one huge problem with BRD - pugging it is a nightmare.
No one I've grouped with was ever on the same quest chains. Pugging BRD required a level of compromise that usually meant you could turn in the crumpled note for the Windsor chain but not do the escort quest. You could go kill Incidius but not much else. Everyone wanted to do the arena, but no one ever seem to want to get the Shadowforge key.
It was also annoying that no one ever seem to know their way around the map (Atlas didn't help much with that either). If you're new at running BRD, being with a party that got lost sucked.
Granted BRD was not designed to full clear in a session, but having pugged BRD everyday for a full week just to get a handful of quests done (and never seeing the emperor), was just too exhausting and leaves that place with a bitter taste in my mouth.
While BC instances may not feel epic, I think players like having a sense of accomplishment of doing a full clear and being able to accomplish divergent goals like getting Kara key frags without big compromises.
Whome Apr 19th 2008 12:13PM
@Eternalpayn
That sounds brilliant! And, I totally agree with the 15-30 minute time window.
Eternalpayn Apr 19th 2008 1:02PM
@Whome
Thanks, glad you liked it. I'm always happy to hear feedback on it, especially when it's good! :P
@Geo
I feel you with the pugging of BRD being a nightmare. I hated pugging that. It wasn't necessarily the lack of being on the same quests, but after the first quest, or the second quest, people would leave, because they did what they wanted. Then we'd have to find someone to replace them, go out, resummon, and they'd only do one quest and then leave.
Macoy Apr 19th 2008 2:06PM
I would like to see more outdoor instances. But I like the idea that the Heroic level would open up more rooms and such. Thus allowing the "casual" player to run the shorter instance if time was limited but then tackle the longer and more complex instances on Heroic.
Firen Apr 19th 2008 12:05PM
@arya i totally agree with what you are saying
instances such as blackrock depth's have the feeling that you are actually in the game, in the lore. The amazing architecture and the sheer size of the instance are epic. More instances like this, that have heart and feeling. More instances where you feel like you are in the game and in the lore, and it seems like you are making a difference!
Gryphon Hall Apr 19th 2008 12:11PM
What I hope they will be able to do later (if technologically possible) are zone "instances"... that is, one instance that leads to another with rests in between. I thought Karazhan was epic enough, but does not compare to BRD. In BRD, you can actually imagine an entire civilization down there. So I was disappointed that Hellfire Citadel was that relatively "small" affair.
But I trust the Blizzard designers—they're not staying static. One secret wish is a lvl 70+ extension to the Deadmines, actually.
Solex Apr 19th 2008 12:50PM
I liked BM a lot, but what I want to less of is the "stop-mark-fight-loot" mentality. I'd love to see more epic fights.
Fight a magnataur while your melee has to attack the legs which have a seperate life bar, if you "kill them" the magnataur falls over, while your mages and such hurl flames at it's face to keep it blinded to do less damage to the tank.
Do a 25 man where 10 people have to go one way and 15 go another and you have to meet at one spot within a certain amount of time.
I want to see a monster that's so massive that when I see it, I'll think that blizz made a mistake and this is a 40 man.
Eternalpayn Apr 19th 2008 1:06PM
I like the splitting up of a big raid idea. It might not work too well with an odd number, but it could be fantastic. Also, one thing that could be interesting is if for one of the last raids was expected to take twice to three times as long as kara, (maybe on a 2 week timer?) and have parts like that, where one person has to go off and do something, while the others hold off mobs in a BRD-style arena event.
Matt Apr 19th 2008 1:24PM
I personally feel that that all the 5 man dungeons for BC are very bland quest wise. most have maybe 3 quests. And while thats fine it would be nice if there were more of those long quest lines that took you back.
As for the nothing but hall ways comments I agree completely however I would add that UBRS was very like that too. But that place felt huge. Maybe thats because in certain places you could fall all the way down to LBRS..., but as a whole it always felt like something important was going on there. On the upside It looks like Utgarde Keep will be UBRS like which is good.
Prometheus Apr 19th 2008 1:42PM
@Eternalpayn
Your idea for a mobile MMO sounds a bit like Guild Wars, but without the instanced out areas.
Heilig Apr 19th 2008 2:14PM
"BC instance design was influenced by player feedback, wishing for more Scarlet Monastery-esque dungeons."
Well, yeah, but no. We didn't want 4 small short dungeons in the same place. We wanted multiple dungeons that were connected with an overarching story line that felt like you were building to something as you completed them. You have to work your way through Doan to get the key, then go kill off Herod to break their army, and finally wade through the inner sanctum to take on the Commander and High Priestess of the order.
Compare that to Auchindoun. One is stopping black rituals of renegade draenei, one is stopping a usurping ethereal from plundering the place, one is stopping a crazy bird from taking over his tribe, and the last one is stopping the Burning Blade (Really? The Burning Blade? We couldn't find a better group to be the final people in Auch?) from opening a gate to another dimension. The only thing any of these instance have in common is their location. The same thing applies to Coilfang and TK. That is not what we asked for.
If all of Auch had been about working your way through the ranks of the Burning Blade and building up to dropping the Big Bad, THAT would have been what we asked for.
Scott Apr 19th 2008 4:29PM
Shadow Council != Burning Blade
glorft Apr 19th 2008 3:26PM
I personally miss instances like BRD and Scholo and had like a dozen bosses, few of which were mandatory to proceed. I miss the bosses that needed quests to be summoned or that had some kind of script/encounter. Like you had to summon Gandling by killing the 6 minibosses or the Ring of the Law. All I've seen in BC are one-way dungeons with a handfull of bosses, all of which are necessary to reach the end. There has been a total absence of lore and it just feels like moving from point A to point B rather than "Hey lets take this detour and then take that left!"
Theadrick Apr 19th 2008 4:39PM
I agree. I miss dungeons that you could actually get LOST in. "Classic" WoW had much better dungeon design as far as scope and feel. One annoying thing is that the instances for the most part in TBC are basically like a Disney theme park ride on rails. It pushes you in one direction with no interesting little side passages or rooms which may or may not be related to the "boss" of the dungeon.
Draele Apr 19th 2008 4:42PM
I don't see why we can't have both. Options are what we need to have. Short dungeons are great if you don't have a large block of time. Long dungeons are awesome if you do have the time. Blizzard shouldn't try to create a "dungeon model" for WotLK and just create several different types of 5-mans so there is choice and everyone is happy.